How will schools be able to go back in September?

History Queen · 15-07-2020 01:44PM

jrosen wrote: »

Why would PPE not be funded? Haven't the state funded PPE for other public offices and locations? Why would providing PPE for teachers be any different?

Our secondary school is already looking for money for September and its gone up by 20euro.

Because schools are already underfunded as it is. We have no faith in the Department to fund them adequately. As you said yourself your own school is trying to make up the short fall.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 01:44PM

khalessi wrote: »

The leadership is supposed to come from the Dept of Educaiton so in that respect you are correct. This leaves BOM to come up with guidelines and all that has to be done is to point out legal right to safe working environment and they will cave.
We have been told we can wear PPE if we choose.

While I am not here to defend the DoE you may be right, but it is convenient of course for teachers to lay the blame back onto the government, while their own leadership during this crisis has been, well at best, absent and at worse a complete dereliction of duty and care.

The Unions are no better and people are seeing that. The teachers should really elect some new capable blood into their ranks.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 01:47PM

Treppen wrote: »

A Union looks after its members terms and conditions, nothing unusual or immoral about that BUT it also does advocate on behalf of students in terms of class sizes and funding etc. The unions are including children's welfare in their talks with the government too btw.

Maybe you should refer the matter onto ISSU and encourage them to abstain from school.

So, you have it in one, the bit in bold. Yes they look after their own, so of course, they will be prepared to go on strike for a pay deal, but not for increased funding into the education system, apart from lip service.

This has been a strategic error on behalf of teachers, and their Unions for decades and now it has come home to roost in a big way. If teacher Unions actually cared and put their students first for once, then maybe people would be on their side.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 01:49PM

Treppen wrote: »

But at the same time you and your Ilk are giving out about about the lack of solutions from teachers and unions. Never asks what the ultimate leaders in education are going to do!

Still flying the FG flag I see.

FG has nothing to do with this but again, it's convenient to try and wedge a political party divide into this debate. I am asking genuine questions about the lack of leadership in our education system and it seems to be irking some and it may be close to the bone of truth.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 01:54PM

markodaly wrote: »

So, you have it in one, the bit in bold. Yes they look after their own, so of course, they will be prepared to go on strike for a pay deal, but not for increased funding into the education system, apart from lip service.

This has been a strategic error on behalf of teachers, and their Unions for decades and now it has come home to roost in a big way. If teacher Unions actually cared and put their students first for once, then maybe people would be on their side.

Only person that has mentioned pay are people like you just trying to stir the pot. Go spew your nonsense elsewhere.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 01:54PM

markodaly wrote: »

So, you have it in one, the bit in bold. Yes they look after their own, so of course, they will be prepared to go on strike for a pay deal, but not for increased funding into the education system, apart from lip service.

This has been a strategic error on behalf of teachers, and their Unions for decades and now it has come home to roost in a big way. If teacher Unions actually cared and put their students first for once, then maybe people would be on their side.

Only person that has mentioned pay are people like you just trying to stir the pot. Go spew your nonsense elsewhere.

khalessi · 15-07-2020 01:55PM

markodaly wrote: »

While I am not here to defend the DoE you may be right, but it is convenient of course for teachers to lay the blame back onto the government, while their own leadership during this crisis has been, well at best, absent and at worse a complete dereliction of duty and care.

The Unions are no better and people are seeing that. The teachers should really elect some new capable blood into their ranks.

Well it only convenient to those, like yourself, who have an agenda against teachers and think that depsite every sector having some form of protection that teachers shouldnt.

Regarding leadership, the actual leaderhship is the DOE who were ****e!!

Meanwhile during the crisis in 24hours without any guidance from DOE, schools went from teaching in a classroom to online. For some it wasnt great and for other fantastic, but it was done. My school did really well, my kids school not so well but each mananaged to their abilities and internet access. I know my kids teachers were not very computer savvy, prior to Covid19.

So teachers did step up and tried to keep things going. The Dept contacted schools mine included asked what we were doing then issued a document 8 or so weeks later based on what we were already doing telling us how to do it, They have been about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

The unions sent in a document of suggestions to help with guidelines which was ignored. Their job is to ensure a safe environment for their workers, which is a legal entitlement.

People like you just like to teacher bash because you had a bad experience along the way. You have an agenda against teachers for whatever reason and nothing here will change that.

History Queen · 15-07-2020 01:55PM

markodaly wrote: »

While I am not here to defend the DoE you may be right, but it is convenient of course for teachers to lay the blame back onto the government, while their own leadership during this crisis has been, well at best, absent and at worse a complete dereliction of duty and care.

The Unions are no better and people are seeing that. The teachers should really elect some new capable blood into their ranks.

I don't think you understand the structure of the education system. Teachers/SNAs/school staff are the lowest rung on the ladder. They are not in a position to lead on this issue. All school policys must have a basis in a Department of Education led circular. Expecting teachers or other school staff to lead on these issues is akin to expecting the part time checkout operator in Dunnes to be leading their policy and procedures for customer and staff safety.

Teachers and unions have highlighted the issues on the ground/ explained the problems our individual schools face and submitted suggestions to the Dept. We have got almost nothing back. We have been proactive within our own remit, our remit however is very small.

I take offence to the suggestion that leadership from teachers at this time has been "at best absent ". That's very unfair.

timmy_mallet · 15-07-2020 01:56PM

the corpo wrote: »

I imagine the Departments proposal will be to obfuscate the evidence and push for the full reopening, and social distancing will be advised in a best case scenario. Where it can't, the edict will still be to open, the evidence isn't clear, need the kids back etc.

For me, the evidence points towards it not being safe to put children back into an environment where social distancing can't be facilitated, and I won't want to send my kids back if it can't be.

Do we think we'll see a scenario like the UK is proposing, where it will be illegal not to send your children back? I'm very uncomfortable that parents could be punished for wanting to follow the public health advice.

Then schools are done for. Parents working arrangements are done for. And we now live in a utterly different society. As I said earlier, parents and local communities should start thinking about educating their children themselves, without state support or involvement, the barriers in Ireland are clearly too great.

History Queen · 15-07-2020 01:58PM

markodaly wrote: »

So, you have it in one, the bit in bold. Yes they look after their own, so of course, they will be prepared to go on strike for a pay deal, but not for increased funding into the education system, apart from lip service.

This has been a strategic error on behalf of teachers, and their Unions for decades and now it has come home to roost in a big way. If teacher Unions actually cared and put their students first for once, then maybe people would be on their side.

So you think teachers should be unpaid because the DoE refuse to fund schools? We already buy supplies for our classes and now u want us on strike to save the Dept more money??? Doesn't sound like a very effective strategy to me.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 01:59PM

khalessi wrote: »

Well it only convenient to those, like yourself, who have an agenda against teachers and think that depsite every sector having some form of protection that teachers shouldnt.

Where did I say teachers should not have protection?
Don't invent fake arguments.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 02:00PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Then schools are done for. Parents working arrangements are done for. And we now live in a utterly different society. As I said earlier, parents and local communities should start thinking about educating their children themselves, without state support or involvement, the barriers in Ireland are clearly too great.

Best of luck with home schooling so. I assume you will be leaving this thread so have you'll have zero skin in this matter so.

khalessi · 15-07-2020 02:02PM

markodaly wrote: »

Where did I say teachers should not have protection?
Don't invent fake arguments.

if anyone reads what you have posted it is easy to see you have a grudge against teachers.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 15-07-2020 02:04PM

This thread has descended into absolute farce.

A few posters have derailed this thread looking to apportion blame on teachers.

Teachers will have very little say as to how schools will return in September. They will follow Dept instruction when it is issued.

Blaming teachers for this is akin to blaming bank clerks for the financial crisis of a decade ago.

Absolute nonsense.

end of the road · 15-07-2020 02:05PM

markodaly wrote: »

While I am not here to defend the DoE you may be right, but it is convenient of course for teachers to lay the blame back onto the government, while their own leadership during this crisis has been, well at best, absent and at worse a complete dereliction of duty and care.

The Unions are no better and people are seeing that. The teachers should really elect some new capable blood into their ranks.

the unions are perfectly fine and are doing the job they exist to do as best as they can.
if government want to reopen schools, then it is they who must come up with the plan as to how that will happen, in a manner that can insure an environment that is as safe as possible for all given all the balances that will be required.

markodaly wrote: »

So, you have it in one, the bit in bold. Yes they look after their own, so of course, they will be prepared to go on strike for a pay deal, but not for increased funding into the education system, apart from lip service.

This has been a strategic error on behalf of teachers, and their Unions for decades and now it has come home to roost in a big way. If teacher Unions actually cared and put their students first for once, then maybe people would be on their side.

they really, really wouldn't.
the union's job is to represent the members, nothing more. if they do engage in fighting for more funding for schools as a whole, then that is them simply doing it off their own back, they have no actual obligation to do it.
the anti-union/teacher/public service individuals will never side with the people they are against no matter what, but will certainly state that if the people they are against did what they find acceptable they would, even though they wouldn't in reality.

jrosen · 15-07-2020 02:07PM

History Queen wrote: »

Because schools are already underfunded as it is. We have no faith in the Department to fund them adequately. As you said yourself your own school is trying to make up the short fall.

Having no faith is one thing, but how can they come out and say no PPE needed, no social distancing needed and off you go when the world says otherwise.
Or do you think they will expect the schools to fund it from their own budgets?

timmy_mallet · 15-07-2020 02:07PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Best of luck with home schooling so. I assume you will be leaving this thread so have you'll have zero skin in this matter so.

I'll keep an eye out, thanks. Given the sentiment of those involved, the worry existing in many parents evident here, there is little will to solve it, but always hopeful.

History Queen · 15-07-2020 02:13PM

jrosen wrote: »

Having no faith is one thing, but how can they come out and say no PPE needed, no social distancing needed and off you go when the world says otherwise.
Or do you think they will expect the schools to fund it from their own budgets?

I'd imagine we'll get some sort of non instruction along the lines of "PPE can be worn if deemed necessary" but no clarity on who deems it necessary or where said PPE should come from. One thing the Dept do excel in is grey area instruction. I mean they don't explicitly say I have to buy whiteboard markers for my board every year, yet if I want to use it with my class I need to purchase them. (Small example but gives u an idea of what we face attitude wise from the Department)

s1ippy · 15-07-2020 02:17PM

Deeec · 15-07-2020 02:21PM

The longer the DOE stall on making guidelines on this the less likely schools will have time to implement the plans. Its looking less likely that children will be going back. I understand the issues of safety for both teachers and children. We really really really need a concrete home schooling plan to be put in place though. As a working parent we need to be able to put plans in place to facilitate this ( from childminding and employers point of view). I don't want to go back to the mess homeschooling was before the summer holidays ( as in my experience and a lot of parents experience a lot of schools did not deliver on this ). Suggestions I would have as a parent of primary school children would be as follows ( secondary school obviously would be different) :

1. Maths, English and Irish to be focused on only - forget about history, geography, religion etc for homeschooling purposes.
2. 2-3 hours work per day per child - prior to summer my 3rd class child was getting a full 5/6 hrs per day work with no teaching help which didnt work
3. 1 or 2 tutorials per week from the teacher - this could be prerecorded rather than live
4. New topics - either a prerecorded video teaching the topic or detailed notes supplied to the parents from teacher on how to teach the subject
5. Children who don't have technology or Wifi - work to be posted to these children from school
6. Teachers to be available for parents questions either by phone or email. ( reasonable queries only - no parents contacting teachers several times a week)
7. A few assignments per week to be returned to the teacher for correction
8. One phone call per week from teacher to each child.
9. Maybe each child ( individually) could meet their teacher in school once or twice a month for a progess assessment

Hopefully something like the above would be easy to operate for children, parents and teachers.

FishOnABike · 15-07-2020 02:23PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This is their interpretation of the stuff that has already been announced. Horrible attitude. Wouldn't like to be a member of staff in any of those schools.

This is nothing short of willful negligence.

Are the principal and BOM members making this decision willing to put up their homes (and holiday homes if they have one) as collateral should any staff member catch CoViD-19?

Or can the school get an insurance policy covering the risk? Not likely because it would be considered uninsurable as too high a risk.

When you cannot sit on a bus for five minutes without a facemask and social distancing, businesses use ppe, limit their number of customers and mark out floor areas for social distancing it is ludicrous that a group of unqualified people would or could direct that people cannot take the same precautions that are deemed reasonable, mandatory even, elsewhere.

The HSA would not accept a construction site supervisor saying we think all this safe pass, high-vis, steel toecap, hard hat stuff is a bit soft and too much trouble to do.

Similarly it should not be acceptable for a principal, BOM or DES to say that the same health and safety measures that apply elsewhere do not apply in schools because it is too much trouble. They have a duty of care to their staff and pupils to provide a safe environment and procedures.

timmy_mallet · 15-07-2020 02:26PM

s1ippy wrote: »

Same argument for every other building space. Pointless.

History Queen · 15-07-2020 02:33PM

Deeec wrote: »

The longer the DOE stall on making guidelines on this the less likely schools will have time to implement the plans. Its looking less likely that children will be going back. I understand the issues of safety for both teachers and children. We really really really need a concrete home schooling plan to be put in place though. As a working parent we need to be able to put plans in place to facilitate this ( from childminding and employers point of view). I don't want to go back to the mess homeschooling was before the summer holidays ( as in my experience and a lot of parents experience a lot of schools did not deliver on this ). Suggestions I would have as a parent of primary school children would be as follows ( secondary school obviously would be different) :

1. Maths, English and Irish to be focused on only - forget about history, geography, religion etc for homeschooling purposes.
2. 2-3 hours work per day per child - prior to summer my 3rd class child was getting a full 5/6 hrs per day work with no teaching help which didnt work
3. 1 or 2 tutorials per week from the teacher - this could be prerecorded rather than live
4. New topics - either a prerecorded video teaching the topic or detailed notes supplied to the parents from teacher on how to teach the subject
5. Children who don't have technology or Wifi - work to be posted to these children from school
6. Teachers to be available for parents questions either by phone or email. ( reasonable queries only - no parents contacting teachers several times a week)
7. A few assignments per week to be returned to the teacher for correction
8. One phone call per week from teacher to each child.
9. Maybe each child ( individually) could meet their teacher in school once or twice a month for a progess assessment

Hopefully something like the above would be easy to operate for children, parents and teachers.

I think some of your suggestions above are very reasonable and some won't work. I had over 200 students last year (second level) a weekly phone call just wouldn't be practical. Though I suspect you had primary level in mind when you suggested that, I don't work in that sector so I won't comment on whether it would work at that level.

But I agree fully with the premise that some sort of structure around distance/blended learning should be worked out firstly, in case we need it and secondly so that in that event, like you say, students and parents are having a more equitable experience of education. The Dept should not only be putting Plan A in place, but also contingencies in case of clusters/closures.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 02:38PM

History Queen wrote: »

But I agree fully with the premise that some sort of structure around distance/blended learning should be worked out firstly, in case we need it and secondly so that in that event, like you say, students and parents are having a more equitable experience of education. The Dept should not only be putting Plan A in place, but also contingencies in case of clusters/closures.

And yet we still wait. Not a peep from them. Structure needs to be put in place for various different scenarios. Then it can be amended and adapted to suit the individual schools bit at least there is a common approach from all schools.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 02:40PM

Deeec wrote: »

The longer the DOE stall on making guidelines on this the less likely schools will have time to implement the plans. Its looking less likely that children will be going back. I understand the issues of safety for both teachers and children. We really really really need a concrete home schooling plan to be put in place though. As a working parent we need to be able to put plans in place to facilitate this ( from childminding and employers point of view). I don't want to go back to the mess homeschooling was before the summer holidays ( as in my experience and a lot of parents experience a lot of schools did not deliver on this ). Suggestions I would have as a parent of primary school children would be as follows ( secondary school obviously would be different) :

1. Maths, English and Irish to be focused on only - forget about history, geography, religion etc for homeschooling purposes.
2. 2-3 hours work per day per child - prior to summer my 3rd class child was getting a full 5/6 hrs per day work with no teaching help which didnt work
3. 1 or 2 tutorials per week from the teacher - this could be prerecorded rather than live
4. New topics - either a prerecorded video teaching the topic or detailed notes supplied to the parents from teacher on how to teach the subject
5. Children who don't have technology or Wifi - work to be posted to these children from school
6. Teachers to be available for parents questions either by phone or email. ( reasonable queries only - no parents contacting teachers several times a week)
7. A few assignments per week to be returned to the teacher for correction
8. One phone call per week from teacher to each child.
9. Maybe each child ( individually) could meet their teacher in school once or twice a month for a progess assessment

Hopefully something like the above would be easy to operate for children, parents and teachers.

Like some of those ideas but it requires dept guidelines to give them some weight.

Deeec · 15-07-2020 02:47PM

History Queen wrote: »

I think some of your suggestions above are very reasonable and some won't work. I had over 200 students last year (second level) a weekly phone call just wouldn't be practical. Though I suspect you had primary level in mind when you suggested that, I don't work in that sector so I won't comment on whether it would work at that level.

But I agree fully with the premise that some sort of structure around distance/blended learning should be worked out firstly, in case we need it and secondly so that in that event, like you say, students and parents are having a more equitable experience of education. The Dept should not only be putting Plan A in place, but also contingencies in case of clusters/closures.

Absolutely I agree this plan would not work for secondary schools. I think as regards homeschooling keep it as simple as possible. I think many schools took an overcomplicated view on this before the summer and this is why it didn't work - trying to cover every subject, live online classes etc, using platforms which didn't work etc. This just made it harder on teachers, children and paretns. Other schools done very little which fell way short of expectations. It could work really well if simplified.

jrosen · 15-07-2020 03:03PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Then schools are done for. Parents working arrangements are done for. And we now live in a utterly different society. As I said earlier, parents and local communities should start thinking about educating their children themselves, without state support or involvement, the barriers in Ireland are clearly too great.

How would parents and communities go about this?

arctictree · 15-07-2020 03:10PM

jrosen wrote: »

How would parents and communities go about this?

How about creches started expanding and start teaching junior/senior infants?

markodaly · 15-07-2020 03:12PM

end of the road wrote: »

the unions are perfectly fine and are doing the job they exist to do as best as they can.
if government want to reopen schools, then it is they who must come up with the plan as to how that will happen, in a manner that can insure an environment that is as safe as possible for all given all the balances that will be required.

Can the government also re-write work practices and rules on whim?
Like hell they can. Unions are a key stakeholder in the Irish education system, you cannot have it both way, that the Unions 'see nothing and do nothing' when it comes to education policy, that of course has to go through them most of the time.

the union's job is to represent the members, nothing more

Well, at least you are honest about it.
The faux outrage so, of teachers asking for more funding for schools should be taken with a vat of salt.

Didnt the Unions take a pay claim to the ECJ a few years back and lost?
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-teachers-take-unequal-pay-case-to-ecj-1.3450487

Perhaps they should have been a bit more productive lobbying for more capital funding for schools instead?

iamwhoiam · 15-07-2020 03:15PM

I was just chatting to a neighbour who works in a community playschool . They are all having meeting to have plans in place for September . They are planning for a best case scenario and planning for a not so great scenario . They have their plans mapped out and all being informed and all asked for their input .
People are planning and getting ready and yet our school teachers seems to be the last to know and the last to be asked or informed about plans
It really is an absolute scandal at this stage that the DoE seems to be still dragging their heels and hoping it will all go away .

Should teachers and unions be screaming from the rooftops now to let the public now what a farce this is ?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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