How will schools be able to go back in September?

NelRom · 17-07-2020 06:10PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

But they still complained. And looked for changes.

As for streaming live lessons, it's not effective in my experience and many who thought that's what they wanted realised it was actually not. I taught a small group of Leaving Certs during lockdown because they had no teacher. Their parents wanted live lessons. Then they wanted recorded content instead, or as well in some cases. Then they wanted both. Then they wanted just work set and corrected. Then they complained when I did all of that because it wasn't fair that the others were moving on with stuff in live lessons when their child hadn't had time yet to watch the recorded content. And it wasn't fair that others were moving on with recorded content when their child could only look at questions. So basically they all wanted different things and essentially private grinds. Not to mention that what their children wanted was not what they wanted. It was a full time job for 8 students. And I would definitely never agree to it again during to unreasonable expectations.

That does sound unusually unreasonable. To a much lesser extent and not related to tech- do you not deal with some of this anyway from parents in the normal scheme of things around curriculum, ability, homework not done?

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-07-2020 06:13PM

FC1 wrote: »

It sounds like you were dealing with very unreasonable people. It was not your fault if they did not find the time to watch the content. I get your frustration.

My problem wasn't even that they didn't get to watch it- that's fair enough in a busy house! But then don't complain if others move on without you and expect that everyone else should stop and wait until you do have time. Those who wanted to move ahead as they had no issues with access or time were annoyed at my trying to accommodate others. Those who struggled to keep up due to access or time wanted me to cater for them but also not allow anyone else move ahead in the interest of what they saw as fairness.

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-07-2020 06:18PM

NelRom wrote: »

That does sound unusually unreasonable. To a much lesser extent and not related to tech- do you not deal with some of this anyway from parents in the normal scheme of things around curriculum, ability, homework not done?

Yes to a certain extent. But schools have a lot in place to allow equality of opportunity in terms of resources in normal times - homework clubs, supervised study. And parents and students obviously felt their problems were more unfair during this time (if they didn't have a quiet space, or had to share tech, or mind children etc) so were far more demanding in wanting it addressed.

morebabies · 17-07-2020 06:20PM

If they do move to an online curriculum, I don't think live lessons would work at all, too many potential mishaps, Internet issues, etc., but a pre recorded set of lessons might, like they have available on homeschool.ie. Plus the teaching hours would be greatly reduced because there'd be no time spent on disciplining kids or making sure they have the right book, page, etc.

However, I totally understand that won't work in every household either with parents working or simply busy at home parents. I don't know what the solution is. What did they do with education in wartime for example, do we have any previous model that works when society faces an upheaval like this?

Murple · 17-07-2020 06:31PM

This idea of live streaming teaching may seem great but it presents a huge amount of difficulties. For a start, in every family, every child would have to have simultaneous access to a tablet/laptop/desktop with WiFi and sound on, in a different room/space for each child. Think how manageable that would be in a family with 3 primary age children.
There would need to be parental help available to sort any issues, keep the child focused etc. as the teacher is not going to be interacting with those at home. Younger children especially would quickly switch off.
The teacher would have to stay in the same place all the time to stay on camera and ensure they were heard. Unless you had professional standard recording equipment, the picture and sound would be of poor quality and those at home wouldn’t be able to see text on the board or hear everything being said for example.
The child protection issues and GDPR issues are huge. Every teacher would have to agree to being filmed and every parent would have to agree to their child possibly being filmed also. Personally I wouldn’t agree to it as it would set schools up for a whole heap of trouble.

If schools are reopening, teachers will teach the children in school. If a parent chooses not to send their child in, they will have to make their own provisions.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-07-2020 06:41PM

ziedth wrote: »

I would be a fairly passive and easy going guy and especially with all that is going on in the world I would like to try an do my part to help others and obviously my own kids. However, I will not be teaching my kids in September. Both Myself and my wife work full time and while i'm happy to help the kids with homework in he evening if needs be there is no way I'm coming in from a 10 hour day and then a further few hours to try and teach my 8 year old geography (or whatever).

Even if we were both out of work I can't see how that is fair? I'm not a teacher and I know for a fact I wouldn't be any good at it. Should my kids suffer because I'm not up to the task?

After working hard yourself all day then you should be free to spend the rest of the the day enjoying family time not having to cajole kids to do work that they really aren't interested in doing in a home environment.

Also time for yourself (something that I know we here have completely neglected through necessity rather than choice) is so so important.

I'm finding self care and time out is very difficult under the circumstances when we have so much on our plate, just managing the both of us being able to leave for work is a logistical nightmare. I can't remember the last time I was alone other than in a car driving to or from work

NelRom · 17-07-2020 06:42PM

Murple wrote: »

If schools are reopening, teachers will teach the children in school. If a parent chooses not to send their child in, they will have to make their own provisions.

And if they don't re open? Also do children with underlying health issues have to make their own provisions? Opening as normal is of course the 'ideal' but if it doesn't happen?

None of the reasons you gave are insurmountable. Parents who don't sign up don't have to partake as per the existing system where home schooling is a choice.

Teachers who won't sign up would need very good reasons to refuse to work when the rest of the world has moved with the times. Anyone who cannot due to broadband in the classroom- perhaps a neighbouring school/ parish could assist and the teacher goes and assists them in some way.
These are very different times requiring very different suggestions.

jrosen · 17-07-2020 06:51PM

Murple wrote: »

This idea of live streaming teaching may seem great but it presents a huge amount of difficulties. For a start, in every family, every child would have to have simultaneous access to a tablet/laptop/desktop with WiFi and sound on, in a different room/space for each child. Think how manageable that would be in a family with 3 primary age children.
There would need to be parental help available to sort any issues, keep the child focused etc. as the teacher is not going to be interacting with those at home. Younger children especially would quickly switch off.
The teacher would have to stay in the same place all the time to stay on camera and ensure they were heard. Unless you had professional standard recording equipment, the picture and sound would be of poor quality and those at home wouldn’t be able to see text on the board or hear everything being said for example.
The child protection issues and GDPR issues are huge. Every teacher would have to agree to being filmed and every parent would have to agree to their child possibly being filmed also. Personally I wouldn’t agree to it as it would set schools up for a whole heap of trouble.

If schools are reopening, teachers will teach the children in school. If a parent chooses not to send their child in, they will have to make their own provisions.

Im not saying its perfect. Im saying the feedback from parents were positive. They felt it was an acceptable solution.

There was also a secondary school in Naas that did on line classes for every subject every day. Im not sure how but the kids could ask questions as the class went along. Again feedback from another parent I know.

Mrsmum · 17-07-2020 07:02PM

I don't have children at Primary level anymore but just wondering did people find the RTE hub classes any use and could they be expanded as a better or more serious teaching tool, like properly doing the alphabet with small kids or teaching a history/georg/maths lesson ?
The more I'm reading this and seeing reports about cases rising, the more I think two days in and three days at home is as good as it's going to be. I'm imagining teaching/new learning being done in the school days, then the home days spent doing practice work ??
Another thing in my mind at the moment is school uniforms. Normally I would have two sets per child, some items being hand me downs. I heard I think a principal on the radio suggesting children use their own clothes this year so parents wouldn't have to buy multiples of school uniforms as they may have to be washed every day. Things like that parents would want to know about now.

khalessi · 17-07-2020 07:09PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't have children at Primary level anymore but just wondering did people find the RTE hub classes any use and could they be expanded as a better or more serious teaching tool, like properly doing the alphabet with small kids or teaching a history/georg/maths lesson ?
The more I'm reading this and seeing reports about cases rising, the more I think two days in and three days at home is as good as it's going to be. I'm imagining teaching/new learning being done in the school days, then the home days spent doing practice work ??
Another thing in my mind at the moment is school uniforms. Normally I would have two sets per child, some items being hand me downs. I heard I think a principal on the radio suggesting children use their own clothes this year so parents wouldn't have to buy multiples of school uniforms as they may have to be washed every day. Things like that parents would want to know about now.

I asked 6th class to watch them, they didnt like them, too young for them apparently. I think they had programmes for the older primary kids on the RTE Player but that kept freezing for me. I know its an issue with Player, there are a few threads on here about its poor quality, so I didnt bother with it for my kids.

byhookorbycrook · 17-07-2020 07:20PM

arctictree wrote: »

There is talk in my locality of some parents implementing a rota where they teach a specific class each day of the week in a rented building (GAA or local hall or something). I suppose life moves on ...

The parents would require Garda clearance . I can’t see many parents happy to have their child taken off site and supervised by someone who isn’t a teacher .

mirrorwall14 · 17-07-2020 07:27PM

jrosen wrote: »

Im not saying its perfect. Im saying the feedback from parents were positive. They felt it was an acceptable solution.

There was also a secondary school in Naas that did on line classes for every subject every day. Im not sure how but the kids could ask questions as the class went along. Again feedback from another parent I know.

Our school (secondary) followed the full timetable with combinations of work set, prerecorded lessons and live classes. As one (of the many) who had no childcare for the lockdown I prerecorded/set my classes and was available Practically all the time for comments/email responses. I did manage some live classes (the pressure was huge from management and precedent set by other teachers who were running their full timetable live) with my exam classes mostly but attendance wasn’t good.

Pre Easter the vast majority of students were engaged and submitted work. After Easter it was pretty awful, maybe 1/3-1/2 students at most?
And the paper work trying to follow up was insane. We had to yearbook students on a continuous basis who were missing deadlines

BonsaiKitten · 17-07-2020 07:41PM

I taught live lessons to my primary class during lockdown. It can be done but will not work for all. I teach in an affluent area and broadband access is good, devices are plentiful (and behavioural issues are rare). That's not the case in many schools.

I will say that teaching and learning was effective - we did English, Irish and Maths online with a little homework set for offline - and the routine/social interaction was good for the children. However if that were rolled out across the country it would disadvantage children who don't come from similar privileged backgrounds.

BonsaiKitten · 17-07-2020 07:45PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't have children at Primary level anymore but just wondering did people find the RTE hub classes any use and could they be expanded as a better or more serious teaching tool, like properly doing the alphabet with small kids or teaching a history/georg/maths lesson ?

For what it was I thought the Hub was good. Very difficult to cater to all those class levels in one TV show! If we did shut down again I think the Hub could be a good way to cover SESE work. Have a specific programme for 1st/2nd, another 3rd/4th etc and then do a little bit of simple History, Geography or Science for each daily. Perhaps some Art too?

lulublue22 · 17-07-2020 07:50PM

FC1 wrote: »

It sounds like you were dealing with very unreasonable people. It was not your fault if they did not find the time to watch the content. I get your frustration.

Not really though. In my experience parents base their expectations on their own personal experience ie work situation, siblings etc and then generalise this as the “best” practice without realising that you can’t generalise across 30 children. Couple that with a genuine lack of understanding re differentiation - not all children learn the same or at the same rate and online learning is a disaster at primary level. I for one would hate to go back to online learning in Sep. It was very stressful - trying to accommodate as many different situations as possible while keeping my own two on track was bloody hard. Though I will say my parents were appreciative especially the longer the shutdown went on.

lulublue22 · 17-07-2020 07:56PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I taught live lessons to my primary class during lockdown. It can be done but will not work for all. I teach in an affluent area and broadband access is good, devices are plentiful (and behavioural issues are rare). That's not the case in many schools.

I will say that teaching and learning was effective - we did English, Irish and Maths online with a little homework set for offline - and the routine/social interaction was good for the children. However if that were rolled out across the country it would disadvantage children who don't come from similar privileged backgrounds.

I have a lot of children with various special needs including behavior and I would be very concerned re the child’s right to privacy and dignity being maintained if live lessons were mandatory. Peers are very accepting and forgiving. I’m not sure a child’s struggles to grasp concepts and or meltdowns needs to be broadcast to every parent in the class.

BonsaiKitten · 17-07-2020 08:01PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

I have a lot of children with various special needs including behavior and I would be very concerned re the child’s right to privacy and dignity being maintained if live lessons were mandatory. Peers are very accepting and forgiving. I’m not sure a child’s struggles to grasp concepts needs to be broadcast to every parent in the class.

Oh when we return to school livestreaming lessons from the classroom wouldn't work. Apart from anything else it wouldn't be all that engaging for those sitting at home, I doubt they'd learn much.

For shutdown times the live lessons worked fine. Wouldn't class it as equal to face to face teaching but it worked well considering all the restrictions. Again though that was in my specific school and it would have been disastrous in others.

Lillyfae · 17-07-2020 08:04PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The parents would require Garda clearance . I can’t see many parents happy to have their child taken off site and supervised by someone who isn’t a teacher .

Add to that it’s basically school, except in the GAA hall.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-07-2020 08:07PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I taught live lessons to my primary class during lockdown. It can be done but will not work for all. I teach in an affluent area and broadband access is good, devices are plentiful (and behavioural issues are rare). That's not the case in many schools.

I will say that teaching and learning was effective - we did English, Irish and Maths online with a little homework set for offline - and the routine/social interaction was good for the children. However if that were rolled out across the country it would disadvantage children who don't come from similar privileged backgrounds.

I wish my child's teacher had made such an effort, sounds like you did a really great job.

I think kids would be more inclined to do the work if they can still see you (the teacher) and its group based (still see classmates).

Seems like a better option than mammy or daddy sitting at the table wondering where it all went wrong

lulublue22 · 17-07-2020 08:13PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Oh when we return to school livestreaming lessons from the classroom wouldn't work. Apart from anything else it wouldn't be all that engaging for those sitting at home, I doubt they'd learn much.

For shutdown times the live lessons worked fine. Wouldn't class it as equal to face to face teaching but it worked well considering all the restrictions. Again though that was in my specific school and it would have been disastrous in others.

I’m sure it worked very well but in our school context it wouldn’t have. I think thats a major difficulty - not all schools are carbon copies of each other.

Deeec · 17-07-2020 08:17PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I taught live lessons to my primary class during lockdown. It can be done but will not work for all. I teach in an affluent area and broadband access is good, devices are plentiful (and behavioural issues are rare). That's not the case in many schools.

I will say that teaching and learning was effective - we did English, Irish and Maths online with a little homework set for offline - and the routine/social interaction was good for the children. However if that were rolled out across the country it would disadvantage children who don't come from similar privileged backgrounds.

Well done - it sounds like you done a brilliant job. I would have loved if similar was done by my Childrens school. We too live in quite an affluent area where technology and broadband is no issue - yet no effort was put in by the principle. It sounds like the right mix of work. I would even settle for recorded lessons instead of live. My children just got one email per week -To them it was like their teachers had vanished

NelRom · 17-07-2020 08:18PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

I’m sure it worked very well but in our school context it wouldn’t have. I think thats a major difficulty - not all schools are carbon copies of each other.

No, they are not, but as many workarounds will have to be found as possible if the schools do not re-open. Any actual teaching is better than none.

Most private sector contracts state that your duties may change, your work may require travel etc.
Do teaching contracts not call out a need for flexibility?

lulublue22 · 17-07-2020 08:29PM

NelRom wrote: »

No, they are not, but as many workarounds will have to be found as possible if the schools do not re-open. Any actual teaching is better than none.

Most private sector contracts state that your duties may change, your work may require travel etc.
Do teaching contracts not call out a need for flexibility?

I have no idea where you are getting lack of flexibility from ? or is it that because in your opinion it would work very well for your children and those that you know that you feel it’s applicable in all school contexts ? There are schools out there that are not your typical primary school - yes they are a minority but they do exist. So when I say it would not work in my school context I mean it would not work in my school context not that our staff are too inflexible to implement it.

NelRom · 17-07-2020 08:55PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

I have no idea where you are getting lack of flexibility from ? or is it that because in your opinion it would work very well for your children and those that you know that you feel it’s applicable in all school contexts ? There are schools out there that are not your typical primary school - yes they are a minority but they do exist. So when I say it would not work in my school context I mean it would not work in my school context not that our staff are too inflexible to implement it.

You're right, sorry about that- it was coloured by previous posters coming up with all the reasons it couldn't happen which I see as inflexible.
So, you are talking about the building and infrastructure rather than people? This is what I mean by workarounds, perhaps a school in a different area would have to help you with online content and availability and then your school contributes in different ways.
Again these are just suggestions, I am just in the camp of 'if school doesn't go back- what can we do to teach' and the answer can't be more of what we had before the holidays.

wirelessdude01 · 17-07-2020 09:08PM

NelRom wrote: »

You're right, sorry about that- it was coloured by previous posters coming up with all the reasons it couldn't happen which I see as inflexible.
So, you are talking about the building and infrastructure rather than people? This is what I mean by workarounds, perhaps a school in a different area would have to help you with online content and availability and then your school contributes in different ways.
Again these are just suggestions, I am just in the camp of 'if school doesn't go back- what can we do to teach' and the answer can't be more of what we had before the holidays.

Schools generally don't work together. Now with this you could maybe see the ETBs or ET school organisations coming out with something but as a general rule each school it doesn't occur.

I'll keep going back to how we are still waiting on the department. The structure has to come from them and then we can plan and adapt to suit our own unique school setting and environment.

ginoginelli · 17-07-2020 09:17PM

Theres not a hope in hell schools will be able to go back at full capacity in September. Formulating an online system should be prioritized now. At least the kids will get some type of education then for next year.

jlm29 · 17-07-2020 10:04PM

NelRom wrote: »

You're right, sorry about that- it was coloured by previous posters coming up with all the reasons it couldn't happen which I see as inflexible.
So, you are talking about the building and infrastructure rather than people? This is what I mean by workarounds, perhaps a school in a different area would have to help you with online content and availability and then your school contributes in different ways.
Again these are just suggestions, I am just in the camp of 'if school doesn't go back- what can we do to teach' and the answer can't be more of what we had before the holidays.

A lot of the reasons are very valid though, not inflexible. Whatever happens needs to be fair and consistent. I’m not a teacher, I’m a parent, and I could give you multiple reasons why online teaching is just not really going to work for us next year.

combat14 · 17-07-2020 11:19PM

ben dunne closes gyms to save lives.. puts opening schools in perspective.. worth a read...

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/id-rather-go-bust-than-bury-customers-ben-dunne-closes-gyms-doors-until-vaccine-or-treatment-for-covid-19-found-39376231.html

mcsean2163 · 18-07-2020 01:23AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Add to that it’s basically school, except in the GAA hall.

Garda clearance is basically an application form and that's it. The parents may not be good at teaching but Garda clearance shouldn't be an issue.

I was thinking the same myself. I'm pretty good at math and it would be easier teaching a bunch of primary school kids than one child as the children work together. If the schools are closed it sounds like a good alternative, especially for families living in cities, maybe two parents could teach at the same time for child safety?

namloc1980 · 18-07-2020 01:44AM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Garda clearance is basically an application form and that's it. The parents may not be good at teaching but Garda clearance shouldn't be an issue.

It isn't that simple. The National Vetting Bureau does not do vetting for individuals on a personal basis, its statutory basis is to vet people for registered organisations. It's literally on their webpage "Garda vetting is conducted on behalf of registered organisations only and is not conducted for individual persons on a personal basis." If these parents want to go teaching they'd have to set up and become a registered organisation with the Vetting Bureau and then get the proposed "teachers" vetted. Throw in data protection issues, insurance, a host of other issues and lack of teaching knowledge/skills and I'm not sure it would be worth the inevitable hassle.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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