How will schools be able to go back in September?

joe40

blanch152 wrote: »

It could be worse.

You could be a doctor in a hospital telling a patient you can't get that cancer treatment to keep you alive because the beds are full with coronavirus patients. Actually, hold that, doctors did have to do that.

Some of the complaints on this thread are ludicrous. The science at the moment says that children are low-risk transmitters of the disease. Schools have not contributed to a rise in infection anywhere in the world yet.

Teachers are scared of going back to work, that is understandable, but it is a fear based on ignorance of the science. A surprise in people so well-educated.

As someone who wants to see school open and I'm largely supportive of the plan I find this a very ignorant and unhelpful post.

The fears expressed by teachers are real and justified. No school in the world has returned in the same way that Ireland is planning to.

Full cohort of pupils in place with zero mandatory PPE.
Also poor physical infrastructure in many cases.
There is no ignorance of the science, it is a risk the govt are embarking on, they will admit that themselves. The situation re spike of infection will need to be carefully monitored.
To suggest the science says there is no risk is ludicrous.

The vast majority of posters here are talking about aspects of the plan which are lacking and could be done better. Virtually no one is talking about schools staying shut.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Bullsh!t......

I'm not a teacher but given the ambiguity with how people interpret studies around here I'll spoon feed you the question in a format that you might understand.

Can you read the table from the Korean study and tell me the following......

How many contacts of school going kids subsequently tested positive?


Second question....(bit tougher)
What percentage of household contacts of secondary kid, subsequently tested positive relative to those that didn't (total).

I think you'll find the answer surprising.

As cute as Johnny is. He's a granny killer. Might be why they closed the schools in first place.




Here's the link you won't follow and you won't read. It's the only bit of data we actually have. Another study in US will be concluded in December.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article

50 out of 2000 contacts who tested positive were linked to under20’s. 2.5%. Data tell us under20s catch it less, under 10’s spread it less. Supports schools as a lower risk environment

the corpo

joe40 wrote: »

There is no ignorance of the science, it is a risk the govt are embarking on, they will admit that themselves.

I'm quite worried that they are ignorant of the science. Page 24 of the document categorically states that covid is not airborne and physical separation (which they can't even promise) is enough to halt any spread. The science disputes this.

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

50 out of 2000 contacts who tested positive were linked to under20’s. 2.5%. Data tell us under20s catch it less, under 10’s spread it less. Supports schools as a lower risk environment

Any reduction rate of transmission will be offset by the total lack of social distancing and the extremely large numbers of people in situ.

caveat emptor

blanch152 wrote: »

Class sizes are bigger in Korea than in Ireland, space is more crowded.

Also bullsh!t. Don't let facts get in the way of chastising teachers.

As North America debates whether to send students back to school in the months ahead, I can’t help but wonder if any of the politicians involved have looked outside to see how things have worked in other countries. Here’s hoping they pay attention.

Our strict guidelines for sanitation look like this:

• When teachers arrive at work, their temperatures are taken, and a team goes around the school spraying disinfectant on every surface in every classroom. This happens again during lunch break.
• When students first arrive, they are socially distanced out in the courtyard.
• One by one, students have their temperature taken and recorded, and then are sent down the hall where a heat camera registers their temperature again.
• From there, they are directed to an approved classroom.
• Only some classrooms are permitted to hold students — based on new safety guidelines. My classroom, for instance, does not pass the test because it does not have an open window and is not large enough to permit students’ desks to be properly socially distanced.
• Each desk has a plastic shield attached to it that covers the front and sides.
  Students disinfect their hands when they enter a classroom and every 45 minutes throughout their stay at the school.

Teachers, students, and staff all wear masks for the entire time we are gathered in the building together. Teachers are expected to change their masks before every new class.
Before and after every class, teachers disinfect their own desks and the student desks.


As a community, we pay constant attention to social distancing, and students’ activities during breaks must follow distancing protocols. At the end of class, students are led out of the building one by one to head home safely and soundly.

Yes, it can be a hassle. Yes, it can be tedious. Yes, it is worth it. We have not seen a single case of Covid-19 at our school of over 300 students who have been back in person for three and a half months. This is a very small scale experiment, mind you. Each of our classes has a maximum of eight students. This means that reopening schools on a larger scale requires a minimum of these procedures and guidelines — and likely additional measures.

https://elemental.medium.com/back-to-school-lessons-from-south-korea-4d703ff9080a

downthemiddle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s the exact opposite of whataboutery. I addressed the exact point made by the previous poster, in that many people with children with special needs would prefer some supports to none. An as we work through it we address the gaps as and when we can

Or we could have a better plan that doesn’t discriminate against the most vulnerable.

joe40

the corpo wrote: »

I'm quite worried that they are ignorant of the science. Page 24 of the document categorically states that covid is not airborne and physical separation (which they can't even promise) is enough to halt any spread. The science disputes this.

I was responding to a poster who was saying teacher concerns were based "ignorance of the science."

Smacruairi

joe40 wrote: »

I was responding to a poster who was saying teacher concerns were based "ignorance of the science."

Yup, outlined a factual retort, was then called scared, ignorant, and unwilling to return to work. Nothing at all addressing the most vulnerable as was the point. It's cognitive dissonance.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

Also bullsh!t. Don't let facts get in the way of chastising teachers.




https://elemental.medium.com/back-to-school-lessons-from-south-korea-4d703ff9080a

That’s an after school teacher

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

50 out of 2000 contacts who tested positive were linked to under20’s. 2.5%. Data tell us under20s catch it less, under 10’s spread it less. Supports schools as a lower risk environment

I'm afraid that is not quite correct. Does anybody want to help confirm what percentage of house hold contacts of the infected children subsequently tested positive?

hint (it's in the column next to it).

My teacher always told me to read the question....then read the question again.

Alrigghtythen

caveat emptor wrote: »

Bullsh!t......

I'm not a teacher but given the ambiguity with how people interpret studies around here I'll spoon feed you the question in a format that you might understand.

Can you read the table from the Korean study and tell me the following......

How many contacts of school going kids subsequently tested positive?


Second question....(bit tougher)
What percentage of household contacts of secondary kid, subsequently tested positive relative to those that didn't (total).

I think you'll find the answer surprising.

As cute as Johnny is. He's a granny killer. Might be why they closed the schools in first place.




Here's the link you won't follow and you won't read. It's the only bit of data we actually have. Another study in US will be concluded in December.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article

How many grannies are in Johnny's class?

lulublue22

downthemiddle wrote: »

Or we could have a better plan that doesn’t discriminate against the most vulnerable.

A plan whose attitude to those in high risk categories ( immunocompromised children ) is basically your school will take care of that. That’s fine except those who are tasked with that at local level are SET. The very SET who are expected to cover classes. So not alone will those children with additional needs be expected to put up and shut up for the greater good so too are those children who can’t physically attend school through no fault of their own. The vast majority of posters on here don’t give a crap as it doesn’t affect their wee darling.

downthemiddle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A difference of opinion is not a windup. There is little to no opinion from any experts in the field as to why a return to school at this time presents a greater risk in Ireland. The schools will face resourcing challenges and decisions when cases arise, but at this time the balance of risk means opening schools is feasible. And for the future generations it’s needed.

All bar those with special educational needs clearly.

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

That’s an after school teacher

Fair point. Let's take a look shall we......
Then we can play spot the difference in September.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/05/26/pictures-say-it-all-how-south-korean-schools-are-reopening/

YellowBucket

caveat emptor wrote: »

Fair point. Let's take a look shall we......
Then we can play spot the difference in September.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/05/26/pictures-say-it-all-how-south-korean-schools-are-reopening/

That Korean setup looks absolutely horrendous. How could anyone sit behind a solid, opaque shield like that all day? Has to be a better way than that!

lulublue22

YellowBucket wrote: »

That Korean setup looks absolutely horrendous. How could anyone sit behind a solid, opaque shield like that all day? Has to be a better way than that!

Fair enough re the desk shield. But I like the space between desks - just in case anyone is unsure - that’s not what an Irish classroom will look like in Sep.

caveat emptor

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How many grannies are in Johnny's class?

Sorry the question was in relation to HOUSEHOLD CLOSE CONTACTs.
To answer that question you'd have to ask how many of the little Johnnys live with their little grannies.

caveat emptor

YellowBucket wrote: »

That Korean setup looks absolutely horrendous. How could anyone sit behind a solid, opaque shield like that all day? Has to be a better way than that!

Also don't forget the masks....

caveat emptor

And here's another one. Nice touch the hand sanitiser and masks sitting on the table.

Alrigghtythen

caveat emptor wrote: »

Sorry the question was in relation to HOUSEHOLD CLOSE CONTACTs.
To answer that question you'd have to ask how many of the little Johnnys live with their little grannies.

No I think the question to be asked there would be why are teachers neglecting thier responsibility of educating johnny in favour of his granny? Unless the teachers are getting paid for granny, she's not thier responsibility. let the people who live in the house worry about granny.

We dont live in one room houses anymore. Johnny needs an education. Can granny go to the sitting room/kitchen in the evenings and johnny can hang out in the kitchen/outside/his bedroom? Can granny wear a mask? Can johnny wear a mask at home?

I'd bet granny would prefer if johnny was at school getting an education instead of being at home annoying her all day.

caveat emptor

caveat emptor wrote: »

I'm afraid that is not quite correct. Does anybody want to help confirm what percentage of house hold contacts of the infected children subsequently tested positive?

hint (it's in the column next to it).

My teacher always told me to read the question....then read the question again.

What I stated matches the data perfectly. 5.3% of household contacts of under 10’s tested positive as against an overall rate of 11%. And 18% for 10 to 19, inline with the rate for middle aged people. Also only 2.5% of contacts of under20s tested positive - which tells us - far less under 20s tested positive in the first place.

One of us appears not to read the data before we post

downthemiddle

downthemiddle wrote: »

All bar those with special educational needs clearly.

Some education is better than none. In an ideal world we would have a sub available for every teacher, sna, set etc, but it’s just not possible unfortunately

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

There is little to no opinion from any experts in the field as to why a return to school at this time presents a greater risk in Ireland.

The experts in the actual field. i.e. teachers are telling you they don't have room to implement the recommended social distancing guidelines.

Masks are not recommended.

They work there and can use a measuring tape, what fúcking expertise are you looking for?

xhomelezz

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

No I think the question to be asked there would be why are teachers neglecting thier responsibility of educating johnny in favour of his granny? Unless the teachers are getting paid for granny, she's not thier responsibility. let the people who live in the house worry about granny.

We dont live in one room houses anymore. Johnny needs an education. Can granny go to the sitting room/kitchen in the evenings and johnny can hang out in the kitchen/outside/his bedroom? Can granny wear a mask? Can johnny wear a mask at home?

I'd bet granny would prefer if johnny was at school getting an education instead of being at home annoying her all day.

A bit harsh saying teachers are neglecting their responsibility of educating. That's cheap argument. Didn't see any posts like that here. Did you? Obvious point is government wrote the mighty plan at lunch break and expect people will just say oh yeaaaah let's do it, doesn't matter how stupid it is. No questions asked. If they wanna run experiment of this size, just open the f.. pubs and let's see what will happen. When it comes to Johnny, well he might wanna see his granny alive to pump him up with some sweets.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

The experts in the actual field. i.e. teachers are telling you they don't have room to implement the recommended social distancing guidelines.

Masks are not recommended.

They work there and can use a measuring tape, what fúcking expertise are you looking for?

Do the teachers sign off the wiring in the school? Neither do they have the expertise to define required public health measures

combat14

caveat emptor wrote: »

Also don't forget the masks....

now that's how it properly should be done
either that or online learning is the way to go

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Do the teachers sign off the wiring in the school? Neither do they have the expertise to define required public health measures

Jesus you are struggling lad.

They are not defining public health measures they are trying to implement them, they can't.

When you get home, try put 6 golf balls in your mouth, let me know how you get on, or would you need to wait for a professional golfer to tell you can't do it?

Alrigghtythen

xhomelezz wrote: »

A bit harsh saying teachers are neglecting their responsibility of educating. That's cheap argument. Didn't see any posts like that here. Did you? Obvious point is government wrote the mighty plan at lunch break and expect people will just say oh yeaaaah let's do it, doesn't matter how stupid it is. No questions asked. If they wanna run experiment of this size, just open the f.. pubs and let's see what will happen. When it comes to Johnny, well he might wanna see his granny alive to pump him up with some sweets.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/news/5712318/coronavirus-ireland-professor-parents-responsibility-flexible-schools-reopen/amp/

Professor of Microbial Diseases in the UCD School of Medicine Paddy Mallon

The professor said that there is risk associated with "every single part of the chain" but it's important that Ireland go ahead with the plan to reopen the schools.

'NARROW WINDOW'
He said: "At every point along [the chain] we all need to be buying into this concept that a continued education system is contingent on us not introducing risk.

"Provided that the system can keep a cap on the rates of community transmission and keep them low then the risk associated with the kids going back to school remains low.

"That is the key to everything that we do.

"There is a degree of flexibility that will be needed as we move forward but we need to move forward.

caveat emptor

Deleted User wrote: »

Do the teachers sign off the wiring in the school? Neither do they have the expertise to define required public health measures

I agree Who would that be?

Occupational health?

I know companies are having to fit ventilation and filters.
Where's the risk assessments in the context of an airborne pathogen?


Great that googlers and tech workers told to work from home until 2021.
Seems like there'll be some serious legal disputes considering normal occupational health practice has been suspended and teachers not afforded the same legal protection as other workers.

xhomelezz

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/news/5712318/coronavirus-ireland-professor-parents-responsibility-flexible-schools-reopen/amp/

Professor of Microbial Diseases in the UCD School of Medicine Paddy Mallon

The professor said that there is risk associated with "every single part of the chain" but it's important that Ireland go ahead with the plan to reopen the schools.

'NARROW WINDOW'
He said: "At every point along [the chain] we all need to be buying into this concept that a continued education system is contingent on us not introducing risk.

"Provided that the system can keep a cap on the rates of community transmission and keep them low then the risk associated with the kids going back to school remains low.

"That is the key to everything that we do.

"There is a degree of flexibility that will be needed as we move forward but we need to move forward.

I'm not saying keep the schools closed!!!