How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

TonyMaloney · 15-09-2020 11:29AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Is there any official guidance on keeping windows open? I didn't see any one window open this morning. Had to ask the teacher.

https://twitter.com/jljcolorado/status/1305634728523886593?s=20

Practical Steps for the Deployment of Good Ventilation Practices in Schools

The Roadmap for the Full Return to School incorporates all the detailed guidance documents
and communication materials which are referenced (but not necessarily replicated) in the
summary document, all of which are available at www.gov.ie/backtoschool. This includes the
public health advice from the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC) and the Return to
Work Safely Protocol developed by the Health & Safety Authority.

The Public Health Advice for the re-opening of schools and educational facilities makes two
specific references to ventilation practices which schools should consider, and if appropriate
to their specific school context, implement

“Consider if room ventilation especially in classrooms can be improved without causing
discomfort. Where possible the opening of doors and windows should be encouraged
to increase natural ventilation ……. .” (Section 5.6 Environmental Hygiene); and
“Increase air flow and ventilation where climate allows (open windows, use air
conditioning where available, etc.)” (Section 8.1, checklists for School Management,
Teachers and Staff)

In addition, section 7 of the Return to Work Safely Protocol notes that
Air conditioning is not generally considered as contributing significantly to the spread
of COVID-19. Switching off air conditioning is not required to manage the risk of
COVID-19. For organisations without air conditioning adequate ventilation is
encouraged, for example, by opening windows where feasible etc.
The completion and implementation of the COVID-19 Response Plan by a school is the means
through which schools can best prevent the introduction and spread of COVID-19 and
demonstrate that they are operating in accordance with the requirements of the Roadmap, the
Public Health advice and the Return to Work Protocol, and other detailed guidance provided
by the Department.
The following practical measures for the deployment of good ventilation practices in schools
should be considered by schools in the implementation of their COVID-19 Response Plans,

1. The opening of windows to introduce fresh air is very important and should continue to
be used during school opening times via a proactive rather than reactive approach.

2. Achieving fresh air via a number of windows partially opened as required rather than
one window fully open can help to maximise the use of window driven natural
ventilation distribution across the room without causing discomfort.

3. In colder weather any local chilling effect can be offset by opening the windows nearest
and above the radiators.

4. Consideration should be given to local circumstances that may require to have
additional windows open such as after break time activities.

5. Rooms with adequate fresh air should not be stuffy or have condensation on the
window glass.

6. Schools should also ensure that all permanent ventilation openings in rooms are fully
open and not blocked by wall hangings etc. These normally are either a circular or
rectangle ventilation grill on the external classroom wall or linear slot type ventilators
built into the window frames. All of these should be opened all the time, if they have
been taped and sealed for decorating purposes then the tape/sealing should be
removed.

7. All mechanical ventilation systems and any air conditioning systems should be set to
100% fresh air, any air conditioning units that cannot operate on 100% fresh air should
be left off. Check with unit suppliers if in doubt.

https://assets.gov.ie/85177/d9643a37-5254-483e-a72e-d2a08ae36d46.pdf

Lillyfae · 15-09-2020 11:32AM

Schools are saying that the guidelines aren't clear or robust, but they're just totally ignoring them anyway??

DSN · 15-09-2020 11:34AM

Boggles wrote: »

Fúcking proper order. :eek:

That snot waterfall didn't just start at 9.01.

Covid aside, he shouldn't have been let near a school.

You'd keep a kid home for runny nose now? Not saying they should not have sent him home as he clearly was uncomfortable after being indoors couple hours with mask & trying to manage the situation, but I do believe it was just a blocked nose in the morn & given a pack of tissues!
Anyway agree its a gross aspect of mask wearing & esp. teenagers I had not considered!

tscul32 · 15-09-2020 11:45AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Anyone know if there's specific guidance re singing etc in classes (primary)? Seems my kid's third class are singing away (sitting down).

My kid in third class said teacher told them they wouldn't be doing any singing for the time being.

15-09-2020 11:46AM

Boggles wrote: »

Fúcking proper order. :eek:

That snot waterfall didn't just start at 9.01.

Covid aside, he shouldn't have been let near a school.

Snot waterfall's, as you say, can just start from nowhere. Myself this morning, had a couple of sneezes after 9, and the goo just started after that, so headed off home as have the option. No other symptoms by the way

Lillyfae · 15-09-2020 11:55AM

tscul32 wrote: »

My kid in third class said teacher told them they wouldn't be doing any singing for the time being.

Ya, the guidance was posted by someone a few pages back after (SusanC10??) questioned the mixing of 2 different classes of 30 at her child's school for choir practice. So there are 2 not bothering to follow guidelines. Them and the ones sending children into isolation for non Covid related symptoms and teachers who somehow after years of spending all day with children don't realise that children can develop symptoms in the blink of an eye and recover just as quickly. Sure if I asked mine if they were sick yesterday they would say yes, because they're not completely sure of the difference between yesterday and 3 years ago :rolleyes:

JDD · 15-09-2020 12:04PM

Runny nose and sneezing - with no other symptoms - isn't covid. It's a cold. I've asked my neighbour GP twice about this.

Should a kid be kept home from school because of a sneeze and a runny nose? No. They can learn perfectly well while wiping their nose. Is it some sort of travesty to send them in in case they infect the child beside them with a cold? No! Feck sake, runny noses are part and parcel of childhood. They have to build up their immune system, and part of that is being exposed to the million different rhino viruses out there. No social distancing and mask wearing are going to stop the 200 different common cold viruses that circulate every winter, and like every other winter we have to accept that our children will get these viruses, they will be fine, and they can attend school. Mild common colds are more of an inconvenience than an illness.

Of course, if the child has a temperature, or a sore throat, or a headache or is very tired, keep them at home. They'd be miserable in school and probably wouldn't learn anything anyway.

wirelessdude01 · 15-09-2020 12:15PM

PCros wrote: »

My kids school has had window's open every day since they went back. It's almost like clockwork each morning.

Sure its nearly 20 degrees at the moment.

Its unlikely to continue into the winter though.

Our parents have been told to make sire that they have appropriate layers on their children as the windows and doors will be kept open no matter the weather.

Lillyfae · 15-09-2020 12:17PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Our parents have been told to make sire that they have appropriate layers on their children as the windows and doors will be kept open no matter the weather.

Great, but the weather's fine now and the school isn't opening the window. There isn't an excuse for it.

PCros · 15-09-2020 12:20PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Our parents have been told to make sire that they have appropriate layers on their children as the windows and doors will be kept open no matter the weather.

As in jackets on? Ours go with shirt and jumper as a standard.

I guess it really comes down to the location of the classrooms, if its a suntrap you'll get away with it in the winter.

BonsaiKitten · 15-09-2020 12:53PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Anyone know if there's specific guidance re singing etc in classes (primary)? Seems my kid's third class are singing away (sitting down).

Yes, singing is allowed under the guidance. In fact if you look at this Insta link (which is taken directly from guidance) you'll see it could be interpreted as being encouraged.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEHuVvDhq73/?igshid=vmyij1v4hzoe

Lillyfae · 15-09-2020 01:02PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Yes, singing is allowed under the guidance. In fact if you look at this Insta link (which is taken directly from guidance) you'll see it could be interpreted as being encouraged.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEHuVvDhq73/?igshid=vmyij1v4hzoe

It's really not being encouraged at all. Just because it's posted on Twitter/ Facebook/ Instagram does not make it fact. History Queen posted here:

History Queen wrote: »

This is the link for post primary guidance:

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/4f33c-impact-of-covid-19-on-certain-school-activities-covid-19-response-plan-for-safe-re-opening-of-post-primary-schools/#choirmusic-performance

I screenshot the relevant part here also, I haven't read the primary guidelines as I'm a postprimary teacher but I assume the guidance is similar. Saying that, with the Department you'd never know.

Edit: i found the primary guidance, as I suspected it is the same as secondary with regard to choirs

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b1533-impact-of-covid-19-on-certain-school-activities/#choirmusic-performance

People are not careful enough when fact checking.

screamer · 15-09-2020 01:30PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Yes, singing is allowed under the guidance. In fact if you look at this Insta link (which is taken directly from guidance) you'll see it could be interpreted as being encouraged.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEHuVvDhq73/?igshid=vmyij1v4hzoe

Singing.... hmm wasn’t there a choir somewhere that had a large covid outbreak because they were practising together in a group and that singing is a really great way to transmit covid...... I’d be calling the school to talk to the principal about it TBH

munchkin_utd · 15-09-2020 01:35PM

screamer wrote: »

Singing.... hmm wasn’t there a choir somewhere that had a large covid outbreak because they were practising together in a group and that singing is a really great way to transmit covid...... I’d be calling the school to talk to the principal about it TBH

yep, and a few of them died as a result

in Germany a few bible bashing russian baptist churches also decided to ignore advice and they too (in multiple churches at different locations) managed to see Covid spread like wildfire.

josip · 15-09-2020 01:45PM

screamer wrote: »

Singing.... hmm wasn’t there a choir somewhere that had a large covid outbreak because they were practising together in a group and that singing is a really great way to transmit covid...... I’d be calling the school to talk to the principal about it TBH

I think this is the choir you had in mind.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/13/us/coronavirus-washington-choir-outbreak-trnd/index.html

SusanC10 · 15-09-2020 01:49PM

Our daughter's Primary had what they called "Choir Practice" last week. I couldn't get through on the phone so emailed my concerns. I got a call back yesterday to say that it wouldn't be happening again. My distinct impression was that mine was not the only complaint.

Boggles · 15-09-2020 01:55PM

DSN wrote: »

You'd keep a kid home for runny nose now?

If he is producing enough mucus to fill a mask then yes, I'm not going to send him in to sit a foot away from his peers to put up with that for 6 hours, that would hardly be fair.

It's just basic decorum.

Or would you think it acceptable I sit a foot away from you in work and play the vesuvius trombone for the day?

No you wouldn't.

BonsaiKitten · 15-09-2020 01:57PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

It's really not being encouraged at all. Just because it's posted on Twitter/ Facebook/ Instagram does not make it fact. History Queen posted here:

People are not careful enough when fact checking.

Have you read the full guidance for primary schools? I have. I'll take your critique about fact checking if/ when you've read the full documents, thanks. That Insta post is to simplify it for those who have not read it.

I don't agree with singing being in the guidance myself but it is there. The guidance from History Queen refers to choirs, not classes...people aren't careful enough with their fact checking, eh?

Boggles · 15-09-2020 01:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Snot waterfall's, as you say, can just start from nowhere. Myself this morning, had a couple of sneezes after 9, and the goo just started after that, so headed off home as have the option. No other symptoms by the way

Jaysus, you have the best timing with your stories to back up other stories.

It's a gift.

rob316 · 15-09-2020 01:59PM

Boggles wrote: »

If he is producing enough mucus to fill a mask then yes, I'm not going to send him in to sit a foot away from his peers to put up with that for 6 hours, that would hardly be fair.

It's just basic decorum.

Or would you think it acceptable I sit a foot away from you in work and play the vesuvius trombone for the day?

No you wouldn't.

So we shouldn't go to work or send our kids to school if we/they have a runny nose? That's ridiculous.

Boggles · 15-09-2020 02:02PM

rob316 wrote: »

So we shouldn't go to work or send our kids to school if we/they have a runny nose? That's ridiculous.

There is a stark different between a sniffle and a person expelling enough mucus to fill a mask.

Lillyfae · 15-09-2020 02:07PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Have you read the full guidance for primary schools? I have. I'll take your critique about fact checking if/ when you've read the full documents, thanks. That Insta post is to simplify it for those who have not read it.

I don't agree with singing being in the guidance myself but it is there. The guidance from History Queen refers to choirs, not classes...people aren't careful enough with their fact checking, eh?

Sorry, what is the difference between 30 children singing in unison and a choir, exactly??

The Insta post is a load of airy fairy rubbish. Link to the exact guidance on singing, please?

15-09-2020 02:25PM

Boggles wrote: »

Jaysus, you have the best timing with your stories to back up other stories.

It's a gift.

Maybe it's psychosomatic with all the snot talk, but can assure you its real. Allergies

BonsaiKitten · 15-09-2020 03:12PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sorry, what is the difference between 30 children singing in unison and a choir, exactly??

The Insta post is a load of airy fairy rubbish. Link to the exact guidance on singing, please?

Ah so you HAVEN'T read the guidance! Ok well then I'm definitely not taking critique from you :pac:

The insta post is a series of direct quotes from the government guidelines so if you have an issue with the waffliness of it - Lord knows I do - take it up with the Government. You can access the guidelines freely on gov.ie, just like everyone else who wants to read them.

I'm not wasting time on engaging with you further on this if you don't know what you are talking about.

Lillyfae · 15-09-2020 03:23PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Ah so you HAVEN'T read the guidance! Ok well then I'm definitely not taking critique from you :pac:

The insta post is a series of direct quotes from the government guidelines so if you have an issue with the waffliness of it - Lord knows I do - take it up with the Government. You can access the guidelines freely on gov.ie, just like everyone else who wants to read them.

I'm not wasting time on engaging with you further on this if you don't know what you are talking about.

Can you link to the guidance you’re referring to then? I’ve looked and can’t find it. I did link to the post primary guidance previously and it’s pretty clear.

15-09-2020 03:47PM

The Government didn't say don't sing under any circumstances. The guidance is to do it under social distancing and in well ventilated spaces. For the average classroom in a primary school here, the social distancing isn't possible because of the size of the classes and some schools even had a go at combining classes indoors for the sing song. Some schools are leaving windows open, some are not. So unless they can herd the kids out into the open and make them socially distance from each other, possibly in excess of the 2m and all face away from each other, then from all the research (it's widely available) it would be best to avoid the singing and if your kids are being forced into it, I would take it up with the school.

I wouldn't be risking anyone's life on what the Department of Education or gov.ie says in guidelines written weeks ago. Especially as they are keeping very quiet about the location and the amount of schools with Covid cases now.

PowerToWait · 15-09-2020 04:01PM

Balagan1 wrote: »

I wouldn't be risking anyone's life on what the Department of Education or gov.ie says in guidelines written weeks ago. Especially as they are keeping very quiet about the location and the amount of schools with Covid cases now.

Someone said to me at lunch today there are 90 schools where cases have been detected...? Does anyone know if that’s true? I’ve not seen it in any news reports.

JP Liz V1 · 15-09-2020 04:03PM

4th Cork school with a confirmed case

wirelessdude01 · 15-09-2020 04:05PM

PowerToWait wrote: »

Someone said to me at lunch today there are 90 schools where cases have been detected...? Does anyone know if that’s true? I’ve not seen it in any news reports.

Would say it is over 100 at this stage. It isn't being reported by the msm. You'd kinda think that they've been told not to report on it.

deliege · 15-09-2020 04:06PM

PowerToWait wrote: »

Someone said to me at lunch today there are 90 schools where cases have been detected...? Does anyone know if that’s true? I’ve not seen it in any news reports.

Very little news reports about this - it's only some citizens that try to keep count of schools with cases. Here's one (she only includes schools in her counts when verified):

https://twitter.com/schools_19

How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

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