How will schools be able to go back in September?

khalessi · 19-07-2020 08:13AM

the corpo wrote: »

I may be wrong (usually am) but is this the first large scale study to examine transmission rates amongst children?

I don't dispute the results at all, but it just shows how unknown this all is that a potential reason for children under 10 not being so important a factor in spreading, is that they're short! And thus not exhaling at a height to reach into adult airways.
Mad, Ted.

But if it's right that children from 10+ are as contagious as adults then how can there be any argument for placing 30 plus teachers crowded together into a typical Irish sized classroom? A full return will be impossible.

The basic argument is the government need to get a workforce back in place and they couldnt manage childcare for HCW, so ignore reports about children catching it, there are been a few and just reopen schools, the best child care service and automatically you have 1.1 million children sorted between primary and secondary.

All that is fine if they put in the proper investment. Why not say ok, we need to sort the schools out so they will be closed till midterm while we fix he water problems etc and make them safe to work in during a pandemic? Just put the money in like they have elsewhere.

ThunbergsAreGo · 19-07-2020 08:19AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Is there much infection amongst the younger ones?

I don't know is the honest answer, don't know how many have been tested. It doesn't appear to be, but most schools closed quickly so no real baseline.

Creches should give us some idea. But 3, 13, 18 year old likely have a very different risk profile

jackboy · 19-07-2020 08:23AM

khalessi wrote: »

The basic argument is the government need to get a workforce back in place and they couldnt manage childcare for HCW, so ignore reports about children catching it, there are been a few and just reopen schools, the best child care service and automatically you have 1.1 million children sorted between primary and secondary.

All that is fine if they put in the proper investment. Why not say ok, we need to sort the schools out so they will be closed till midterm while we fix he water problems etc and make them safe to work in during a pandemic? Just put the money in like they have elsewhere.

Schools in other countries have opened with little difficulties. We need to do the same here, open primary schools as normal, no significant changes required.

Let’s be honest, there are no plans for the schools yet, there will not be significant plans developed. So, we will either have to open as normal or stay shut.

mirrorwall14 · 19-07-2020 08:24AM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Not sure what to think on this one. I was all for it, but if pubs can't open, then schools must be under threat. Kids are like young drinks, especially the smaller ones.

I think they have to try. It's not healthy for kids to not have school (or on parents sanity) and they can't stay closed forever. But then a short dose of normality and then back to closure might be as bad.

Very difficult situation all round.

Creches have been open a few weeks with no large uptick (or none attributed to creches). There should be almost two months of data on that by Sept

So maybe its just a bite the bullet approach.

Honestly, and I say this as a teacher, we can certainly open schools if we put the money in. The ONLY reason I can see for the delay and avoidance is they don’t want to fund it. I’m secondary school

Fund sanitiser In every room
Fund masks, visors and partitions for the desks at second level since our class sizes are so high
Fund classroom microphones so teachers can be heard by all when teaching through masks
Fund the building costs to knock doors into every ground floor classroom in the country which can be left open all day and used to keep corridor use to a minimum
Fund the building cost for additional sinks at the entry to the school
Pay for an analysis of each school to advise them how to be Covid compliant
Pay for panels of vetted subs (Even if they just have a degree in the subject) to be on call for illnesses as classes cannot be split and teachers will have to stay home
Pay for every curriculum to be adjusted for the coming year and the years afterwards to deal with the legacy of closures (and the possibility of more in the coming year)
Fund a full teaching portal for every subject at every level for the students who cannot attend due to pre-existing conditions
Put on extra school buses or put an adult on every bus to ensure mask compliance

That would go a hell of a long way towards getting us open and keeping so open

Then schools themselves with guidance from the department then could for example:
-stagger start and end times (yes it Might mean the first and last class times are short or long but it’s better than being at home and with curriculum adjustments students wouldn’t suffer)
-Organise for lunchtime to be staggered
-organise drop off points and lunchtime areas by group
-Maximise base class usage at second level where possible (first and second years could nearly be in their class group entirely if an alternative arrangement was put in place for options)
-organise the school by year groups eg sixth years on one corridor
-coordinate staff pods for lunches/prep periods so teachers are not all mixing
-insist on visor use and 1m distance from students as much and masks if approaching students (this means less group work but I’d prefer schools open and chalk and talk will still be better than zoom)
-form to be completed each morning by parents confirming students have no temperature and have no symptoms
-scrap uniform or go with a basic cheap generic school pants and shirt so that they can be changed daily. Uniform may be used if owned but must be washed daily
-all students wash or sanitise their hands at the entry to building
-students to carry their own small towel for hand washing
-Students need to be able to fit their books for the day in their bag and not need locker swaps as they are on top of each other. Adjustments by teachers need to be made for their requirements in each subject for this

That’s just off the top of my head. But honestly, the delay is money. Nothing more, nothing less. Every business in the country has funded changes to their business but the government are unwilling to do it

Crèches have opened with ratios FAR less than in our classrooms and following guidance like the above. You should see the restrictions and Covid regulations in my creche

All restrictions could be lifted slowly (like other countries) if we find it works

Wanderer78 · 19-07-2020 09:19AM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

I don't know is the honest answer, don't know how many have been tested. It doesn't appear to be, but most schools closed quickly so no real baseline.

Creches should give us some idea. But 3, 13, 18 year old likely have a very different risk profile

id be very concerned with exposing kids to this, god only knows what damage it would do to them, this is a tricky one, if i had kids, id be terrified

cwboy · 19-07-2020 09:40AM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

But honestly, the delay is money. Nothing more, nothing less. Every business in the country has funded changes to their business but the government are unwilling to do it
works

This is the crux of the matter. Proper funding would allow schools to open.

the corpo · 19-07-2020 10:22AM

But I don't think people understand the amount of funding necessary, especially given the emerging evidence. This most likely will go way beyond sanitisation stations. To make children from the age of 10 safe in our school buildings will most likely require....billions? The classrooms need to be entirely overhauled with proper ventilation systems installed.

I mean, that won't happen, but that's the only way we can safely put a full return of children into the existing buildings.

Bananaleaf · 19-07-2020 11:05AM

the corpo wrote: »

But I don't think people understand the amount of funding necessary, especially given the emerging evidence.

This is probably true

Boggles · 19-07-2020 11:09AM

the corpo wrote: »

But I don't think people understand the amount of funding necessary, especially given the emerging evidence. This most likely will go way beyond sanitisation stations. To make children from the age of 10 safe in our school buildings will most likely require....billions? The classrooms need to be entirely overhauled with proper ventilation systems installed.

I mean, that won't happen, but that's the only way we can safely put a full return of children into the existing buildings.

If I had child attending a school where their classroom was a 20 year old prefab with a electric storage heater running 24/7 to prevent mold and hypothermia they wouldn't be going.

FishOnABike · 19-07-2020 12:46PM

the corpo wrote: »

But I don't think people understand the amount of funding necessary, especially given the emerging evidence. This most likely will go way beyond sanitisation stations. To make children from the age of 10 safe in our school buildings will most likely require....billions? The classrooms need to be entirely overhauled with proper ventilation systems installed.

I mean, that won't happen, but that's the only way we can safely put a full return of children into the existing buildings.

Very true. There are pubs investing four and five figure sums over their shutdown period in renovations and reconfiguring their layout to allow them comply with health guidelines yet our government seem to have made no real practical or financial plans in the same time for schools. 'Ah, sure it will be grand' isn't a plan.

FishOnABike · 19-07-2020 12:58PM

jackboy wrote: »

Schools in other countries have opened with little difficulties. We need to do the same here, open primary schools as normal, no significant changes required.

Let’s be honest, there are no plans for the schools yet, there will not be significant plans developed. So, we will either have to open as normal or stay shut.

Israel, Melbourne ?

Opening is easy. Infection control is difficult and expensive. Without the latter schools will have to shut down again.

jackboy · 19-07-2020 01:20PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

Israel, Melbourne ?

Opening is easy. Infection control is difficult and expensive. Without the latter schools will have to shut down again.

Were spikes there caused by schools? I don’t think there is much evidence primary schools are responsible for spikes.

Murple · 19-07-2020 01:53PM

There more I see if how this virus is going, the more I think we should be aiming for half in, half out for September and review then. It would make such a difference at drop off and collection as well as in classrooms and on corridors. It would also allow for more attention to be given to settling children back to new routines with new teachers.
Some countries have followed that system- one group in Mon and Tues. School closed for full clean on Wed. Second group in Thurs and Fri. Work set in school and sent home to be done at home. Other areas have had one week in, one week at home.
I would much prefer everyone back in together and working as normal but I’m not sure it’s going to be possible.

is_that_so · 19-07-2020 01:59PM

jackboy wrote: »

Were spikes there caused by schools? I don’t think there is much evidence primary schools are responsible for spikes.

In Israel they had to shut them after an outbreak again so probably, Melbourne was more about adult activity.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/03/868507524/israel-orders-schools-to-close-when-covid-19-cases-are-discovered?t=1595163559203

khalessi · 19-07-2020 02:04PM

jackboy wrote: »

Were spikes there caused by schools? I don’t think there is much evidence primary schools are responsible for spikes.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israelis-fear-schools-reopened-too-soon-as-covid-19-cases-climb-11594760001

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8472451/SEVEN-schools-shut-Melbourne-linked-coronavirus-cases.html

maybe some link

Mrsmum · 19-07-2020 02:09PM

I have family members and a few friends who are teachers (primary) and I know in normal times, they get through tons of work keeping up with the curriculum which is double work for the teachers ie the huge behind the scenes workload and the in front of the class work. So now I am thinking, as probably children will be only in school part time, how much fluff for want of a better word is there in the curriculum ? I suppose I am really wondering if children have a year of part time schooling, will they be educationally just fine at the end of it or how educationally disadvantaged will they be for their age.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 19-07-2020 02:14PM

Murple wrote: »

There more I see if how this virus is going, the more I think we should be aiming for half in, half out for September and review then. It would make such a difference at drop off and collection as well as in classrooms and on corridors. It would also allow for more attention to be given to settling children back to new routines with new teachers.
Some countries have followed that system- one group in Mon and Tues. School closed for full clean on Wed. Second group in Thurs and Fri. Work set in school and sent home to be done at home. Other areas have had one week in, one week at home.
I would much prefer everyone back in together and working as normal but I’m not sure it’s going to be possible.

That's all well and good but a logistical nightmare for teachers who are parents and parents who have more than one child.

The schools with these systems have been opened for months now, some never fully closed and certainly didn't for a six month period.

Working parents will have struggled along for 6 months come September. It's a disgrace that there has been no indication of what we are to prepare for.

Good luck to them restarting the economy with a half assed education offering.

Contingency for us here is that we've started a proposal amongst a group of working parents to allow the kids to learn together (group of 6).

Similar to playdates but will be education based. We will take turns between us and hopefully all manage to hold down our jobs at the same time.

I'm willing to give it a try and at least we'll have a back up plan for the inevitable clusterf**ck that will be back to school this year.

Deeec · 19-07-2020 02:15PM

Murple wrote: »

There more I see if how this virus is going, the more I think we should be aiming for half in, half out for September and review then. It would make such a difference at drop off and collection as well as in classrooms and on corridors. It would also allow for more attention to be given to settling children back to new routines with new teachers.
Some countries have followed that system- one group in Mon and Tues. School closed for full clean on Wed. Second group in Thurs and Fri. Work set in school and sent home to be done at home. Other areas have had one week in, one week at home.
I would much prefer everyone back in together and working as normal but I’m not sure it’s going to be possible.

I think this would work - some school time is better than none. There is still the issue of PPE etc being sorted by the department though.

Bananaleaf · 19-07-2020 02:17PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I have family members and a few friends who are teachers (primary) and I know in normal times, they get through tons of work keeping up with the curriculum which is double work for the teachers ie the huge behind the scenes workload and the in front of the class work. So now I am thinking, as probably children will be only in school part time, how much fluff for want of a better word is there in the curriculum ? I suppose I am really wondering if children have a year of part time schooling, will they be educationally just fine at the end of it or how educationally disadvantaged will they be for their age.

Well I can tell you (as a post primary teacher) that if we can shelve all this 'group work', 'peer teaching' and changing the desk formation twice a day, we could save quite a lot of time!

Deeec · 19-07-2020 02:21PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

That's all well and good but a logistical nightmare for teachers who are parents and parents who have more than one child.

Working parents will have struggled along for 6 months come September. It's a disgrace that there has been no indication of what we are to prepare for.

Good luck to them restarting the economy with a half assed education offering.

Contingency for us here is that we've started a proposal amongst a group of working parents to allow the kids to learn together (group of 6).

Similar to playdates but will be education based. We will take turns between us and hopefully all manage to hold down our jobs at the same time.

I'm willing to give it a try and at least we'll have a back up plan for the inevitable clusterf**ck that will be back to school this year.

I agree it will be a mess for working parents but I would rather see my kids so back to school part time than being off all week. I am hoping my employer will facilitate this and allow me to work from home - but he may not allow this. I can see some parents though having to give up their jobs - hopefully the government will recognise this and come up with a payment to help such parents.
Also I am hearing a lot of childminders will not facilitate home schooling on the days children are not at school ( and why should they - they only paid to look after children). I don't think there is an easy solution.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 19-07-2020 03:01PM

Deeec wrote: »

I agree it will be a mess for working parents but I would rather see my kids so back to school part time than being off all week. I am hoping my employer will facilitate this and allow me to work from home - but he may not allow this. I can see some parents though having to give up their jobs - hopefully the government will recognise this and come up with a payment to help such parents.
Also I am hearing a lot of childminders will not facilitate home schooling on the days children are not at school ( and why should they - they only paid to look after children). I don't think there is an easy solution.

Agree there is no easy solution, perhaps childcare with teaching included could be a growing market for all the people who will have to give up their jobs because of this.

We couldn't work from home here so it was never an option anyway but I can see employers flexibility coming to an end very soon if it hasn't done so already for a lot of people.

The fact that I can walk into a pub today with kids in tow (not that I would but) and have a few pints albeit with some food, but can't bring kids to school is not a good reflection on our government.

wirelessdude01 · 19-07-2020 03:05PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

The fact that I can walk into a pub today with kids in tow (not that I would but) and have a few pints albeit with some food, but can't bring kids to school is not a good reflection on our government.

As it currently stands schools are to be fully open come the new school year. That is the current position.

How that is to be achieved is something all in education have yet to have seen laid out in a practical and workable sense.

Blondini · 19-07-2020 03:27PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

The fact that I can walk into a pub today with kids in tow (not that I would but) and have a few pints albeit with some food, but can't bring kids to school is not a good reflection on our government.

Who said you can't bring kids to school? Where's the announcement?

jrosen · 19-07-2020 03:28PM

I think at this point a plan, any sort of plan would be better than what we have. At least then we would know what we are dealing with and facing. Parents could at least plan.

FishOnABike · 19-07-2020 03:30PM

jackboy wrote: »

Were spikes there caused by schools? I don’t think there is much evidence primary schools are responsible for spikes.

Israel
https://www.nbcnews.co...r-reopening-n1233139

"According to Gabi Barbash, a former director general of the Health Ministry and professor of epidemiology at the Weizmann Institute, the main trigger for the new wave lies in the government’s decision to open schools, event halls and pubs, with infections surging among young people”

https://www.ijn.com/is...lockdowns-reimposed/

" The virus quickly spread through the education system, with tens of thousands of students forced into quarantine and outbreaks in some high schools.”

Melbourne
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-14/al-taqwa-coronavirus-outbreak-schools-reopening-questioned/12452266

” The number of COVID-19 cases linked to the Al-Taqwa College is approaching 150

Al-Taqua College is s primary and secondary school with approx. 2000 pupils. At thus stage over 150 cases have been linked to the school.

Despite precautions

"Every single child, every single day in the morning, [had] a temperature check before they were let in the school."

"And I also know that in every classroom they had the soap available at the entrance, the sanitisers.

"Every time a child went out of the class and came in they had to use the soap and sanitisers."

Sarath Ranganathan, head of the Paediatrics Department at the University of Melbourne, believes schools should remain closed for the entirety of the lockdown.

"At the moment, it's too risky to keep schools open and that balance has shifted towards locking the schools down again," he said.

Recent large scale studies have shown children as young as 10 are as likely as adults to spread the virus.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/health/coronavirus-children-schools.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

”Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. And those between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do.
.
.
Several studies from Europe and Asia have suggested that young children are less likely to get infected and to spread the virus. But most of those studies were small and flawed, said Dr. Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute.
.
.
Children under 10 were roughly half as likely as adults to spread the virus to others, consistent with other studies. That may be because children generally exhale less air — and therefore less virus-laden air — or because they exhale that air closer to the ground, making it less likely that adults would breathe it in.

Even so, the number of new infections seeded by children may rise when schools reopen, the study authors cautioned. “Young children may show higher attack rates when the school closure ends, contributing to community transmission of Covid-19,” they wrote. Other studies have also suggested that the large number of contacts for schoolchildren, who interact with dozens of others for a good part of the day, may cancel out their smaller risk of infecting others."

We are still learning about this virus.

Working from home is still recommended where possible. Large scale reopening of our schools presents one of the biggest opportunities for people mixing + interacting. Where else can you get up to 1000 people in one building, in groups of approx. 30 in a room, spaced less than a metre apart?

It is beyond belief that there appears to be no solid plans and no practical preparation for how schools will operate just a few short weeks before they are due to start back.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 19-07-2020 03:31PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

As it currently stands schools are to be fully open come the new school year. That is the current position.

How that is to be achieved is something all in education have yet to have seen laid out in a practical and workable sense.

There's 6 weeks to go and parents still not sure whether they need to get uniforms/books etc and parents/teachers not knowing if they will need additional childcare (or resign from their jobs) to facilitate partially opened schools.

If schools were profitable you can bet they'd be open well before now. Unfortunately the all important place of schools as part of our economy has been left behind.

Hearing politicians, unions and department representatives waffle on about making opening schools a priority at this stage is a joke.

is_that_so · 19-07-2020 03:32PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

As it currently stands schools are to be fully open come the new school year. That is the current position.

How that is to be achieved is something all in education have yet to have seen laid out in a practical and workable sense.

That's looking increasingly doubtful. The clock is ticking on it - 5/6 weeks to go. How exactly is the plan being developed?

dwayneshintzy · 19-07-2020 03:33PM

jackboy wrote: »

Were spikes there caused by schools? I don’t think there is much evidence primary schools are responsible for spikes.

Schools shut again in Hong Kong over the past couple weeks, and there were definitely cases in both primary and secondary schools. Hong Kong schools had never opened "as normal" either, they were on half days with no extra-curricular or after school activities. So the idea that it's either " open as normal or stay closed" isn't true of other countries really.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 19-07-2020 03:36PM

Blondini wrote: »

Who said you can't bring kids to school? Where's the announcement?

The schools should have been opened before now, given what happened this year they should have opened as soon as things were improving.

You think 2 months summer holidays was warranted under the circumstances?

Just in time for September they won't be able to open again because of case numbers. Every opportunity should have been taken to get kids back to school.

Schools opening a week here or there or 2 days a week or split groups, that all happened to facilitate schools remaining open or even partially open. But here nobody even bothered to try.

FishOnABike · 19-07-2020 03:37PM

is_that_so wrote: »

That's looking increasingly doubtful. The clock is ticking on it - 5/6 weeks to go. How exactly is the plan being developed?

Plan? There's a plan?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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