CHAdeMO v CCS

Stealthirl

Originally posted as a reply but thought it was worth it's own thread

On the Chademo v CCS issue
Currently there are

Chademo
Nissan EVs registered here (leaf/ENV) - 3,239
The triplets (Mitsubishi I-MIEV/Peugeot Ion/Citroën C-Zero) - 18
Total = 3,257 (could not find any 1st gen soul EVs oddly )


CCS
Hyundai Kona - 1,084
Hyundai Ioniq - 460
E-Golf - 338
BMW i3 - 246
Kia Niro - 72
Kia e-Soul - 62
Audi e-tron - 44
Jaguar I-Pace - 42
Mercedes-Benz EQC - 4
Total = 2,352

Tesla
Model S - 184
Model 3 - 168 CCS
Model X - 81
Total = 433

Type2 only
Zoe 465

Could not find any Mercedes-Benz B class or Smart EV numbers

Left out the Twizzy as it's only 3pin

Thats a total of 6,507 with Chademo representing just over 50% and CCS just over 36%
Yes Chademo is in decline but with the Leaf being so popular it will be a long time before it's gone as there's no indication it would switch to CCS

I don't think i left any BEV's out and my sums are right but open to correction.

Dardania

Stealthirl wrote: »

On the Chademo v CCS issue
Currently there are

Chademo
Nissan EVs registered here (leaf/ENV) - 3,239
The triplets (Mitsubishi I-MIEV/Peugeot Ion/Citroën C-Zero) - 18
Total = 3,257 (could not find any 1st gen soul EVs oddly )


CCS
Hyundai Kona - 1,084
Hyundai Ioniq - 460
E-Golf - 338
BMW i3 - 246
Kia Niro - 72
Kia e-Soul - 62
Audi e-tron - 44
Jaguar I-Pace - 42
Mercedes-Benz EQC - 4
Total = 2,352

Tesla
Model S - 184
Model 3 - 168 CCS
Model X - 81
Total = 433

Type2 only
Zoe 465

Could not find any Mercedes-Benz B class or Smart EV numbers

Left out the Twizzy as it's only 3pin

Thats a total of 6,507 with Chademo representing just over 50% and CCS just over 36%
Yes Chademo is in decline but with the Leaf being so popular it will be a long time before it's gone as there's no indication it would switch to CCS

I don't think i left any BEV's out and my sums are right but open to correction.

Very revealing numbers, and yes deserves it's own thread. I didn't realise just how strong the leafs numbers were.

It's an interesting design decision by Renault with the zoe- do they take both ac and DC over that type 2 connector?

krissovo

If you arrange the data by year of manufacture I expect the data will tell a very different story.

L1011

Some of the PHEVs are Chademo-only also aren't they? That would add to the overall demand even if not BEV

thos

Tesla Model S/X made after May 2019 also include CCS adapter, and available for older stock.

slave1

Tesla S/X have as an option a Chademo adaptor too

ELM327

This is an interesting thread

1 - Chademo - most popular now due to high supply of leafs since 2011. Limited to 50kW.

2 - CCS All other evs. Newer. Will be majority very shortly. Limited to 350kW, max is currently 270 (Taycan) and 250 (Model 3)

2 will win out, but 1 will be around for the next few years as a legacy

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

This is an interesting thread

1 - Chademo - most popular now due to high supply of leafs since 2011. Limited to 50kW.

2 - CCS All other evs. Newer. Will be majority very shortly. Limited to 350kW, max is currently 270 (Taycan) and 250 (Model 3)

2 will win out, but 1 will be around for the next few years as a legacy

With Chademo, I thought it was going to achieve a first mover status due to support V2G...

ELM327

Dardania wrote: »

With Chademo, I thought it was going to achieve a first mover status due to support V2G...

V2G is already supported by type2 AC, and the next version of CCS will support it at chademo speed.
That first mover "advantage" won't last long.


V2H is more realistic, and for that, 7-11kW on type2 AC is a lot better than 43kW on chademo

jusmeig

Bit of VHS vs BetaMax going on here.
BetaMax was technically superior, but VHS won the war.

Tesla is arguably CCS -> All M3's are CCS, only a handful of S/X's.
Chademo will wane greatly now, as the manufacturers using it and selling cars here have much smaller volume that the ones incoming.
It highlights one thing -> history is doomed to repeat itself!!

ELM327

jusmeig wrote: »

Bit of VHS vs BetaMax going on here.
BetaMax was technically superior, but VHS won the war.

Tesla is arguably CCS -> All M3's are CCS, only a handful of S/X's.
Chademo will wane greatly now, as the manufacturers using it and selling cars here have much smaller volume that the ones incoming.
It highlights one thing -> history is doomed to repeat itself!!

S and X are CCS now too.


For used cars you can spend 500€ on CCS for 150kW, or 500€ on chademo for 50kW!


(I got both for free, and have yet to use my chademo adapter, as if I'm using DC, I want the highest speed possible)

KCross

Stealthirl wrote: »

Thats a total of 6,507 with Chademo representing just over 50% and CCS just over 36%
Yes Chademo is in decline but with the Leaf being so popular it will be a long time before it's gone as there's no indication it would switch to CCS

I'd say it will be close to 50/50 by the end of 2020.

In 2021 when VW unleash the ID.3 in big numbers and you have all the others ramping up (e208, Corsa, El-born etc) CCS will sprint ahead at that stage... so not long at all really... 12 months ish.

Im sure CHAdeMO will be around for a long time. Most new charge points (except Ionity of course) will support it so nothing to fear by buying a Leaf.

The faster CCS charging speeds dont matter much to the Leaf anyway as the L40 can only take <50kW and the L62 wont take much more than 50kW so the speed is irrelevant. All that matters is charger availability and that doesnt look like its going to be an issue.

At the end of the day its just a plug, its not at all like VHS/Betamax. Think of it more like the different connectors on mobiles. That doesnt stop people buying Android or iOS. As long as you can charge it you buy the one that you like.

liamog

So basically for currently available to purchase EVs in Europe we have

CHAdeMO - A proprietary connector used by the Renault Nissan Mitsubishi Alliance
CCS - Everyone else

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

So basically for currently available to purchase EVs in Europe we have

CHAdeMO - A proprietary connector used by the Renault Nissan Mitsubishi Alliance
CCS - Everyone else

Isn't the new Zoe CCS?

Disclaimer: might be talking out of me hole here.

Mickeroo

Silent Running wrote: »

Isn't the new Zoe CCS?

Disclaimer: might be talking out of me hole here.

It is, though it may be an optional extra.

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

Isn't the new Zoe CCS?

Disclaimer: might be talking out of me hole here.

Yup, new zoe has 22kW AC and 50kW CCS DC

September1

I think it should be also mentioned that Chademo has more locations where you can fast charge for free (Nissan dealerships) while CCS has more multicharger locations (Ionity).

ELM327

September1 wrote: »

I think it should be also mentioned that Chademo has more locations where you can fast charge for free (Nissan dealerships) while CCS has more multicharger locations (Ionity).

Can non Nissan cars use them though?
Can I just rock up in my Tesla? (Unlikely!)

JohnC.

September1 wrote: »

I think it should be also mentioned that Chademo has more locations where you can fast charge for free (Nissan dealerships) while CCS has more multicharger locations (Ionity).

How many dealerships have fast chargers? The two in Waterford just have standard Rolec Wallpods, like people can install at home. Unless they upgraded recently.

krissovo

September1 wrote: »

I think it should be also mentioned that Chademo has more locations where you can fast charge for free (Nissan dealerships) while CCS has more multicharger locations (Ionity).

Its come in handy for me a couple of times but some dealerships are more friendly than others. Usually they are blocked or are in use if you just turn up, if you call in advance they will often clear the space for you.

loopymum

krissovo wrote: »

Its come in handy for me a couple of times but some dealerships are more friendly than others. Usually they are blocked or are in use if you just turn up, if you call in advance they will often clear the space for you.

That's handy to know, I just got a 24kwh leaf

September1

ELM327 wrote: »

Can non Nissan cars use them though?
Can I just rock up in my Tesla? (Unlikely!)

They would work with any compatible car and I think Nissan only requires them to provide free charing for Nissan cars, but does not prevent free or paid charging for other cars. If you ever get a chance to test it, please let us know.

ELM327

September1 wrote: »

They would work with any compatible car and I think Nissan only requires them to provide free charing for Nissan cars, but does not prevent free or paid charging for other cars. If you ever get a chance to test it, please let us know.

MIght head down to Randle's actually
They turned off their chademo until they could charge for it. Now they charge a 5 euro connection fee with no usage charge. I'll rock up with 2% and charge to 100 for five quid!

September1

ELM327 wrote: »

MIght head down to Randle's actually
They turned off their chademo until they could charge for it. Now they charge a 5 euro connection fee with no usage charge. I'll rock up with 2% and charge to 100 for five quid!

Update us about how it works in practice.

loopymum

September1 wrote: »

Update us about how it works in practice.

Is that Randles in Killarney? Says 29c kw on ecars?

ELM327

loopymum wrote: »

Is that Randles in Killarney? Says 29c kw on ecars?

Its not an ecars unit

loopymum

ELM327 wrote: »

Its not an ecars unit

not doubting you but if it's not an ecars unit why is not showing as a third party unit on ecars? and why is it saying 29c per kw? I'm new to all this but I was in Killarney on Sunday and was glad that I hadn't taken the leaf when I was checking out chargers there as it was down on the app, I checked yesterday adn it was back up I think but down again now

ELM327

loopymum wrote: »

not doubting you but if it's not an ecars unit why is not showing as a third party unit on ecars? and why is it saying 29c per kw? I'm new to all this but I was in Killarney on Sunday and was glad that I hadn't taken the leaf when I was checking out chargers there as it was down on the app, I checked yesterday adn it was back up I think but down again now

ESB list all the nissan dealer chademo on their app too.
If it's displaying as 29c/kWh it's false

innrain

loopymum wrote: »

Is that Randles in Killarney? Says 29c kw on ecars?

ESB lists a wrong location for they FCP in Killarney. Plugshare has the right location. The Nissan garage is in the vicinity, literally behind the petrol station, maybe they own the land there but the FCP it is at the Maxol station

https://www.plugshare.com/location/34896. The GPS coordinates on the ESB map is away by a good bit. https://myaccount.esbecars.com/findCharger?52.0506500,-9.5071170,17z,Randles%20Garage%20(Nissan),%20Muckross%20Road,%20Killarney,%20Kerry,23si

Stealthirl

krissovo wrote: »

If you arrange the data by year of manufacture I expect the data will tell a very different story.

Nope top selling every year has been Chademo until this year.
2019 so far
1085 new and 372 used Chademo = 1473 excluding PHEVs and Tesla adapters
1988 new and 88 used CCS = 2076 excluding PHEVs and Tesla S/X

No single BEV has sold more then a leaf until maybe this year with the Kona.

2018/2017 looked like this for new sales (thanks to www.irishevowners.ie)

So on just new sales
2018 = 807(env-200 van sales inc) for chademo and 234 for CCS
2017 was = 294(env-200 van sales inc) for chademo and 253for CCS

Silent Running

Stealthirl wrote: »

No single BEV has sold more then a leaf until maybe this year with the Kona.

I wouldn't be so sure. Two Hyundai dealers near me have no Kona orders for January delivery. One has no Ioniq deliveries and the other has two for January.

I think Hyundai might have been found out. The Kona they brought to Ireland was a disgrace. A stripped out spec in a cynical money grab. I hope this is the backlash for that. The buying public aren't as stupid as some businesses think.

Soarer

Basically, whichever standard the porn industry goes with will win out.

Kramer

CHAdeMO v3.0 is coming & poised to topple CCS :eek:.

500kW (maximum current 600A)
Liquid-cooling technology
Smaller diameter cable
Locking/unlocking mechanism from the connector


And, of course, bidirectional :cool:.

https://electrek.co/2020/04/28/chademo-and-china-release-new-ev-quick-charging-standard-in-a-bid-to-leapfrog-the-industry/

KCross

Kramer wrote: »

CHAdeMO v3.0 is coming & poised to topple CCS :eek:.

500kW (maximum current 600A)
Liquid-cooling technology
Smaller diameter cable
Locking/unlocking mechanism from the connector


And, of course, bidirectional :cool:.

https://electrek.co/2020/04/28/chademo-and-china-release-new-ev-quick-charging-standard-in-a-bid-to-leapfrog-the-industry/

I dont agree with his assessment of "... we could see a change to the balance of EV charging protocols"

It wont change anything really for Europe.

CCS is going to dominate here once VAG start delivering and CHAdeMO will dominate in asia.
Both will coexist and be further improved and adopted. Neither will "win out", causing the other to die... CCS for europe, CHAdeMO for asia... thats all.

slave1

And Tesla Model S still the only car to be able to use the big 3 chargers, Tesla/CCS/Chademo

ELM327

Absolutely pointless and irrelevant outside of Asia anyway.
Additionally, if it's limited to 600a (the tesla model 3 peaks at 666a already) it is relying on 833.33v batteries to achieve 500kW. Nonsense.
Also, it's still requiring an AC and a DC separate socket on the car.

Kramer

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128000_chademo-3-0-fast-charging-for-evs-revealed-might-be-backward-compatible-with-ccs

I dunno, they say it might be backwards compatible with CCS & has a lot going for it.
In fairness, when the lads there in China get involved, they have the clout to quickly spread this throughout the world.

With China's support, v3 could go viral .

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

In fairness, when the lads there in China get involved, they have the clout to quickly spread this throughout the world.

Nah, it doesn't work like that. They have long been used to adapting whatever product they are selling to the country they are selling it to. They have no problem making the same cheap electric appliance with 5 different AC plugs for the US, europe, UK, etc.

CCS is the standard in Europe

Even the likes of Tesla who very much do their own thing (which in many ways was superior), have seen this. If you can't beat them, join them. They're now adapting all their superchargers in Europe and all their cars to be able to use CCS

ELM327

This will not do anything to CCS in europe. CCS in NA is now more prevalent too.

Just give it up already. Move to CCS, make an adapter for old cars that can't charge on CCS (or give up on them) and we have one unified standard

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Nah, it doesn't work like that. They have long been used to adapting whatever product they are selling to the country they are selling it to. They have no problem making the same cheap electric appliance with 5 different AC plugs for the US, europe, UK, etc.

CCS is the standard in Europe

Even the likes of Tesla who very much do their own thing (which in many ways was superior), have seen this. If you can't beat them, join them. They're now adapting all their superchargers in Europe and all their cars to be able to use CCS

It's not a "can't beat", as the superchargers were better than other methods (and still are).


All that has changed is the following:
-Model 3 can charge natively with CCS as opposed to older cars that need adapter
-The modified type 2 dc could not deliver much more power, so they switched to a modified CCS plug. Interesting to note, their cars charging on a V3 SuC actually breaks the CCS protocol (like the type 2 DC broke the type 2 protocol). It exceeds the CCS2.0 limit of 500a.

beauf

Dardania wrote: »

Very revealing numbers, and yes deserves it's own thread. I didn't realise just how strong the leafs numbers were.

It's an interesting design decision by Renault with the zoe- do they take both ac and DC over that type 2 connector?

Where is the Zoe in those numbers?

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Where is the Zoe in those numbers?

It was in the Type2 section.

The choice of Renault to provide CCS with the facelift Zoe show's they've given up on FastAC. Do they even offer 43kW AC on the current model?

JohnC.

Are there figures for CCS installations? I was just looking at an article with global Chademo figures.
https://insideevs.com/news/423639/chademo-dc-charging-points-32000-chart

32,300 globally and nearly half of those are in Europe, with 14,400. That’s up 56% on last June (in Europe), while Japan almost stalled, only adding about 100 in a year.

liamog

JohnC. wrote: »

Are there figures for CCS installations? I was just looking at an article with global Chademo figures.
https://insideevs.com/news/423639/chademo-dc-charging-points-32000-chart

32,300 globally and nearly half of those are in Europe, with 14,400. That’s up 56% on last June (in Europe), while Japan almost stalled, only adding about 100 in a year.

As your link says, CCS enabled cars surpassed CHAdeMO in Europe last year. Every rapid charger in the EU is required to have at least a CCS connector. So for every CHAdeMO added at there will be at least one more CCS.

I don't think we'll see CHAdeMO die until cars start shipping with ChaoJi (CHAdeMO 3.0 and GB/T unified). At that point, I can't see a big investment in switching over the infrastructure for the new connector. The big techincal difference is the protocol. CHAdeMO using canbus for signalling whereas CCS uses HomePlug Green PHY. At some point I think there could be a move to allow ChaoJi over the CCS connector. May as well treat the physical connector like USB C and allow multiple communication protocols.

Lantus

It's a chronic shame that ev manufacturers didn't coordinate their efforts in this regard to standardise the connectors. I'm thinking economy of scales and access to a standardised infrastructure.

Same goes for the WiFi 5g they are developing different systems and processes for.

It's the same old silly mistakes that will stifle and hold back development.

liamog

Lantus wrote: »

It's a chronic shame that ev manufacturers didn't coordinate their efforts in this regard to standardise the connectors. I'm thinking economy of scales and access to a standardised infrastructure.

It has been standardised. At this point it's CCS in Europe, ChaoJi will be Japan/China. Other parts of the world will likely pick between those two. North America is a bit of a basket case, free market rules over standards, but it looks like CCS will win long term, but Tesla will still maintain their own connector.

KCross

Lantus wrote: »

It's a chronic shame that ev manufacturers didn't coordinate their efforts in this regard to standardise the connectors.

You can blame the Germans for that. The japanese had developed CHAdeMO and rolled it out back in 2010. Its a perfectly good standard with bi-directional capability an all.

A few years later when the Germans decided that they wanted to join the EV game they werent willing to pay the fees for CHAdeMO so created their own standard and obviously had the clout within the EU to make CCS the preferred standard going forward from there.

If they had rolled with CHAdeMO we wouldnt be having the conversation.

Water under the bridge now... CCS is where it's at for Europe.

ELM327

... and all cars would have to have massive fuel flaps with two ports underneath.
I like the neatness of CCS. Not to mention the more advance comms.

liamog

It's not as simple as the Germans wanting an alternative. Tepco were reluctant to release CHAdeMO as a standard, and the VDE + Ford and GM wanted a more elegant solution than two ports. I think part of the ChaoJi change is to allow a single socket with Type1/Type2 just like ccs.

Stealthirl

Nissan should have just switched the Leaf to CCS outside Japan when the L40 came out, one of several things they should have done with the L40

slave1

Easy to forget the Leaf is here since 2011 so why would Nissan change from CHAdeMO, was CCS even out there in 2011?

Oh, you said L40, sorry missed that, fair comment but I can’t see them moving anytime soon. With them aledgely reducing footprint in Europe all future Leafs could come from Japan.
At least they moved to Type 2 with the L40