CHAdeMO v CCS

McGiver · 14-07-2020 07:52AM

Stealthirl wrote:

As i said, plenty of life still left in CHAdeMO but Nissan should have switched to CCS with the 40's outside Japan [along with actual thermal battery management]

For sure. It's bizarre, it's like Sony selling a TV in EU with a Japanese plug... Nonsense.

graememk · 15-07-2020 07:51AM

The new Nissan has been announced, and it's CCS. (Well in Europe and US)

Last nail in the coffin for chademo then, (I know it will still need to be supported for at least another 15 yrs,)

It won't be getting the love at the hubs that CCS will.

Makes putting only 2 cables on the new hubs silly, and not offering a choice for charging 2 CCS on the new 150kw chargers

Dardania · 15-07-2020 09:05AM

graememk wrote: »

The new Nissan has been announced, and it's CCS. (Well in Europe and US)

Last nail in the coffin for chademo then, (I know it will still need to be supported for at least another 15 yrs,)

It won't be getting the love at the hubs that CCS will.

Makes putting only 2 cables on the new hubs silly, and not offering a choice for charging 2 CCS on the new 150kw chargers

Linkage?

And that is great news about going CCS

Edit: found it here: https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/nissansfirst-electric-suv-the-ariya-due-autumn-2021-39367308.html

Interesting use of 3-phase - must be adapting the Renault tech:

They claim fast range recovery and quick-charge performance with the CCS system. The 63kWh versions carry a 7.4 kW charger for domestic use, while the 87kWh include a 22kW 3-phase charger for charging at home. Charging capacity of up to 130kW is claimed.

ELM327 · 15-07-2020 09:20AM

DONG DONG DONGDONG DONG DONG DONG,DONG DONG, DONG DONG

That's chademo circling the drain

unkel · 15-07-2020 01:22PM

McGiver wrote: »

For sure. It's bizarre, it's like Sony selling a TV in EU with a Japanese plug... Nonsense.

And Sony refusing to sell you an adapter so you can use it with our 3 pin plugs. And then to add insult to injury, to expect the tax payer in this country to pay for installing sockets in your home so you can plug your Sony TV in

Stealthirl · 27-07-2020 12:06AM

From this report https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/11/1/18
Chademo is still more common then CCS by a fair bit :pac::pac:

liamog · 27-07-2020 12:20AM

I know it's completely anecdotal but I've seen a good few 202 EVs, no Leaf's yet. The wife and I have a few driving games, spotting EVs, new plates, and Mini's. I was overjoyed when my first 202 was a Mini EV, hit the trifecta!

The report data is from around Feb last year, here's the same chart with data up to June 2020, with only EVs included (no Outlander PHEVs). CCS cars really started to shoot up when the Kona entered the market.

ELM327 · 27-07-2020 09:42AM

You can add Tesla into the CCS as all new Teslas take CCS out of the box

Silent Running · 27-07-2020 09:46AM

Stealthirl wrote: »

From this report https://www.mdpi.com/2032-6653/11/1/18
Chademo is still more common then CCS by a fair bit :pac::pac:

It only shows it's more common at chargers. Since I've had my 64kWh battery CCS car I haven't had to visit chargers very much at all.

All that report shows is that Chademo cars need to visit chargers more than CCS cars.

innrain · 27-07-2020 10:18AM

Silent Running wrote: »

It only shows it's more common at chargers. Since I've had my 64kWh battery CCS car I haven't had to visit chargers very much at all.

All that report shows is that Chademo cars need to visit chargers more than CCS cars.

Not really it shows the number of registered cars
This is the caption of the image << Figure 1. Number of EVs equipped with charging category. >>

Old diesel · 27-07-2020 02:24PM

Autocar was talking to a lady from Nissan Europe.

Leaf is continuing with Chademo because according to Nissan Europe lady....

1) Leaf is sold as a 2nd car*.

2) they want to do the whole vehicle to grid thing and CCS is "still in early stages of that".

3) Ayria is intended to be a long distance car hence CCS on that.

Dont shoot the messenger

*Lets see the prices drop to reflect that

McGiver · 27-07-2020 02:55PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Can non Nissan cars use them though?
Can I just rock up in my Tesla? (Unlikely!)

Yeah you can, they can't stop you and chase you away IMHO.

The thing is, many of them are broken. Nissan Ireland apparently didn't buy in.

McGiver · 27-07-2020 02:57PM

unkel wrote: »

And Sony refusing to sell you an adapter so you can use it with our 3 pin plugs. And then to add insult to injury, to expect the tax payer in this country to pay for installing sockets in your home so you can plug your Sony TV in

Hahaha lol

Brilliant. If only it wasn't the reality of Nissan arrogance.

But they've conceded now. It was inevitable.

CCS is going to be the global standard. They can keep their own yokes in China and Japan but that's it.

McGiver · 27-07-2020 03:00PM

liamog wrote: »

I know it's completely anecdotal but I've seen a good few 202 EVs, no Leaf's yet. The wife and I have a few driving games, spotting EVs, new plates, and Mini's. I was overjoyed when my first 202 was a Mini EV, hit the trifecta!

The report data is from around Feb last year, here's the same chart with data up to June 2020, with only EVs included (no Outlander PHEVs). CCS cars really started to shoot up when the Kona entered the market.

CCS will capture the EU market eventually. I'd say it will be 50%+ market share in 1 year's time.

McGiver · 27-07-2020 03:05PM

Old diesel wrote: »

Autocar was talking to a lady from Nissan Europe.

Leaf is continuing with Chademo because according to Nissan Europe lady....

1) Leaf is sold as a 2nd car*.

2) they want to do the whole vehicle to grid thing and CCS is "still in early stages of that".

3) Ayria is intended to be a long distance car hence CCS on that.

Dont shoot the messenger

*Lets see the prices drop to reflect that

OMG. V2V and V2G is not the priority at all. First get the EVs en masse, and a unified simple charging standard helps a great deal with that. CCS can think about CCS3 or whatever version next with V2G capability in the mean time, plenty of time for developing V2G.

Nissan are truly deluded....

ELM327 · 27-07-2020 03:21PM

McGiver wrote: »

OMG. V2V and V2G is not the priority at all. First get the EVs en masse, and a unified simple charging standard helps a great deal with that. CCS can think about CCS3 or whatever version next with V2G capability in the mean time, plenty of time for developing V2G.

Nissan are truly deluded....

No one but edge cases gives a hoot about V2G or V2H

unkel · 27-07-2020 08:03PM

ELM327 wrote: »

No one but edge cases gives a hoot about V2G or V2H

V2G is extremely important as a way to "get rid" of excess renewables efficiently and to balance the grid. But not just yet. Only when the EV market penetration is considerably higher than it is now and when we have more renewables (and at times we produce more electricity than we consume)

Already in the UK there is an electricity provider that pays you sometimes to take their electricity

McGiver · 27-07-2020 09:24PM

unkel wrote:

V2G is extremely important as a way to "get rid" of excess renewables efficiently and to balance the grid. But not just yet. Only when the EV market penetration is considerably higher than it is now and when we have more renewables (and at times we produce more electricity than we consume)

Exactly. First get the EVs on the road. Then Nissan can speculate about V2G. So far they're not so good with the first task at the moment despite the great start, say until 2015.

They've been systematically screwing up since then. Compare it with the first BMW attempt in late 2014, that was a company that had (and still largely has) no interest about mass production of EVs.... Or Hyundai later on. Even VWs first attempt was more decent.

At this stage Nissan must be trolling or something

Such a great start and such bad streak after that.

Stealthirl · 28-07-2020 02:56AM

The big fail of the Leaf40 was no thermal battery management if you ask me not that it didn't have CCS (would have been nice to get both) as range goes up DC connection shouldn't be that much of a hurdle as we would need to charge less.

McGiver · 28-07-2020 10:22AM

Stealthirl wrote: »

The big fail of the Leaf40 was no thermal battery management if you ask me not that it didn't have CCS (would have been nice to get both) as range goes up DC connection shouldn't be that much of a hurdle as we would need to charge less.

Yes.

No thermal management.
Questionable cell chemistry.
No CCS.

It would have been a great car and market leader otherwise. Fatal mistake.

But maybe it was related to costs too? It was easier to carry on with the legacy system.

Manufacturing two versions of the car CCS vs Chademo surely costs more. As does thermal management. The same goes for better cells.

ELM327 · 28-07-2020 10:51AM

You have to remember that all versions of the leaf have underpinnings (drivetrain, bms, etc) that are from 2012-13.
It's purely cost savings, trying to milk every last dollar.

McGiver · 30-07-2020 12:40AM

ELM327 wrote:

You have to remember that all versions of the leaf have underpinnings (drivetrain, bms, etc) that are from 2012-13. It's purely cost savings, trying to milk every last dollar.

Yeah that's what I suspect...

30-07-2020 12:20PM

SHhhhhh, don't tell anyone that Leaf 2 is really a Leaf 1 with propilot and a larger battery.........

Silent Running · 30-07-2020 12:21PM

... and a new dress.

Zenith74 · 30-07-2020 01:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

SHhhhhh, don't tell anyone that Leaf 2 is really a Leaf 1 with propilot and a larger battery.........

Is there a car in the market that isn't almost entirely based on previous models? The Mk4 Golf looks little different to the Mk7, these models spanned nearly 22 years. The 2018 Leaf sharing components and similarities with the 2011 model is hardly a profound observation.

ELM327 · 30-07-2020 01:16PM

The engines and gearbox arent the same thouigh

Zenith74 · 30-07-2020 01:39PM

ELM327 wrote: »

The engines and gearbox arent the same thouigh

The Leaf fundamentally changed the batteries in that time period. They went from 4-cell-modules LMO chemistry, to 8-cell NMC to fully flexible modules which are now welded together instead of connected manually (better density). The battery capacity has gone 24/30/40/62kWh.

The motor was changed from an 80kW to 110kW to 150kW. The PDM has gone from 50kW DC charging to 75/100kW.

Gearbox is a little harder to quantify on an EV, but the latest Leaf adds single pedal driving which is sort of a gearbox improvement.

I'm no Golf expert, but from reading a bit on the various engines used I'd be surprised if the engine and gearbox has changed as significantly over that time period as the Leaf has.

By all means I'd agree that Nissan could have done more over the time, but to suggest the car has changed significantly less than most other cars in that time period is not accurate.

liamog · 30-07-2020 02:00PM

The battery pack, regen, and motor power, are all a function of the better battery technology. None of these are fundamental engineering platform changes.

If you double the battery pack, you can draw double the power (motor power) or add double the power (charging and regen) whilst maintaining the same battery stress.

Zenith74 · 30-07-2020 02:16PM

So changing the battery doesn't matter, the exterior doesn't matter, the improvements to the inverter and PDM don't matter, the self-driving/single-pedal-driving/other-new-tech don't matter, the changes to the motor don't matter.

I'm a bit stumped here chaps, there's not much left in there that hasn't changed. I mean I know the buttons for putting the windows up and down are the same, is that what you're taking issue with?

Kramer · 30-07-2020 03:11PM

Zenith74 wrote: »

there's not much left in there that hasn't changed.

The issue is the newer Leaf 40s & 62s use the same, almost 10 years old by now, inefficient motor & drivetrain, have no active cooling & an obsolete charging standard.

This, in an industry with rapidly improving technology & continuous improvements by ALL other manufacturers, could be a problem

.

I liked the Leaf 40 actually, it wasn't a bad proposition in early 2018, at the right price.
Now..............2020............plenty of newer competition, not so much.

CHAdeMO v CCS

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