How will schools be able to go back in September?

timmy_mallet · 15-07-2020 12:04PM

A question here... If the DoE's guidance was, we want all children in school, we cannot maintain social distancing inside the classroom... Would the unions and their teachers accept this?

jlm29 · 15-07-2020 12:05PM

rob316 wrote: »

They had some smug **** from a teachers union on primetime there last week, I wanted to smack him through the TV. He says our members work environment should be "covid safe". Its an essential service, why do you deserve to be covid safe when nurses are working in a dangerous environment, retail workers, emergency services etc etc.

Nurses are protected by lots of PPE, policies, and plenty training around covid. I haven’t been in one single shop in the last three months where there wasn’t measures in place to protect staff from covid- Perspex screens, hand sanitiser etc etc. All workers should have similar, otherwise we’ll have clusters and schools closing down again all over the place. That’s what teachers are looking for, not some guarantee that they’ll never catch covid.

jrosen · 15-07-2020 12:23PM

What does covid safe mean? Its easy to say it but what does covid safe actually entail? If its PPE then thats easily resolved, if its hand washing/hand sanitizing availability then its also easily resolved.

When phrases like this are used no one really knows where they stand. What if the dept say no social distancing but will give PPE, will the teachers/unions agree or not. We could well get to the end of july, have proposals and guidance issued and then the teachers unions say no and we are all back to square one again.

We have masks and hand sanitizer in work plus access to soap and water. We have the option of a visor over a mask or to wear both.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 12:25PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

A question here... If the DoE's guidance was, we want all children in school, we cannot maintain social distancing inside the classroom... Would the unions and their teachers accept this?

Then they'll have to come up with a plan. Can't just dump everyone back in a 'normal' way. I've said this before but I highly doubt that the department.will put anything meaningful down on paper as that would then require them to provis additional funding.

jrosen · 15-07-2020 12:26PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Then they'll have to come up with a plan. Can't just dump everyone back in a 'normal' way. I've said this before but I highly doubt that the department.will put anything meaningful down on paper as that would then require them to provis additional funding.

what if the plan was everyone back, staff to wear PPE?

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 12:27PM

jrosen wrote: »

What does covid safe mean? Its easy to say it but what does covid safe actually entail? If its PPE then thats easily resolved, if its hand washing/hand sanitizing availability then its also easily resolved.

When phrases like this are used no one really knows where they stand. What if the dept say no social distancing but will give PPE, will the teachers/unions agree or not. We could well get to the end of july, have proposals and guidance issued and then the teachers unions say no and we are all back to square one again.

We have masks and hand sanitizer in work plus access to soap and water. We have the option of a visor over a mask or to wear both.

If they were to say PPE then they need to fund it but I'd be highly surprised if they commit to it.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 12:28PM

khalessi wrote: »

Teachers have been crying out about infrastructure for years, there are marches on the Dail. Indeed my own school marched due to the fact we had over 50% prefabs, but that is not what the media report and anyhow not what you want to hear since you only have one agenda, going by this and your previous posts.

Did they go on strike over the lack of funding?

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 12:28PM

Personally I want them to outline what happens under a few different scenarios. Provide what funding would be available for each scenario and then schools can start putting together their plans. It's the uncertainty that is wrecking principals heads.

jrosen · 15-07-2020 12:32PM

Why would PPE not be funded? Haven't the state funded PPE for other public offices and locations? Why would providing PPE for teachers be any different?

Our secondary school is already looking for money for September and its gone up by 20euro.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 12:37PM

jrosen wrote: »

Why would PPE not be funded? Haven't the state funded PPE for other public offices and locations? Why would providing PPE for teachers be any different?

Our secondary school is already looking for money for September and its gone up by 20euro.

As I already said numerous times, if there is a corner to be cut, the dept of education will go at it with a chainsaw. Providing PPE will cost them too much.

As an aside, if they don't provide PPE then they need to provide clarity on whether PPE is allowed to be worn by staff. I now know of 4 schools where staff have already been told by management that PPE will not be allowed. If they have a medical need the staff have been told to go out on sick leave.

BonsaiKitten · 15-07-2020 12:42PM

The Dept have already said that they don't envisage they will advise PPE haven't they? Something about it was in the draft guidelines.

I can see a scenario where we reopen for a while and then have to close like Israel etc, though I hope it doesn't happen. I'm concerned that the Dept are sticking their heads in the sand re: that possibility. At the very least they should be drafting a backup online learning curriculum/ reducing our very overloaded curriculum for next year. If they put a bit of time into something like the English Oak Academy it could be really useful.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 12:42PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

As I already said numerous times, if there is a corner to be cut, the dept of education will go at it with a chainsaw. Providing PPE will cost them too much.

As an aside, if they don't provide PPE then they need to provide clarity on whether PPE is allowed to be worn by staff. I now know of 4 schools where staff have already been told by management that PPE will not be allowed. If they have a medical need the staff have been told to go out on sick leave.

Is this the Board of Management dictating this to teachers?

PowerToWait · 15-07-2020 12:42PM

I don't get the constant comparison of teachers to healthcare workers. The roles, training, obligations, expectations, are not even remotely similar.

If people, who remember being in school, don't see schools as super efficient virus distribution centres, they need to wake up.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 12:46PM

markodaly wrote: »

Is this the Board of Management dictating this to teachers?

BoM/Principal.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 12:47PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

BoM/Principal.

And whose 'guidance' are they working from? Are they just making it up on the go?

Its a genuine question.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 12:49PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

The Dept have already said that they don't envisage they will advise PPE haven't they? Something about it was in the draft guidelines.

I can see a scenario where we reopen for a while and then have to close like Israel etc, though I hope it doesn't happen. I'm concerned that the Dept are sticking their heads in the sand re: that possibility. At the very least they should be drafting a backup online learning curriculum/ reducing our very overloaded curriculum for next year. If they put a bit of time into something like the English Oak Academy it could be really useful.

Neighbour of mine, her sister teaches in the north. She was telling me yesterday that they have been told to plan for half in, half out. Two days intensive teaching per group per week. Days that a group aren't in they are to do work on the previously taught material. Curriculum is being slashed. Can't find this announced anywhere so maybe this is a school going on a solo run.

wirelessdude01 · 15-07-2020 12:50PM

markodaly wrote: »

And whose 'guidance' are they working from? Are they just making it up on the go?

Its a genuine question.

This is their interpretation of the stuff that has already been announced. Horrible attitude. Wouldn't like to be a member of staff in any of those schools.

jrosen · 15-07-2020 12:55PM

I dont see how the dept can advise against the use of PPE when every single place of employment is using some form of protective equipment. There is no logic to that and its setting the return of the school year up to fail.

Ive been lobbying my local reps on this. Just pushing for questions to be asked around social welfare entitlement for parents who have to stop working, additional leave for parents who will possibly have to take time off if their child isn't allowed to school, clarity for people who's employer doesnt pay sick pay etc. Not getting much back but will continue.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 01:13PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This is their interpretation of the stuff that has already been announced. Horrible attitude. Wouldn't like to be a member of staff in any of those schools.

So, they are making it up on the go...

As I said before, this pandemic has laid bare the fact that there are no or little capable leadership in our education system.

end of the road · 15-07-2020 01:17PM

rob316 wrote: »

They had some smug **** from a teachers union on primetime there last week, I wanted to smack him through the TV.

so there was someone on from a representative body for teachers who was concerned about his members quite rightly, and you wanted to smack him?
says more about you then it does him, tbh.

rob316 wrote: »

He says our members work environment should be "covid safe". Its an essential service, why do you deserve to be covid safe when nurses are working in a dangerous environment, retail workers, emergency services etc etc.

why don't they deserve to be as safe as possible?
emergency services having to work in bad conditions, which is unfortunately the nature of their job to an extent is not a reason for others to have to work in similar or the same conditions if it can be avoided.
retail workers and other workers will have some protection due to the restrictions imposed as part of allowing their work places to reopen, so if schools don't have the same or similar, then they should if they are going to reopen.

rob316 wrote: »

The power we give to these unions is ridiculous.

what power, they have very very little real power and haven't had so for a very long time.

rob316 wrote: »

Can we expect extra school days next year for our kids they have lost? Can we ****, it'll be pay increases this lot will be looking for its members.

and quite right.
the school time is the school time, the term time is the term time, it's not their job to do extra days without something in return for it.
if the government want them to do extra days, as in take on extra work, they must compensate them in return.

khalessi · 15-07-2020 01:19PM

markodaly wrote: »

So, they are making it up on the go...

As I said before, this pandemic has laid bare the fact that there are no or little capable leadership in our education system.

The leadership is supposed to come from the Dept of Educaiton so in that respect you are correct. This leaves BOM to come up with guidelines and all that has to be done is to point out legal right to safe working environment and they will cave.
We have been told we can wear PPE if we choose.

timmy_mallet · 15-07-2020 01:28PM

Drumpot wrote: »

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

I think the bottom line is that we just don’t know but it’s really concerning that there is no obvious efforts being made to find out the risks in schools:

The experiment will continue. Yet scientists lament that as before, it may not generate the details they crave about infection patterns and paths of transmission. “There just isn’t really a culture of research” in schools, Edwards says. Gathering data from schoolchildren comes with layers of complexity beyond those of traditional pediatric research. In addition to seeking consent from parents and children, it often requires buy-in from teachers and school administrators who are already overwhelmed by their new reality. Integrating research—the only sure way to gauge the success of their varied strategies—may be too much to ask.

If there was political will to actually find out if schools are ok it would of been done by now by somebody. Again, feels like they are taking “if we don’t know for sure, we can’t say for certain that schools are risky” kind of approach.

I would rather there be transparency and honesty around these things for children, parents and teachers. It’s immoral to allow such ambiguous based information “schools grand cause children don’t really spread” to continue. The message should be “we actually aren’t sure”, because that’s the unfiltered truth.

I can’t imagine another 12 months of no schools. Unless there’s a radical solution , I can’t see how schools Won’t Open in some form. But I’d rather be told the truth. Children are far less likely to get a bad dose. Children will benefit educational and emotionally more by being in school. This may be the best, most honest message our government can give and it might have to be good enough. I just hope they don’t lie to peddle a “schools are fine” narrative that will probably blow up in their faces and destroy their credibility and do savage damage to public’s trust in authorities.

Yes. You've exposed the problem with Irish public life. Everyone backs themselves into a corner defending their own interests and ends up 'waiting on' someone else to solve it.

timmy_mallet · 15-07-2020 01:31PM

khalessi wrote: »

The leadership is supposed to come from the Dept of Educaiton so in that respect you are correct. This leaves BOM to come up with guidelines and all that has to be done is to point out legal right to safe working environment and they will cave.
We have been told we can wear PPE if we choose.

What exactly are schools 'waiting on' from the DOE? Is their a published list of what they're looking for?

Treppen · 15-07-2020 01:33PM

markodaly wrote: »

This is a non sequitur. Putting money into cycle lanes in of itself has nothing to do with funding for schools.
But I do find this a tad ironic though. When is the last time teacher unions put funding for infrastructure ahead of their own pay claims? This is a genuine question.

The teachers never went on strike for the lack of funding into schools. Its a bit rich to be crying about it now.

I find it ironic you replace one non sequitur with another.

A Union looks after its members terms and conditions, nothing unusual or immoral about that BUT it also does advocate on behalf of students in terms of class sizes and funding etc. The unions are including children's welfare in their talks with the government too btw.

Maybe you should refer the matter onto ISSU and encourage them to abstain from school.

the corpo · 15-07-2020 01:33PM

I imagine the Departments proposal will be to obfuscate the evidence and push for the full reopening, and social distancing will be advised in a best case scenario. Where it can't, the edict will still be to open, the evidence isn't clear, need the kids back etc.

For me, the evidence points towards it not being safe to put children back into an environment where social distancing can't be facilitated, and I won't want to send my kids back if it can't be.

Do we think we'll see a scenario like the UK is proposing, where it will be illegal not to send your children back? I'm very uncomfortable that parents could be punished for wanting to follow the public health advice.

Treppen · 15-07-2020 01:34PM

markodaly wrote: »

Is this the Board of Management dictating this to teachers?

He just told you they did.

Treppen · 15-07-2020 01:38PM

markodaly wrote: »

So, they are making it up on the go...

As I said before, this pandemic has laid bare the fact that there are no or little capable leadership in our education system.

But at the same time you and your Ilk are giving out about about the lack of solutions from teachers and unions. Never asks what the ultimate leaders in education are going to do!

Still flying the FG flag I see.

History Queen · 15-07-2020 01:42PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

A question here... If the DoE's guidance was, we want all children in school, we cannot maintain social distancing inside the classroom... Would the unions and their teachers accept this?

With no other measures in place? No.

With other measures such as PPE, hand washing facilities, procedures for dealing with symptomatic staff and students, provision made for vulnerable staff and students etc.
Personally I'd accept that.

deiseindublin · 15-07-2020 01:43PM

@Treppen - I've given up engaging with some posters. They're not here to discuss the school's opening. They have a massive chip on their shoulder and tunnel vision, along with an ability to ignore logic, so I don't see the point in engaging tbh. I'd be better off banging my head off a brick wall.

Drumpot · 15-07-2020 01:44PM

the corpo wrote: »

I imagine the Departments proposal will be to obfuscate the evidence and push for the full reopening, and social distancing will be advised in a best case scenario. Where it can't, the edict will still be to open, the evidence isn't clear, need the kids back etc.

For me, the evidence points towards it not being safe to put children back into an environment where social distancing can't be facilitated, and I won't want to send my kids back if it can't be.

Do we think we'll see a scenario like the UK is proposing, where it will be illegal not to send your children back? I'm very uncomfortable that parents could be punished for wanting to follow the public health advice.

My instinct , which I think Is possibly an inherently Irish trait, would be to keep my children off if it’s made mandatory with penalties during the COVID crisis. Particularity if They lie about schools being safe with no reasonable proof/evidence that backs up what they say.

I think my Children would benefit a lot being in school. I also think sending them back in any form will be somewhat risky. But once the authorities are honest about these risks and there have been good proven evidence based Measures taken to try and reduce the risk, I would hope to be able to confidently let my children attend. There is no zero risk alternative, I accept that.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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