How will schools be able to go back in September?

jlm29 · 16-07-2020 09:59AM

Millem wrote: »

I agree with you. Our school has most items crested!! I get him to change him straight away when he comes home. I buy two of everything anyway. 2 days in wears a tracksuit and 3 days uniform. The crested items were expensive (school jumper €30ish and pe jumper €25ish) but then I just bought the shirts and trousers in aldi and they were grand!!! I wouldn’t care buying 5 of every though if it meant he could go back to school!!!

Not sure though if they will be doing pe next year?? My son’s school has a separate pe teacher.
In my own school (secondary) we know what we are due to teach and pe is on the timetable

There’s a little company near me that puts the crests on plain jumpers and sweatshirts for €5 a crest. So I’ve ordered plain ones from next/dunnes and will get crests put on. Have found the sizing hit and miss with the ones that come from the uniform shop. And the quality not always great, so said I’d try it this way this year.
Sorry for the off topic!

wirelessdude01 · 16-07-2020 10:01AM

Deeec wrote: »

I suppose my point is surely if kids wear a clean uniform/tracksuit every day its the same as clean ordinary clothes every day. Someone mentioned before kids are going to be wearing the same coat and shoes every day without washing so I don't know what it is achieving by having no uniform.

I agree and generally cheaper as well. I know in our school we have crested and non-crested jumpers so parents have a choice. Issue really with uniforms comes down to some families not liking to have wear the same as others. The idea that they have to conform.

lulublue22 · 16-07-2020 10:11AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

The only thing I would be resistant to here is your spelling.

Rant Alert

As a teacher this is my biggest bugbear. The equating of spelling as somehow indicative of how educated or intelligent someone is. You see it all the time on boards - it’s the go to diss. I teach a lot of dyslexic children - I have a senior child this year who can not access text or spell cvc words. But that is what it is an inability to access text - he is a highly intelligent child with huge potential. Before anyone jumps on the well a teacher should have a high standard of spelling to do their job effectively rubbish - I teach my kids that it’s ok to make mistakes - everyone does what’s important is learning from them.

Rant over ðŸ˜

Lillyfae · 16-07-2020 10:18AM

I appreciate your point and definitely agree with you, KerryConnor, but I think you'll also agree with me that not everyone pulls their weight in the sector- and I'm not just talking about the teaching staff on the ground.

KerryConnor wrote: »

I think education in this country is very good dispite underfunding. Its not bells and whistle s (as we ve discovered) but then in normal circumstances it doesn't have to be. Nearly the simpler the better.

I would not class toilet paper and soap as bells and whistles. I've said it before, every school in the country should be plug and play, teachers with devices that are linked to a school network which they put on a docking station when they get in to work in the morning. White boards and screens, not chalk and endless printing. Teachers buying pencils so that the children can colour ffs.

Employ people who actually know what they're doing in Management, IT, facilities etc etc and run it properly rather than having someone who is a teaching graduate doing every conceivable job in the whole sector. And retire people who are supposed to retire and let the next generation come in!!

Lillyfae · 16-07-2020 10:20AM

lulublue22 wrote: »

Lillyfae wrote: »

The only thing I would be resistant to here is your spelling.

Rant Alert

As a teacher this is my biggest bugbear. The equating of spelling as somehow indicative of how educated or intelligent someone is. You see it all the time on boards - it’s the go to diss. I teach a lot of dyslexic children - I have a senior child this year who can not access text or spell cvc words. But that is what it is an inability to access text - he is a highly intelligent child with huge potential. Before anyone jumps on the well a teacher should have a high standard of spelling to do there job effectively rubbish - I teach my kids that it’s ok to make mistakes - everyone does what’s important is learning from them.

Rant over ðŸ˜

Touché, and apologies to Khalessi.

wirelessdude01 · 16-07-2020 10:26AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I appreciate your point and definitely agree with you, KerryConnor, but I think you'll also agree with me that not everyone pulls their weight in the sector- and I'm not just talking about the teaching staff on the ground.

I would not class toilet paper and soap as bells and whistles. I've said it before, every school in the country should be plug and play, teachers with devices that are linked to a school network which they put on a docking station when they get in to work in the morning. White boards and screens, not chalk and endless printing. Teachers buying pencils so that the children can colour ffs.

Employ people who actually know what they're doing in Management, IT, facilities etc etc and run it properly rather than having someone who is a teaching graduate doing every conceivable job in the whole sector. And retire people who are supposed to retire and let the next generation come in!!

Money, money, money. Govt never see the point in funding our education sector properly.

Millem · 16-07-2020 10:29AM

jlm29 wrote: »

There’s a little company near me that puts the crests on plain jumpers and sweatshirts for €5 a crest. So I’ve ordered plain ones from next/dunnes and will get crests put on. Have found the sizing hit and miss with the ones that come from the uniform shop. And the quality not always great, so said I’d try it this way this year.
Sorry for the off topic!

I have heard of a similar place in “rocking bobbin” or something like that around walkinstown.
Our pe tops are a half zip jumper with two colours on it you wouldn’t be able to buy them anywhere.
The school jumper is like a wool jumper so again it’s different to the one you buy in dunnes etc. I do think the will jumper is good quality though.
All the crested stuff still fit him for now but I reckon by Christmas I will need next size.
My preference anyway for junior classes would be there tracksuit every day

Icantthinkof1 · 16-07-2020 10:37AM

I know this thread is about school returning in September so apologies in advance but I’m curious will colleges return in September?
I hope they don’t

wirelessdude01 · 16-07-2020 10:38AM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

I know this thread is about school returning in September so apologies in advance but I’m curious will colleges return in September?
I hope they don’t

Know some have already announced that the first semester will be all online.

Lillyfae · 16-07-2020 10:39AM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

I know this thread is about school returning in September so apologies in advance but I’m curious will colleges return in September?
I hope they don’t

They would be in a trickier position to reopen in as much as movement of people (overseas students etc) would be more likely but obviously better equipped for distance learning.

Lillyfae · 16-07-2020 10:45AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Money, money, money. Govt never see the point in funding our education sector properly.

Money for what? Supplies or professionals? Because I would bet that the professionals are pretty well funded.

khalessi · 16-07-2020 10:47AM

Answered in blue

Lillyfae wrote: »

Distance learning is a module covered at University level. I studied it years ago and have since had continuous updating of my knowledge and skills on it. If it's not taught to teachers in training then the training is not fit for the purpose of getting children to third level.

You took it as an adult at university level aimed at adults. It has to be further developed and adapted to be used to teach children. No one ever expected we would need it for a pandemic for primary school, but now we move forward.

Not computer savvy? Today?? Not a valid excuse at all.

Hence I made a point of saying so to the school, and also I felt the platform used was not condusive to learning. I also made a point of saying the learning support teacher was fabulous and very helpful. But I will say there are a number of teachers who are not computer savvy and didnt need to be as they have amazing skills in other areas and no one realsied a pandemic was coming.

That's not innovation Khalessi, that's education. I don't even know what the bit in bold is supposed to mean.

The innovation is how it is gone about, which is over and above what is in the curriculum, entering Young Scientists exhibition every year, winning national music competitions, investing and using STEM in innovative ways, using IT in interesting ways and have been doing so for nearly 20 years, the norm now but innovative when we did it. Encouraging children to see Maths through new eyes and learn it in new ways, implementing the daily mile programme which showed improvements in fitness, mental wellbeing, attention levels and discipline, and this is separate to pe. Implementing a pe at home programme to combat obesity and make fitness fun, getting all the family and community involved. Maths week, Science week, Wellbeing week, Culture week. That is innovation, not just education. I could go on but it is more than education and the important thing is the children love it. The highlighted part is a reference to the fact that unless a school gets on tv no one realises how they are being innovative.

Well 90% of the time it's "The Department" won't do this or "The BoM" won't allow that. The problem is that some teachers on the thread are taking everything like it's their personal problem to solve. All you can do is teach, and take suggestions/ solutions/ issues to your manager. It is not your job to solve the education problem. You are not qualified to do this, nobody expects you to do this.

Well if I or teachers are not qualified to do it and we work in the area of education then people on here who feel they can comment freely while not working in education are definiftely not qualified to comment on it. And teachers do teach while it is all going on.
It might not be our job to solve the problems but there are a lot of non teachers on here who are critical of teachers and think we should be providing solutions and then criticise if they dont. I dont think teachers see it as their personal problem, I just think the same teachers on here answers questions as they are regular posters on the thread so it can look like that.

The only thing I disagree with here is your spelling

Lovely. Thank you.

The definition of constructive criticism seems very subjective at times, and this comment could come from either side of the argument to be fair. There is definitely right and wrong on both sides.

wirelessdude01 · 16-07-2020 10:51AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Money for what? Supplies or professionals? Because I would bet that the professionals are pretty well funded.

Equipment, networking of schools, funding to train people in how to use them. This is all money. We aren't funded properly. Remember why do a lot of schools have to ask for voluntary contributions to cover basics.

Also prior to this crisis there had been huge resistance to moving things online and/or using electronic books. A very public example of this would be the secondary school in Ratoath and one in Claremorris that ended up on the front pages of the national papers with protests.

Lillyfae · 16-07-2020 10:55AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Equipment, networking of schools, funding to train people in how to use them. This is all money. We aren't funded properly. Remember why do a lot of schools have to ask for voluntary contributions to cover basics.

Having professionals with the knowledge and skills to manage the money and the people would go a long way to solving this problem.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Also prior to this crisis there had been huge resistance to moving things online and/or using electronic books. A very public example of this would be the secondary school in Ratoath and one in Claremorris that ended up on the front pages of the national papers with protests.

I've heard of this but I'm not completely familiar, would appreciate a source so that I can form an opinion.

wirelessdude01 · 16-07-2020 10:58AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Having professionals with the knowledge and skills to manage the money and the people would go a long way to solving this problem.

I've heard of this but I'm not completely familiar, would appreciate a source so that I can form an opinion.

Manage what money? That's the issue that us teachers on here keep banging on about.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-of-school-at-centre-of-ipad-row-defends-policy-on-digital-devices-1.3911135

There is one example. Very easy to go find more if are so inclined.

SusanC10 · 16-07-2020 11:12AM

Will Students and Teachers need to self-isolate for 14 days and not go to school if they go on abroad in the 2nd half of August ? Or mid-Term etc.

SusanC10 · 16-07-2020 11:12AM

Double Post

wirelessdude01 · 16-07-2020 11:21AM

SusanC10 wrote: »

Will Students and Teachers need to self-isolate for 14 days and not go to school if they go on abroad in the 2nd half of August ? Or mid-Term etc.

As it currently stands, in theory they would.

I know our GAA club has told us all that anyone who goes abroad isn't allowed partake in any club activities for the 14 days after they arrive home.

combat14 · 16-07-2020 11:35AM

hard to see schools open at all now the end of august with pubs barely being allowed open the 10 aug if that even happens....

markodaly · 16-07-2020 11:55AM

Deeec wrote: »

I think no uniforms will just make it harder on families. My 9.5 yr old is very fashion conscious - school will become a fashion show. It is much cheaper ( primary school) to buy a few uniforms from dunnes than to buying expensive clothes to be the same as their friends. Its a ridiculous decision. Even the school tracksuit in my kids school is cheap to buy.

FFS come off it, we are in the middle of a global pandemic and the fashion decisions of a 9-year-old should not decide the best way forward when it comes to making a decision.

Sometimes, I pity the DoE when these are the submissions and suggestions they would be getting.

wirelessdude01 · 16-07-2020 12:05PM

markodaly wrote: »

FFS come off it, we are in the middle of a global pandemic and the fashion decisions of a 9-year-old should not decide the best way forward when it comes to making a decision.

Sometimes, I pity the DoE when these are the submissions and suggestions they would be getting.

Think you'll find someone taking out loud of boards isn't actually a submission to the dept ðŸ€”

Lillyfae · 16-07-2020 12:15PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Manage what money? That's the issue that us teachers on here keep banging on about.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/principal-of-school-at-centre-of-ipad-row-defends-policy-on-digital-devices-1.3911135

There is money of course, but there are clearly no competent professionals in the organisation to procure and manage it properly. And everybody is "banging on" about it.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

There is one example. Very easy to go find more if are so inclined.

What's with the tone?

markodaly · 16-07-2020 12:17PM

khalessi wrote: »

I disagree that there is resisitance to change. Change happens all the time in teaching, it is a career you have to be flexible in and up for change. Being resisitant to change is not pointing out where there are flaws in a plan or suggestions to help something happen, like say the reopening of schools, or saying finance is required, it is being honest and practical.

I disagree that there is resisitance to change. Change happens all the time in teaching, it is a career you have to be flexible in and up for change.

I disagree with you there. Irish teachers are very set in their ways, in my experience.

To take one example, why do Irish teacher have so much more summer holidays than their UK, US, Australian, NZ and European counterparts.
Secondary school students no longer have to go out to the farm and harvest the crop, the original reason to the long break, yet would Irish teachers be happy to revert to European norms?

However, its understandable if you take a look at the usual demographic that makes up primary teachers. Female, white, Irish and rural would make up the vast vast majority of Irish primary teachers, which in no way shape or form, is a representation of the wider Irish community. The Irish language is the artificial barrier here, and primary teachers know only too well that with that there, they are on to a good one. No 'outsiders' can take their job. Its kinda a discussion for another day, but that would be another example.

markodaly · 16-07-2020 12:20PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Think you'll find someone taking out loud of boards isn't actually a submission to the dept &#55356;&#56340;

Perhaps, but its a nice indication of the actual core issue here. Its like herding cats, every Tom, Dick and Harry has an opinion.

The LC debacle for example. The government had a plan but were kinda left hanging out to dry by other stakeholders, so the chickened out of it and now students and teachers are in a worse position, but that is what one gets for being a fence sitter.

BonsaiKitten · 16-07-2020 12:26PM

SusanC10 wrote: »

Will Students and Teachers need to self-isolate for 14 days and not go to school if they go on abroad in the 2nd half of August ? Or mid-Term etc.

That's what the private schools seem to be saying to parents anyway. I don't know if public schools could enforce it without a directive from the Government.

iamwhoiam · 16-07-2020 12:35PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

That's what the private schools seem to be saying to parents anyway. I don't know if public schools could enforce it without a directive from the Government.

Surely anyone that chooses to go abroad and need to isolate for 14 days would not be paid for those 14 days then ?

BonsaiKitten · 16-07-2020 12:50PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Surely anyone that chooses to go abroad and need to isolate for 14 days would not be paid for those 14 days then ?

I don't know about staff expectations, I just know what's been to said to parents about children attending school. I presume staff are the same.

Some of the private secondaries are running quarantine in their boarding houses for students from abroad (they'd have a lot). The kids don't have to quarantine there if they can prove they quarantined elsewhere in Ireland.

IrishHomer · 16-07-2020 12:58PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Surely anyone that chooses to go abroad and need to isolate for 14 days would not be paid for those 14 days then ?

I can work from home and I have a flat/office at the rear or my home

khalessi · 16-07-2020 01:17PM

markodaly wrote: »

I disagree that there is resisitance to change. Change happens all the time in teaching, it is a career you have to be flexible in and up for change.

I disagree with you there. Irish teachers are very set in their ways, in my experience.

To take one example, why do Irish teacher have so much more summer holidays than their UK, US, Australian, NZ and European counterparts.
Secondary school students no longer have to go out to the farm and harvest the crop, the original reason to the long break, yet would Irish teachers be happy to revert to European norms?

However, its understandable if you take a look at the usual demographic that makes up primary teachers. Female, white, Irish and rural would make up the vast vast majority of Irish primary teachers, which in no way shape or form, is a representation of the wider Irish community. The Irish language is the artificial barrier here, and primary teachers know only too well that with that there, they are on to a good one. No 'outsiders' can take their job. Its kinda a discussion for another day, but that would be another example.

How come it always comes down to the holidays.:rolleyes: It amazes me how non teachers always circle on the holidays and don't take into account the rest of the job.

Teacher contact hours
For the craic I put our European counterparts in green and your other suggestionsonly one it appears does more than Ireland. So I am confused if we match European counterparts should we be doing less?

New Zealand have 16 hours more, Australia about 36 less thereabouts, US about 99 hours more thereabouts. The Department tend to look to the Finnish model for guidance thought import ideas from UK, which have been tried and discarded.

Costa Rica 1 188.00
Chile 1 063.47
Latvia 1 020.00
United States 1 004.37
Colombia 1 000.00
Netherlands 930.00
New Zealand 921.60
Ireland 905.00
France 900.00
Spain 880.00
Australia 869.57
Israel 842.54
Luxembourg 809.60
Germany 799.54
Canada 797.14
Switzerland 784.75
Denmark 784.00
Slovak Republic 783.10
Mexico 780.00
Austria 779.40
Portugal 774.00
Italy 754.60
Norway 741.00
Japan 739.08
Turkey 720.00
Finland 676.80
Korea 674.64
Greece 663.75
Hungary 648.00
Slovenia 627.00
Iceland 623.88
Czech Republic 617.10
Lithuania 612.00
Estonia 584.80
Russia 561.00
Poland 560.70

Now lets look at educational standings

The key findings of the 2018 assessments include:

Ireland ranks 4th out of 36 OECD countries and 3rd out of 27 EU countries for reading literacy
Ireland ranks 8th out of 77 countries/regions involved in PISA 2018 for reading literacy[1]
in reading, Ireland has significantly fewer low-performing students (11.8% below level 2) and significantly more high performers (12.1% at levels 5 and 6) than the OECD average

PISA takes place every three years and aims to measure how well 15 year-old students are performing in three areas – reading, mathematics and science.

The key findings of the 2018 assessments include:

Ireland ranks 4th out of 36 OECD countries and 3rd out of 27 EU countries for reading literacy
Ireland ranks 8th out of 77 countries/regions involved in PISA 2018 for reading literacy[1]
in reading, Ireland has significantly fewer low-performing students (11.8% below level 2) and significantly more high performers (12.1% at levels 5 and 6) than the OECD average
PISA results show the difference in performance between schools in Ireland is lower than the OECD
in Ireland, the difference between schools in student performance in reading literacy is less than half of what it is, on average, across OECD countries[2]
post-primary schools in Ireland can therefore be considered relatively equitable, as well as having above average performance in the three assessment domains

“Irish students have extremely high standards when it comes to reading, among the best there is. The number of low achieving students is among the lowest in the 77 countries tested.

“It is an envious position to be in and credit must go to the education initiatives being promoted by the department like the National Strategy on Literacy and Numeracy for Learning and Life (2011-2020) and how these are adopted by our schools, thanks to the dedication of our teachers.

Only 2% of the Irish students taking the PISA 2018 test had experienced the new science curriculum. The 2021 round of PISA will provide a better estimation of the extent to which the Junior Cycle changes in science are effective.

Other findings from PISA 2018
Ireland has a lower percentage of low-performing students in all three domains than on average across OECD countries
girls perform better than boys in reading, with a difference of 23.2 score points[3]
Ireland’s performance in science and mathematics has remained relatively stable – above the OECD average scores – between 2015 and 2018 cycles
girls perform slightly better than boys in science but the results are not considered statistically significant
in science, students ranked 17th out of 37 OECD countries, 11th out of 28 EU countries and 22nd out of 78 participating countries/regions
Ireland has a lower than average number of low performing students in science
in mathematics, Irish students ranked 16th out of 37 OECD countries and 21st out of 78 participating countries/regions
Ireland has a lower than average number of low performing students in maths

It seems internationally we are doing ok. There are always improvements to be made and that is what we strive to do. Holidays are arranged differently around the world to suit the particular country's circumstances. Holidays also take into account the children's wellbeing or do you think they don't need a break?

I am confused by what you mean by no outsiders can take their jobs?

People can go learn Irish to become primary teachers. I went back and sat the Leaving Cert so I could teach in primary schools and at that stage I already had a professional qualification, an academic undergrad and postgrad qualification. I then had the option of doing the postgrad in education, but chose the undergrad in order to ensure my Irish was a good enough standard. If you want it you will find a way.

https://data.oecd.org/teachers/teaching-hours.htm
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f6e114-major-international-study-finds-irelands-students-among-top-performe/#:~:text=Ireland%20ranks%208th%20out%20of,6)%20than%20the%20OECD%20average

iamwhoiam · 16-07-2020 01:45PM

IrishHomer wrote: »

I can work from home and I have a flat/office at the rear or my home

Are you a teacher ?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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