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How will schools be able to go back in September?

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Comments

  • #8912
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    grind gremlin wrote: »
    Do schools get the blame when the unworkable doesn’t work? This could be a catastrophe in the making.

    Honestly, yes. Most parents are reasonable, 90% I'd say. 10% are awkward, but it's the awkward ones that stir up the storm, and to be fair sometimes quite rightly so.

    The classrooms aren't big enough, why can't you use x measure, you explain that, but surely my sons year gets priority because, you need to make that happen... Then you go change ty or first year and they are up in arms. Then you go back to square one. The power of the parent is huge, the fear of the phone equally huge. Again, with the history of education in Ireland, possibly rightly so.

    But on this one, if you search my posts, I've been offering suggestions and comments to the DES for months. Talking to people here who think the DES are playing a blinder. People attack what they can see. And unfortunately it's the principal who will get it.

    Then that principal will retire or resign, they will all swap around, and you just have parents toxic at schools yet again while McSharry as a TD swans off for 6 weeks.


  • #8913
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    The poster mustn't have read what the dept. is publishing because it mentions the exact size room the poster has and gives guidance


    The use of face coverings/visors must be implemented where the 1 metre distance cannot be achieved. For example:
    more than 24 students in a 49sq classroom that has been fully cleared
    more than 20 students in a 42sqm classroom.

    Satellite rooms

    So which part of this is the poster unable to make work?

    There also seems to be an issue with toilets? People in work places go to the toilet without all the drama the teachers are imagining.

    OK I'll bite again. We have discussed masks at length and the overall consensus from parents seems to be, no masks (and fringey will love that).

    Now, satellite rooms. We have none. There are no other rooms to use other than corridors and passageways. Where do kids go. Who supervises them. How does it actually work?


  • #8914
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Read the guidance. Why ignore it. You implement it ad much as you can .

    Ignoring it and hoping for the best is akin to hiding back under the bed

    What resources have you askedyour principal for regarding extra space, satellite rooms etc?

    I didn't ignore it. Implemented best I can. Insufficient. We have 24 classes in the school. Do you suggest we build 24 over Flow rooms in 4 weeks?


  • #8915
    the corpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭the corpo


    I've seen a few of you referencing an upcoming ECDC report, is there one specific to school reopening coming or have I misunderstood?
    Don't see any reference online.


  • #8916
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    OK I'll bite again. We have discussed masks at length and the overall consensus from parents seems to be, no masks (and fringey will love that).

    Now, satellite rooms. We have none. There are no other rooms to use other than corridors and passageways. Where do kids go. Who supervises them. How does it actually work?
    In a 42m2 room with more than 20 pupils masks can be worn it's there I black and white in what the dept. Issued

    Have you checked out the local community centre or parish hall? No sports hall or gym in the school?


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  • #8917
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    grind gremlin wrote: »
    Do schools get the blame when the unworkable doesn’t work? This could be a catastrophe in the making.

    According to the risk assessment guidance.
    There is an onus on the teachers to bring solutions to the health and safety hazards.

    This being a once in a hundred year event with a biosafety level 4 pathogen,
    I personally don't think that's fair. Especially considering that they won't even acknowledge it's airborne as pointed out by boggles.


  • #8918
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    In a 42m2 room with more than 20 pupils masks can be worn it's there I black and white in what the dept. Issued

    Have you checked out the local community centre or parish hall?

    OK, again. There are 6 schools in the locality. Can we all avail of the hall. What classes do you put in the hall. Do teachers shuttle to and from there? How do you assign classes.

    I like the way you've now accepted your design is unworkable and are now insisting on masks being worn.

    When we sort this out we can talk about masks which has been done to death and is just a distraction really.


  • #8919
    Lyle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Lyle


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Anyone have the numbers for kids who have tested positive?

    0 - 4 191
    5 - 14 347

    Older teens are hard to estimate, there are 1,985 cases in the 15 - 24 age bracket.

    Source: https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/c662d-statement-from-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-thursday-30th-july/#age-range-affected

    0 - 14 represents 2% of our total cases.


  • #8920
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    OK, again. There are 6 schools in the locality. Can we all avail of the hall. What classes do you put in the hall. Do teachers shuttle to and from there? How do you assign classes.

    I like the way you've now accepted your design is unworkable and are now insisting on masks being worn.

    When we sort this out we can talk about masks which has been done to death and is just a distraction really.

    Also you reduced my class of 30 to 20 for your example. That's a third. So if there are 600 in my school, you are consigning 200 to local halls and parishes... That aren't equipped for school. Have no furniture or connections. Who cleans those halls?
    And the pe Hall being used, how many classes do you have on the go at the one time? What happens to pe if its raining.


  • #8921
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    OK, again. There are 6 schools in the locality. Can we all avail of the hall. What classes do you put in the hall. Do teachers shuttle to and from there? How do you assign classes.

    I like the way you've now accepted your design is unworkable and are now insisting on masks being worn.

    When we sort this out we can talk about masks which has been done to death and is just a distraction really.

    Here's an idea, have a meeting with your principal and colleagues and ask.


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  • #8922
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Here's an idea, have a meeting with your principal and colleagues and ask.

    Please no glib answers, an acknowledgement that there are legit grievances and concerns, share them, and help us lobby for a better change.

    You asked earlier have I asked my principal. I'm on the BOM. We contacted every politician, all other local schools, unions, the inspectorate, and the DES directly. We have received no further suggestions other than to await further instructions.

    Still until we hear anything further, please, either assist for the positive, or stivk to what you know, because social distancing m classrooms you have already proven is not your forte.


  • #8923
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Please no glib answers, an acknowledgement that there are legit grievances and concerns, share them, and help us lobby for a better change.

    You asked earlier have I asked my principal. I'm on the BOM. We contacted every politician, all other local schools, unions, the inspectorate, and the DES directly. We have received no further suggestions other than to await further instructions.

    Did you ask them could you use the parish hall?


  • #8924
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Did you ask them could you use the parish hall?

    We enquired about every appropriate avenue back in June. Most schools did the same. Care to answer any of my questions to you or are you going to keep up the obfuscation


  • #8925
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    caveat emptor wrote: »
    Sorry I didn't read right.

    essentially if everyone wears "surgical mask" type it blunts infection enough that nobody gets it (with other measures). Still possible.
    If one person i.e teacher wears it then it won't be enough if there's an outbreak. It essentially only stops YOUR droplets and aerosols from infecting others.
    If you were to were an fp3 respirator with goggles you'd be golden.
    caveat only works if there is no exhaust valve on the mask as if there was you'd be fine but if you contracted your exhaust gas would
    infect the class.

    potentially. Any questions. Let me know.


    Hears a summary. I don't think it's a good argument.


    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1288528942392057857?s=20

    So would I be covered with N95 masks


  • #8926
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    OK, again. There are 6 schools in the locality. Can we all avail of the hall. What classes do you put in the hall. Do teachers shuttle to and from there? How do you assign classes.

    I like the way you've now accepted your design is unworkable and are now insisting on masks being worn.

    When we sort this out we can talk about masks which has been done to death and is just a distraction really.
    Smacruairi wrote: »
    We enquired about every appropriate avenue back in June. Most schools did the same. Care to answer any of my questions to you or are you going to keep up the obfuscation

    I am answering your question. If you already asked for the hall in june, why ask me if you can use it or if 6 schools at once can use it? Is that not something that came up in the conversation?

    I would suggest you get back together with your principal, colleagues and bom and start making phone calls tomorrow to clarify of they are available or not.


  • #8927
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    I am answering your question. If you already asked for the hall in june, why ask me if you can use it or if 6 schools at once can use it? Is that not something that came up in the conversation?

    Because I know the answer was, no, it's insufficient. So again, strike that one out. You are now back to square one of 30 kids in a room for 20 as per DES loose guidelines. So now what. Do you think I'm making things up here? Do you think that the people who work in the buildings haven't gone down every single avenue? That's why so many of us are in shock.

    It's like you asking me for a loan of 100 and when I don't have it, you just keep saying, but check your other pocket. And even when I show you my pockets you still think I'm hiding it on you.


  • #8928
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Because I know the answer was, no, it's insufficient. So again, strike that one out. You are now back to square one of 30 kids in a room for 20 as per DES loose guidelines. So now what. Do you think I'm making things up here? Do you think that the people who work in the buildings haven't gone down every single avenue? That's why so many of us are in shock.

    It's like you asking me for a loan of 100 and when I don't have it, you just keep saying, but check your other pocket. And even when I show you my pockets you still think I'm hiding it on you.

    The community wont let the school use the hall? Or you didnt actually ask?

    Because that would be a bit like me saying you wont lend me 100 when i never asked you to lend me a 100.


  • #8929
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    The community wont let the school use the hall? Or you didnt actually ask?

    The premises is inadequate for housing classes owing to insurance, cleaning, and would only hold 45 anyway. We need 200 according to your own model. So we have no where else for the 155. And that's just our school, there are 5 others.

    So back to my questions to you, seeing as you have totally abandoned your attempt to fit 30 in a room which you haven't held your hand up on yet to say, yeah my bad.

    You don't have any answers. That's fine. We are very very quickly running out ourselves. So now when we go after the higher ups you will suppprt us, right?


  • #8930
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    The premises is inadequate for housing classes owing to insurance, cleaning, and would only hold 45 anyway. We need 200 according to your own model. So we have no where else did the 155. And that's just our school, there are 5 others.

    So back to my questions to you, seeing as you have totally abandoned your attempt to fit 30 in a room which you haven't held your hand up on yet to say, yeah my bad.

    You don't have any answers. That's fine. We are very very quickly running out ourselves. So now when we go after the higher ups you will suppprt us, right?

    The dept. Are providing extra funding for cleaning. Insurance, what did the dept. Say about that when you asked them? We has classes in a local community centre for a period, so the issue can be resolved.


    Anything else in the locality? The dit used to do exams in the rotunda and ucd in the rds. Anything like that about. How about local hotels with function rooms. Have you tried them all? Any indoor football places?

    I dont need to hold my hand up. The plan is according to guidelines for primary school. And it would be 45 students sorted.

    What higher ups are you going after and what are your demands?


  • #8931
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    The dept. Are providing extra funding for cleaning. Insurance, what did the dept. Say about that when you asked them? We has classes in a local community centre for a period, so the issue can be resolved.

    I dont need to hold my hand up. The plan is according to guidelines for primary school. And it would be 45 students sorted.

    What higher ups are you going after and what are your demands?

    Extra funds for cleaning is fine. I'm supportive of that. That's not the issue though, it's student numbers and social distancing that's the issue.

    The department doesn't pay insurance, the BOM does. Again, you aren't in education so you wouldn't know, but Jesus will you take my word on anything?

    When did you have classes in the local hall. Was it during socially distant pandemic? Did it have insurance? Otherwise not relevant.

    And the whole point of the threas is that the guidelines don't work. Now you're just waving a flag.

    45 students sorted, how do you pick them out of the 200?

    Higher ups being the DES. I've told you our demands.

    Like the public hospitals couldn't house the crisis at the start, that was fine... So the govt rented up all the pvt hospitals to accommodate... Why couldn't they have done that at the start of summer? Why couldn't they have rolled out consistent remote learning platforms like they were asked to. Why couldn't they afford flexibility in attendance and suppoet parents in extra time off. A million Diff suggestions we made but they went with, nah, see how you get on.that's the point we are making, and at this stage if you can't see it and think we are just lazy whingers then there is no hope at all.

    I think it's time to retire, you're done. You can text fringey and she can start up the same old arguments tomorrow instead.


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  • #8932
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    khalessi wrote: »
    So would I be covered with N95 masks

    They do a decent job of filtering and are very comfortable by comparison to cloth or surgical masks but they are pretty expensive too. Cloth and surgical are really there for us all to protect each other so your right in that they are pointless unless the kids are wearing them. Watch the n95 masks you buy too, a lot of fakes around. Get them from a reputable hardware or medical store, most good hardware have them for carpentry etc, we even had a fair few in the school.


  • #8933
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Extra funds for cleaning is fine. I'm supportive of that. That's not the issue though, it's student numbers and social distancing that's the issue.

    The department doesn't pay insurance, the BOM does. Again, you aren't in education so you wouldn't know, but Jesus will you take my word on anything?

    When did you have classes in the local hall. Was it during socially distant pandemic? Did it have insurance? Otherwise not relevant.

    And the whole point of the threas is that the guidelines don't work. Now you're just waving a flag.

    45 students sorted, how do you pick them out of the 200?

    Higher ups being the DES. I've told you our demands.

    Like the public hospitals couldn't house the crisis at the start, that was fine... So the govt rented up all the pvt hospitals to accommodate... Why couldn't they have done that at the start of summer? Why couldn't they have rolled out consistent remote learning platforms like they were asked to. Why couldn't they afford flexibility in attendance and suppoet parents in extra time off. A million Diff suggestions we made but they went with, nah, see how you get on.that's the point we are making, and at this stage if you can't see it and think we are just lazy whingers then there is no hope at all.

    I think it's time to retire, you're done. You can text fringey and she can start up the same old arguments tomorrow instead.

    2 teachers both wanted to be vice principal. The school went on strike. Exam classes had to have classes in the local centre so not to pass the picket. They made one of the teachers vice principal and the other special vice principal in the end. Yes we had insurance.

    Is the BOM not willing to pay if required?

    How do you pick the students? You sit down with your colleagues and your principal and your bom and you discuss a solution.

    What parents should they have supported with time off?most of the country wasnt working.

    You've done nothing yet


  • #8934
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    2 teachers both wanted to be vice principal. The school went on strike. Exam classes had to have classes in the local centre so not to pass the picket. They made one of the teachers vice principal and the other special vice principal in the end. Yes we had insurance.

    Is the BOM not willing to pay if required?

    How do you pick the students? You sit down with your colleagues and your principal and your bom and you discuss a solution.

    What parents should they have supported with time off?most of the country wasnt working.

    You've done nothing yet

    No it was totally unaffordable for the school, particularly when we don't know how long the situation will last and with no grants from the DES for this. Yes we asked, no they wouldn't.

    You tell 14 5 kids they can't come to school. Grand, see you in court. That's not an option and you know it.

    What parents? All parents. Tie it to child welfare payment. Very easily tracked and suggested. But nah, they didn't want to do that either seemingly.

    Done nothing yet? Well you never asked. But that's fine.

    You know for someone who has moaned about teachers looking for every reason not to go back in, you've tried to split hairs down to the atom, and are still not happy with the answers. How has it not crossed your mind yet that you should be having this out with the DES and not teachers and schools? Like, it's actually incredible.

    We have tds sitting in a convention centre at 50k a day. They weren't looking at remote scenarios, or looking to divide up tds, or looking for rotations etc. They just moved everyone to a plush place up the road that could let them continue as before but with social d. If you're happy with that but punching down on schools for trying their best for the last 4 months, man, what's wrong with you

    Also just realised all my suggestions are about educating everyone as they are all entitled. Several times you've tried to omit people and say tough. Reflect on that if you can and the reasons why.


  • #8935
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Our next step:D:D:pac::pac:

    https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2020/07/28/sheep-dipping-system-to-be-trialed-for-children-going-to-school/


  • #8936
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    No it was totally unaffordable for the school, particularly when we don't know how long the situation will last and with no grants from the DES for this. Yes we asked, no they wouldn't.

    You tell 14 5 kids they can't come to school. Grand, see you in court. That's not an option and you know it.

    What parents? All parents. Tie it to child welfare payment. Very easily tracked and suggested. But nah, they didn't want to do that either seemingly.

    Done nothing yet? Well you never asked. But that's fine.

    You know for someone who has moaned about teachers looking for every reason not to go back in, you've tried to split hairs down to the atom, and are still not happy with the answers. How has it not crossed your mind yet that you should be having this out with the DES and not teachers and schools? Like, it's actually incredible.

    We have tds sitting in a convention centre at 50k a day. They weren't looking at remote scenarios, or looking to divide up tds, or looking for rotations etc. They just moved everyone to a plush place up the road that could let them continue as before but with social d. If you're happy with that but punching down on schools for trying their best for the last 4 months, man, what's wrong with you

    Also just realised all my suggestions are about educating everyone as they are all entitled. Several times you've tried to omit people and say tough. Reflect on that if you can and the reasons why.

    How much was it? Many community centres have cover for groups using the hall and schools cover students on school related activities.

    What 145 students am I telling not to come to school? I'm giving ideas where they can go to school, so that's a bit of an odd point your making .

    You said in your last post that they should have supported parents by giving them time off. What do you want tied to child welfare??

    What people have I tried to omit? Nobody. I'm actively suggesting places and your shouting just shouting wont work. If I was on the bom I'd be making a lot of phone calls tomorrow and getting prices and availability of every local place suitable. This would provide a clearer picture.

    How much does the convention centre cost to rent? Will the bom pay for it? I doubt it if they refuse to pay for the local hall.


  • #8937
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    you aren't in education so you wouldn't know,

    you're just waving a flag.

    we are just lazy whingers then there is no hope at all.

    I think it's time to retire, you're done. You can text fringey and she can start up the same old arguments tomorrow instead.

    .


  • #8938
    ampie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 ✭ampie


    In the past 5 months I have yet to encounter a can do attitude amongst the teachers within my own circle and beyond.... just an observation. None of them ever talk about the detrimental effects of school lockdown on children...it’s all about their own fears and safety for themselves....Yet they are out and about, shopping, holidaying, dining out, socialising w friends etc all summer! No fears/ safety issues there. Just saying....they don’t really want to go back imo. Why would they, if they can stay home on full pay? I wouldn’t want to either! So stay home if you must, but on the €350 pup, Freeing up financial resources for new grads, subs etc who CAN commit to working ft. Unreasonable to expect schools to not open, and to expect childminders, parents etc to homeschool , as has been the case, for no extra pay for essentially doing YOUR job.


  • #8939
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    ampie wrote: »
    In the past 5 months I have yet to encounter a can do attitude amongst the teachers within my own circle and beyond.... just an observation. None of them ever talk about the detrimental effects of school lockdown on children...it’s all about their own fears and safety for themselves....Yet they are out and about, shopping, holidaying, dining out, socialising w friends etc all summer! No fears/ safety issues there. Just saying....they don’t really want to go back imo. Why would they, if they can stay home on full pay? I wouldn’t want to either! So stay home if you must, but on the €350 pup, Freeing up financial resources for new grads, subs etc who CAN commit to working ft. Unreasonable to expect schools to not open, and to expect childminders, parents etc to homeschool , as has been the case, for no extra pay for essentially doing YOUR job.

    Cool story bro.


  • #8940
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    ampie wrote: »
    In the past 5 months I have yet to encounter a can do attitude amongst the teachers within my own circle and beyond.... just an observation. None of them ever talk about the detrimental effects of school lockdown on children...it’s all about their own fears and safety for themselves....Yet they are out and about, shopping, holidaying, dining out, socialising w friends etc all summer! No fears/ safety issues there. Just saying....they don’t really want to go back imo. Why would they, if they can stay home on full pay? I wouldn’t want to either! So stay home if you must, but on the €350 pup, Freeing up financial resources for new grads, subs etc who CAN commit to working ft. Unreasonable to expect schools to not open, and to expect childminders, parents etc to homeschool , as has been the case, for no extra pay for essentially doing YOUR job.

    Burn them all.

    The issue I'd see with off-campus overflow arrangements is firstly staffing, you'd be looking for a number of extra teachers that don't exist and it creates supervision issues. As one teacher leaves to be back in the main building on time for the next class and another teacher makes their way up to off-campus location, some group is going to be unattended somewhere.

    Looking froward to getting back to school but expect it'll be nearly no SD so they'll be wearing masks.

    I have a number of classes of 24+ and we won't have staff to take the 'extra' students or spare rooms for streaming (there wud be extra students coming out of multiple classes) so I expect it'll be the usual class groupings with masks and no SD


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  • #8941
    BonsaiKitten
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭BonsaiKitten


    Perhaps our glorious leaders in the Department will do what this Tennessee district is doing for PPE. Have the local nuns say a few rosaries each day, perhaps?


This discussion has been closed.
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