How will schools be able to go back in September?

r93kaey5p2izun · 29-07-2020 09:48PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Open the windows

And if there aren't any?

29-07-2020 09:51PM

Boggles wrote: »

You need to contact the department with this new information.

WHO have already stated it occur but is not a major factor in spread. It’s noise that makes dealing with the important factors more important

Jim_Hodge · 29-07-2020 09:52PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

And if there aren't any?

Windows will be provided.

r93kaey5p2izun · 29-07-2020 09:53PM

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

Windows will be provided.

That will take some creative reconfiguration! Around 12 rooms with no windows in my last school.

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 09:54PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

And if there aren't any?

Open the door

khalessi · 29-07-2020 09:54PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

That will take some creative reconfiguration! Around 12 rooms with no windows in my last school.

Unfortunate as Windows only up as far as Windows10 at the minute:D

r93kaey5p2izun · 29-07-2020 09:56PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Open the door

Sure. Sounds like perfectly adequate ventilation. Unfortunately two of those rooms, the door just opens into another classroom. Would that be increasing or decreasing risks?

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 09:59PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

Sure. Sounds like perfectly adequate ventilation. Unfortunately two of those rooms, the door just opens into another classroom. Would that be increasing or decreasing risks?

I'd have to say increase bob.

Remember when you were in school and some undesirable little so and so had too many beans for breakfast......

You see where I'm going with this.

That gives you a good proxy for aerosols.

We were always breathing in each others noxious fumes whether we liked it or not.

You don't have to be an aerosol scientist.

29-07-2020 10:04PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

You seem to think of it as being binary.

Nobody is saying you can't get it if someone spits in your face intentionally or unintentionally.

Spending all day in a room with 30 kids and no windows open increases the likelihood massively of AIRBORNE transmission.

That is you can sanitise your hands all you want.
Keep your distance etc.
You can still get infected.
If that is not even a given at this stage then good luck everyone.

See you back here for the post mortem.

Don't take my word for it take the WHO's => "It's airborne"

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1279765631680892929?s=20

There seems to be a view here that all potential spread can be prevented. It can’t. So we deal with the factors that cause 90% of spread. Airborne and asymptotic spread are complicating factors in the overall picture, but they are not the key factors in preventing the virus as has been proven by the success multiple places have had in suppression through track and trace of close contacts - 2 metres 15 mins only. Yes there have been events that fall outside these parameters, but the data is suggesting over and over that provided all the other measures are in place, especially track and trace, these multiple infection events will burn themselves out quickly.

I work in a place where early on in the virus an individual following completion of their shift collapsed and were taken to hospital. They subsequently tested positive. Not one of the 15 individuals who worked that shift with the person In the same small area, or the previous 3 shifts he worked that week tested positive. 5 of them were tested negative. If airborne or asymptotic spread were such a factor why did none of these get infected?

Just to add the individual was back at work 3 weeks later

byhookorbycrook · 29-07-2020 10:07PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Following a 2.5-hour choir practice attended by 61 persons, including a symptomatic index patient, 32 confirmed and 20 probable secondary COVID-19 cases occurred (attack rate = 53.3% to 86.7%); three patients were hospitalized, and two died. Transmission was likely facilitated by close proximity (within 6 feet) during practice and augmented by the act of singing.

The 2.5-hour singing practice provided several opportunities for droplet and fomite transmission, including members sitting close to one another, sharing snacks, and stacking chairs at the end of the practice. The act of singing, itself, might have contributed to transmission through emission of aerosols, which is affected by loudness of vocalization

One member had symptoms and came the next week
Questionable hand hygiene, eating oranges and stacking chairs
Median age 65
In march

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e6.htm

The dept. Aren't asking teachers to have 61 over 65s singing in the corner of the classroom

Raising your voice ( as you must in a class of 30+ also increases particle spread . Children are in a classroom in primary for more than 5 hours . Anyone who was ever in class in a pre-fab knows that opening a window doesn’t do much to ventilate it .

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:16PM

For those interested in the area. Check it out.
Good place to start. The science is completely 100% clear.
When the scientist speaks to the politician it's rarely science that takes precedence.
Scientist often has an option of speaking out and loosing job / future funding or keeping schtum and paying his/her mortgage.

Anyway. It might help with the risk assessments taking place.

Flow physics plays a key role in nearly every facet of the COVID-19 pandemic.
This includes the generation and aerosolization of virus-laden respiratory droplets from a host,
its airborne dispersion and deposition on surfaces,
as well as the subsequent inhalation of these bioaerosols by unsuspecting recipients.

Fluid dynamics is also key to preventative measures such as the use of face masks, hand washing, ventilation of indoor environments and even social distancing.
This article summarizes what we know and, more importantly, what we need to learn about the science underlying these issues so that we are better prepared to tackle the next outbreak of COVID-19 or a similar disease.
........
Our hope is that not only will this article serve as a call-to-arms to fluid dynamicists, it will also provide a starting point for the researcher who is motivated to tackle the science of COVID-19, and other similar diseases that are sure to appear in the not-too-distant future.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/476E32549012B3620D2452F30F2567F1/S0022112020003304a_hi.pdf/_div_class__title__The_flow_physics_of_COVID-19__div_.pdf

xhomelezz · 29-07-2020 10:17PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Open the door

Or break the wall

r93kaey5p2izun · 29-07-2020 10:20PM

xhomelezz wrote: »

Or break the wall

But they're completely internal rooms. The walls just lead to another room.

Peter Flynt · 29-07-2020 10:23PM

Schools will fully reopen and close again within 4-6 weeks because of the lack of observation of Social Distancing.

I hope I'm proved wrong but Dept of Education are reckless with public health and safety in returning 1 million students full time.

We won't open pubs now yet we expect to make that much progress in 4 weeks?

Total madness.

The solution should have been to bring students back 50% of time and 50% with online or home study until the October mid term break and, if successful, everyone full time from November onwards. Instead we want the lot NOW.

29-07-2020 10:23PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

I'd have to say increase bob.

Remember when you were in school and some undesirable little so and so had too many beans for breakfast......

You see where I'm going with this.

That gives you a good proxy for aerosols.

We were always breathing in each others noxious fumes whether we liked it or not.

You don't have to be an aerosol scientist.

An good proxy for understanding transmission risk Is if you can smell their breath you are in range of infection, as explained by Dr Eanna Falvey, chief medical officer of world rugby who is well versed in infection control, and you know a professional, rather than a random poster talking about farts.

Why does hydrogen sulphide spread further than SARS-2 CoV. Because it’s orders of magnitude smaller

xhomelezz · 29-07-2020 10:24PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

But they're completely internal rooms. The walls just lead to another room.

Plenty of breaking so

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

An good proxy for understanding transmission risk Is if you can smell their breath you are in range of infection, as explained by Dr Eanna Falvey, chief medical officer of world rugby who is well versed in infection control, and you know a professional, rather than a random poster talking about farts.

Why does hydrogen sulphide spread further than SARS-2 CoV. Because it’s orders of magnitude smaller

Convection my friend. Convection.
Tinnier tiny particles get carried by the invisible wind that is all around us.
We are but in a state of flux.
If only you could see.

I may be random.
But I'm not wrong.

byhookorbycrook · 29-07-2020 10:27PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

They've given the answers in road map.

• Regular and good hand hygiene;
• Good respiratory hygiene and cough etiquette;
• Enhanced cleaning regimes; and
• Maintaining physical distancing in the classroom and within schools;

Teachers role is to identify where these occur in the class room and take steps to reduce the risk. Are they not capable of assessing thier classrooms for

A) placement of sanitizer
B)Spacing & Moving desks to maximise distance
C) Encouraging hygiene through routines
D) identify common touch items for enhanced cleaning
E) with thier colleagues identifying isolation area and a strategy deal with a suspected case
F) work with thier colleagues to establish staggered break times

?

Regular and good cough hygiene, hand hygiene . Have you ever been in a class of 30 6 year olds ? By the time you manage to get 30 of them to wash their hands at the sink ( presuming the class HAS a sink ) the 1st ten- at least have touched their faces/ each other / various surfaces and would need to start again.

Physical distancing isn’t needed for them, according to the DES , contrary to all health advice. Within most schools , corridors don’t allow for any form of distancing either .

Enhanced cleaning regimes ? School has to buy the supplies and €10 a child won’t pay too many cleaners .

“ Spacing and moving desks ?” Most Irish classrooms don’t have enough space for 1 m distancing . Even if they did , what happens when x needs to get to the bathroom, IWB, door , dispose of a tissue or can’t open their drink ?

“ Common touch items for enhanced cleaning “ Children’s faces ? The pencils they will insist on showing their friends ? Their tables and chairs - how often per day , by who , when and what ?

Staggered break times? When do the teacher and SNA get to have their break ?

Isolation areas- yes , in all those spare classrooms schools have , supervised by all the spare teachers that are kept in a press .

Your post is incredibly uninformed as to how schools actually work , day to day . There aren’t the resources in a primary school to do this . Secondary schools have been allocated some extra staff , primary haven’t .

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:31PM

Here's a picture which paints a thousand words.

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1280903785703976961?s=20

29-07-2020 10:33PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Convection my friend. Convection.
Tinnier tiny particles get carried by the invisible wind that is all around us.
We are but in a state of flux.
If only you could see.

I may be random.
But I'm not wrong.

Convection is our friend in this scenario. What disperses, reduces individual exposure levels

29-07-2020 10:34PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Here's a picture which paints a thousand words.

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1280903785703976961?s=20

It’s not just the presence of particles that cause infection, but also the numbers

Smacruairi · 29-07-2020 10:38PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s not just the presence of particles that cause infection, but also the numbers

Just a quick one. You clearly have your mind set, that's fine, there is no way of swaying you. But if, if, it turns out that the infections rise, and what we say comes true, what will be your response. Will you go after the govt or who with as much tenacity as you have shown in debating here? What would it take for you to change your mind and consider what the teachers are saying? This isn't a gotcha, just genuinely asking.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:40PM

the corpo wrote: »

I'm quite worried that they are ignorant of the science. Page 24 of the document categorically states that covid is not airborne and physical separation (which they can't even promise) is enough to halt any spread. The science disputes this.

Deleted User wrote: »

It’s not just the presence of particles that cause infection, but also the numbers

Let's agree to disagree.

BTW I said this about HCW and 34% of our total cases were from them.
Last week we had 44 cases from that cohort.

Ignore the science and importantly the probability at your peril.
Other countries believed it was airborne and their hospital staff did not drop like flies.
Check out Napoli in Italy.

BTW the percentage of household contacts in Korea of 10-19 that subsequently got infected was 18.6% or 43 / 231.

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:50PM

HSE should have looked at their risk assessment instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. I suppose life goes on.

Maybe we wouldn't have had 8405 of 26220 total cases being health care workers getting sick i.e 32.1%.

combat14 · 29-07-2020 10:53PM

almost 1400 new cases in France and approx. 1200 new cases in Spain as

Glynn says opportunity to avoid acceleration of pandemic as seen across Europe

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0729/1156276-coronavirus-northern-ireland/

wonder how he is going to do that when opening schools here with minimal health and safety measures....

29-07-2020 10:55PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just a quick one. You clearly have your mind set, that's fine, there is no way of swaying you. But if, if, it turns out that the infections rise, and what we say comes true, what will be your response. Will you go after the govt or who with as much tenacity as you have shown in debating here? What would it take for you to change your mind and consider what the teachers are saying? This isn't a gotcha, just genuinely asking.

Infections will rise, some schools will close, but I would guess it will be more likely due to cases coming in rather than coming from the schools, but we have put ourselves a min a position where we can have a level of control, and we have to use it to get the systems right to deal with this on an ongoing basis, as we can’t depend on a vaccine, even though I am positive about that.

I don’t believe that government are doing enough, but the guidelines are realistic and will prevent spread, maybe not enough, but I am realistic enough to know that in the absence of isolating the country from the rest of the world completely, There will be cases . Each school and each community has a part to play in making the control in schools as strong as it can be within the constraints that are with. On considering what the teachers are saying... I do, but here is the thing, there is a lot of fear in excess of the actual risk. Any mitigation is a benefit. Those with conditions should be supported and we should continuously seek to challenge to achieve better work environments. Ultimately though if the cases rise significantly, it’s a societal failure, not just a school issue

glack · 29-07-2020 10:58PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How many of these teachers have actually gone in to the schools and measured the classrooms and attempted to see how many desks can fit in with all the extra furniture removed? Or how many are just saying, room 10 is very small, no way we can fit first year English in there. And masks are also recommended when as a last resort and 1m is not possible

I did. If I remove ALL of the storage (sure who needs supplies like paper or maths equipment or the luxury of books?) and push my desk against the top wall, I can fit 18 students. This involves some children’s desk also touching the front wall and they will be unable to see the whiteboard or interactive panel. I will also need to stay glued to the front of the room as if I even take one step away from the wall I’m no longer the required distance away from students. I’m also at a loss as to what I’m supposed to do with the approximately 10 students (don’t have final numbers yet) and SNA who don’t fit?

29-07-2020 11:01PM

glack wrote: »

I did. If I remove ALL of the storage (sure who needs supplies like paper or maths equipment or the luxury of books?) and push my desk against the top wall, I can fit 18 students. This involves some children’s desk also touching the front wall and they will be unable to see the whiteboard or interactive panel. I will also need to stay glued to the front of the room as if I even take one step away from the wall I’m no longer the required distance away from students. I’m also at a loss as to what I’m supposed to do with the approximately 10 students (don’t have final numbers yet) and SNA who don’t fit?

Are you primary or secondary?

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 11:04PM

glack wrote: »

I did. If I remove ALL of the storage (sure who needs supplies like paper or maths equipment or the luxury of books?) and push my desk against the top wall, I can fit 18 students. This involves some children’s desk also touching the front wall and they will be unable to see the whiteboard or interactive panel. I will also need to stay glued to the front of the room as if I even take one step away from the wall I’m no longer the required distance away from students. I’m also at a loss as to what I’m supposed to do with the approximately 10 students (don’t have final numbers yet) and SNA who don’t fit?

Maybe a "pod" in the closet?
Some people on here think teachers can bend time and space so they can get some peace and free childcare.

Some problems in maths are unsolvable.
I really do sympathise.
Would prefer a real solution rather than wishful thinking.
We'll all pay dearly for the hubris.

combat14 · 29-07-2020 11:08PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Schools will fully reopen and close again within 4-6 weeks because of the lack of observation of Social Distancing.

I hope I'm proved wrong but Dept of Education are reckless with public health and safety in returning 1 million students full time.

We won't open pubs now yet we expect to make that much progress in 4 weeks?

Total madness.

The solution should have been to bring students back 50% of time and 50% with online or home study until the October mid term break and, if successful, everyone full time from November onwards. Instead we want the lot NOW.

there should be at least proper work put into remote learning for next shut down

most employers who can let workers WFH are continuing to do so as per govt. guidelines ....

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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