How will schools be able to go back in September?

froog · 13-07-2020 12:31PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't be comfortable with my kids using a santiser provided by someone else, would you?

I will be providing them with their own.

And if there are mandatory hand sanitising stations in schools from September, I'd argue they are a greater risk to safety than if they didn't exist. Each child in the school touching something with their hands on arrival is absurd.

What do people do after they touch the sanitiser? Think about it now for a second.

timmy_mallet · 13-07-2020 12:32PM

murphyebass wrote: »

Even if it is a trigger they touch to get the sanitizer out..... they then sanatIze their hands so what’s the problem.

It’s like the automatic soap dispenser for the home that were launched a year or two ago. No need to touch a trigger. Yay, oh wait I’m getting soap out to WASH MY HANDS!

The problem is alcohol based sanitisers are not very effective even when used properly, vastly inferior to soap and water. And encouraging people to touch the same surface is likely to increase risk rather than reduce it.

timmy_mallet · 13-07-2020 12:34PM

froog wrote: »

What do people do after they touch the sanitiser? Think about it now for a second.

Oh baby. Shocking level of understanding.

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 12:35PM

froog wrote: »

What do people do after they touch the sanitiser? Think about it now for a second.

Sanitisers are not very effective. Better than nothing but not the most effective. The washing your hands for 20 seconds comes about because the virus cells have a lipid layer that is only broken down properly by soap and warm water. So it's more of a physical reaction than chemical actually.

Treppen · 13-07-2020 12:43PM

It's laughable, there's alot of schools don't have sanitizer or soap or warm water to wash their hands with.... Never mind the Mankey towel or empty paper towel dispenser to dry their hands.
It says a lot when toilet paper is rationed.

froog · 13-07-2020 01:01PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sanitisers are not very effective. Better than nothing but not the most effective. The washing your hands for 20 seconds comes about because the virus cells have a lipid layer that is only broken down properly by soap and warm water. So it's more of a physical reaction than chemical actually.

Yeah alcohol at a certain concentration does that too by the way.

chocolock · 13-07-2020 01:23PM

In this situation, it's the best way to make sure all kids' hands are treated before they go into the school building though.
They can still wash their hands when they go in, but you can't trust all kids to do that.

My son isn't allergic to hand sanitizer, but hates the smell of the particular one used in his camp. So I bring my own and I put it on his hands in front of the teacher. We signed an agreement that his temp would be checked and that we understood he wouldn't be let in if it wasn't normal.

Hopefully these refusal examples will bring about a clear policy for September.

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 01:40PM

froog wrote: »

Yeah alcohol at a certain concentration does that too by the way.

At a certain concentration, when used correctly.

munchkin_utd · 13-07-2020 01:54PM

jrosen wrote: »

<snip>
My dentist and my kids dentists are not taking temps for this reason, my hair dresser said the same and my doctors office is not taking temps either although Im not sure why. My kids have been back to camp for 2 weeks and no temp checks either.

temperature checks just show you have a fever, which ffs you would know anyhow as you'd be feeling well dodgy.
The people who are causing the havoc are people with no symptoms, and that includes no temperature.

Anyhow, we are abroad and my kids are back in school (week on, week off) for the past 6 weeks and this is now their last week before the summer holidays.
Each class is split in 2 groups which alternate. I am fairly sure they aren't bothering with hand sanitiser, because washing hands with soap and water is incredibly effective against viruses (which we all know have a fatty outer skin which soap breaks up, rendering the virus "dead") and they wash their hands every time they come back into the classroom.

In in the morning each class arrives staggered by 15 minutes, that leads to lunch break(s) staggered by 15 minutes, each half class only eats and plays within their own class, and even the play is socially distanced. So they are close-ish to those in their class/ group of 10 to 15, but barely see anyone outside of that. Should any case be detected, then only that (half) class would need to go into isolation, not the entire school, town, region or country. It's pretty basic sensible stuff .

Each school chooses what works best for them regarding patterns of attendance, i.e. other schools are in every other day rather than a week on, week off. Come september it looks likely that they'll all be in with full classes, with permission for vulnerable kids to stay at home (as is the case now anyhow) and I have no idea what the arrangements will be with that.

All in all it works really well. At this stage all schools at all levels across the country have been back before the summer holidays to some sort of school attendance. The thinking was that it was safe with the measures PLUS should they have judged that wrong, then the summer holidays would be round the corner and they could reset the plans in safety and come back in Autumn either with better hygene plans, or proper distance learning.

I looked up the figures and theres 32,500+ schools, just under 11 million schoolkids, and not one reported cluster tracked back to a school (yet). Autumn will be probably see an odd case here or there, but should classes remain separate and traceable then VERY localised action on a class level can be taken, letting the rest of the school carry on.

History Queen · 13-07-2020 01:59PM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

temperature checks just show you have a fever, which ffs you would know anyhow as you'd be feeling well dodgy.
The people who are causing the havoc are people with no symptoms, and that includes no temperature.

Anyhow, we are abroad and my kids are back in school (week on, week off) for the past 6 weeks and this is now their last week before the summer holidays.
Each class is split in 2 groups which alternate. I am fairly sure they aren't bothering with hand sanitiser, because washing hands with soap and water is incredibly effective against viruses (which we all know have a fatty outer skin which soap breaks up, rendering the virus "dead") and they wash their hands every time they come back into the classroom.

In in the morning each class arrives staggered by 15 minutes, that leads to lunch break(s) staggered by 15 minutes, each half class only eats and plays within their own class, and even the play is socially distanced. So they are close-ish to those in their class/ group of 10 to 15, but barely see anyone outside of that. Should any case be detected, then only that (half) class would need to go into isolation, not the entire school, town, region or country. It's pretty basic sensible stuff .

Each school chooses what works best for them regarding patterns of attendance, i.e. other schools are in every other day rather than a week on, week off. Come september it looks likely that they'll all be in with full classes, with permission for vulnerable kids to stay at home (as is the case now anyhow) and I have no idea what the arrangements will be with that.

All in all it works really well. At this stage all schools at all levels across the country have been back before the summer holidays to some sort of school attendance. The thinking was that it was safe with the measures PLUS should they have judged that wrong, then the summer holidays would be round the corner and they could reset the plans in safety and come back in Autumn either with better hygene plans, or proper distance learning.

I looked up the figures and theres 32,500+ schools, just under 11 million schoolkids, and not one reported cluster tracked back to a school (yet). Autumn will be probably see an odd case here or there, but should classes remain separate and traceable then VERY localised action on a class level can be taken, letting the rest of the school carry on.

Out of curiosity, what country are you in? It doesn't sound like we are looking at following a similiar pattern to ye, in that they seem determined to have all students back full-time (which will be the least disruptive option if they can pull it off). I really feel handwashing facilities would go a long way towards helping us to keep schools open but with only 7 or 8 weeks to schools reopening I haven't heard any concrete plans to enable this.

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 02:11PM

History Queen wrote: »

(which will be the least disruptive option if they can pull it off)

I don't know why people are so focused on this though. Covid-19 is disruptive. What should be aimed for, is the best possible scenario- that might mean difficult decisions, higher costs and an enormous amount of complicated planning but that's what is necessary and this all or nothing approach needs to be thrown out the window.

If the department aren't able to get 100% of schools 100% ready on time then they need to make sure that teachers and students affected have the resources that they need to access online materials in the mean time. If teachers feel that they/ their family members are at risk so they can't come to work (even with full PPE and procedures in place) they need to either commit to backing up their colleagues in some other productive way or take a reduced payment. If parents are struggling with work/ childcare they need to lobby their management to accept that there will be gaps in their working day and they need patience and support to temporarily facilitate this (notwithstanding frontline workers who should be prioritised re childcare/ school places)

JDD · 13-07-2020 02:26PM

If parents are struggling with work/ childcare they need to lobby their management to accept that there will be gaps in their working day and they need patience and support to temporarily facilitate this

What happens if parents put the children into after-school facilities full time for the day off/week off scenario? Is this going to be allowed? Because unless the government say that the children must be minded at home on the day off/week off, I can see a lot of people using their afterschool facility in the same way that they use it during the summer holidays.

And surely having kids mix with a different group of children on the day off/week off increases the chances of the virus being caught and spread (including to their teacher).

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 02:29PM

JDD wrote: »

What happens if parents put the children into after-school facilities full time for the day off/week off scenario? Is this going to be allowed? Because unless the government say that the children must be minded at home on the day off/week off, I can see a lot of people using their afterschool facility in the same way that they use it during the summer holidays.

And surely having kids mix with a different group of children on the day off/week off increases the chances of the virus being caught and spread (including to their teacher).

Read what you've quoted. I'm saying parents need to be supported by their employers, nothing to do with the school/childcare facility.

jrosen · 13-07-2020 02:38PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I don't know why people are so focused on this though. Covid-19 is disruptive. What should be aimed for, is the best possible scenario- that might mean difficult decisions, higher costs and an enormous amount of complicated planning but that's what is necessary and this all or nothing approach needs to be thrown out the window.

If the department aren't able to get 100% of schools 100% ready on time then they need to make sure that teachers and students affected have the resources that they need to access online materials in the mean time. If teachers feel that they/ their family members are at risk so they can't come to work (even with full PPE and procedures in place) they need to either commit to backing up their colleagues in some other productive way or take a reduced payment. If parents are struggling with work/ childcare they need to lobby their management to accept that there will be gaps in their working day and they need patience and support to temporarily facilitate this (notwithstanding frontline workers who should be prioritised re childcare/ school places)

Parents have been supported though, for months now. How long do you think an employer should have to be flexible? For many they have allowed reduced working days/weeks. Reduced work loads for some because they have kids at home and could not manage. I have friends who are starting their work day early in the morning and not finishing until late at night. They are exhausted and its not sustainable. All aspects of their life is suffering. What about people who are physically required on site to work? There is no flexibility there, you either show up to work or you dont get paid.

Mortgage breaks will finish soon, eviction ban for tenants no longer. People will have to work.

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 02:48PM

jrosen wrote: »

Parents have been supported though, for months now. How long do you think an employer should have to be flexible? For many they have allowed reduced working days/weeks. Reduced work loads for some because they have kids at home and could not manage. I have friends who are starting their work day early in the morning and not finishing until late at night. They are exhausted and its not sustainable. All aspects of their life is suffering. What about people who are physically required on site to work? There is no flexibility there, you either show up to work or you dont get paid.

Mortgage breaks will finish soon, eviction ban for tenants no longer. People will have to work.

Agreed, certainly. But there's a hell of a lot of work to do before some Irish schools are even up to standard facility wise. Years of neglect- I don't know if the funding has been sufficient or not but obviously management hasn't been good.

Prioritise services for frontline workers. PUP for people who are required to work onsite but can't. I'm not saying that employers should have to wait indefinitely or that employees should be going through this stress, anything but. But it shouldn't be a rush back full steam ahead just because it's "less disruptive" without sufficiently mitigating the risk first. Handwashing facilities, necessary sq metres etc etc. Otherwise they'll end up closing them again. I don't see actions happening as of yet though.

jrosen · 13-07-2020 02:54PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Agreed, certainly. But there's a hell of a lot of work to do before some Irish schools are even up to standard facility wise. Years of neglect- I don't know if the funding has been sufficient or not but obviously management hasn't been good.

Prioritise services for frontline workers. PUP for people who are required to work onsite but can't. I'm not saying that employers should have to wait indefinitely or that employees should be going through this stress, anything but. But it shouldn't be a rush back full steam ahead just because it's "less disruptive" without sufficiently mitigating the risk first. Handwashing facilities, necessary sq metres etc etc. Otherwise they'll end up closing them again. I don't see actions happening as of yet though.

Yes some of the schools seem to have been left behind with zero investment.

I just worry for employees that patience is wearing thin with their employers and they will be expected to be churning out the usual work load. Which from speaking to other parents is causing huge distress.

Your right it shouldn't be a rush back, schools should only open if they are ready do to so.

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 02:57PM

jrosen wrote: »

Yes some of the schools seem to have been left behind with zero investment.

I just worry for employees that patience is wearing thin with their employers and they will be expected to be churning out the usual work load. Which from speaking to other parents is causing huge distress.

Your right it shouldn't be a rush back, schools should only open if they are ready do to so.

I know how it feels! But there was no rush back in March, that's when risk assessments should have started. They've had months for this.

JDD · 13-07-2020 03:13PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Read what you've quoted. I'm saying parents need to be supported by their employers, nothing to do with the school/childcare facility.

I work for the public service, and they have been very understanding so far. And my husband and I have been very lucky in that a) there are two of us parenting and b) we have jobs that allow us to WFH full time. So we have been shift working - minding the kids 8am to 2pm or 2pm to 7pm. So I am currently working at around 50% of my capacity, pre-pandemic, but getting paid a full time wage. It has been very decent of them.

If schools go back week on/week off, and we do not use their after-school facility, we will still need to shift work on the week off, and take turns parenting in the afternoons during the week on. I see it already that our workload is going back as if I am working my usual 8/9 hour day, while on the surface there are emails saying "we understand your issues and we are willing to be flexible, just stay in contact you local management regarding workload".

It will be very difficult to look for continued forbearance, asking to only work at 60% capacity, when there are childcare facilities open, but I am choosing not to use them. What will happen in reality is that I will be expected to work as if
I am working full time, but they will give flexibility as to when I have to be online. I would be reluctant to ask for any more forbearance than that - especially if other mothers in my workplace are working full time. That means working 9pm-1am to catch up. And that is not sustainable. That is why I will be availing of the afterschool when it opens in September. I am in two minds about whether I will use it if the kids don't go back to school full time - firstly, I'm not sure if they will offer to open full time on those days, secondly, I'm not sure I can afford the additional fees, and thirdly I'm not sure I want them to mix any more than necessary with a different group of kids.

But honestly, if they do open full time, I probably won't have a choice but to send them, unless I am completely going to crack mentally from trying to parent full time and work full time. And that's a pity, because I understand teachers worry about clusters happening in schools, and worrying about themselves and vulnerable family members, but the reality is, unfortunately, the reality.

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 03:19PM

JDD wrote: »

I work for the public service, and they have been very understanding so far. And my husband and I have been very lucky in that a) there are two of us parenting and b) we have jobs that allow us to WFH full time. So we have been shift working - minding the kids 8am to 2pm or 2pm to 7pm. So I am currently working at around 50% of my capacity, pre-pandemic, but getting paid a full time wage. It has been very decent of them.

If schools go back week on/week off, and we do not use their after-school facility, we will still need to shift work on the week off, and take turns parenting in the afternoons during the week on. I see it already that our workload is going back as if I am working my usual 8/9 hour day, while on the surface there are emails saying "we understand your issues and we are willing to be flexible, just stay in contact you local management regarding workload".

I'm in total agreement with you, and in the same boat. There needs to be pressure on whoever is creating the bottleneck on getting the schools open, and it's certainly not me. If it's not as safe an environment as it can be because people can't wash their hands or there aren't enough staff members per child then they can't open. Money and effort needs to be put into it and until it is, the whole country suffers.

Sorry, to edit, I bolded this because this is a cop out. Your manager should be discussing with you regularly what the expectations and difficulties are if they are truly supportive.

iamwhoiam · 13-07-2020 03:23PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I know how it feels! But there was no rush back in March, that's when risk assessments should have started. They've had months for this.

It is absolutely disgraceful that the DoE didn’t set up a task force in March and get the ball rolling by April . They could have been prepared for different scenarios , different levels of infection , for different schools etc etc . Its now July and still they didder and nothing is being done

jrosen · 13-07-2020 03:34PM

There absolutely should have been group/task force set up.

We have had the benefit of being behind other countries.

We are no longer considered to be in the midst of a pandemic, business owners will start to revert back to normal business. If this remains the same and we are only dealing with pop up clusters across the country there will be even less pressure on businesses to be flexible. They will want to get the most out of their workforce in times they can operate.

I can see it now in work myself, we are all being asked to work more hours, extra days, Stay later.

is_that_so · 13-07-2020 04:10PM

Posted this on main thread. Study of schoolkid COVID infections in Germany.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/13/german-study-covid-19-infection-rate-schools-saxony

munchkin_utd · 13-07-2020 04:14PM

History Queen wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what country are you in? It doesn't sound like we are looking at following a similiar pattern to ye, in that they seem determined to have all students back full-time (which will be the least disruptive option if they can pull it off). I really feel handwashing facilities would go a long way towards helping us to keep schools open but with only 7 or 8 weeks to schools reopening I haven't heard any concrete plans to enable this.

we are in southern Germany and the plan currently is to aim for full opening here in September too, but we'll see if that actually happens.

Cases are really low (0 cases in last 8 days in Mecklenburg vorpommern state for example) in some regions, but down south its not quite as low, so I can see the eastern states going back 100% but ourselves sticking to a week on week off for a while, at least at the beginning.

The after school care is now back to almost normal for us, they are even there on the afternoons they have "home school" in the morning, so even if theres a bit of home schooling it'll not be the worst. Of course theres spacing and staggered meals and homework and lots of outdoors play at the after school so its as safe as they can make it.

To be honest, if I were planning Irelands return (for the first time since March) I'd nearly do it in split classes at the beginning, week on week off, for the first fortnight to get the kids into the routine in manageable numbers, beat into them that it's not normal school and they need to get into a routine for washing hands etc, dealing with staggered breaks or whatever well thought out plan the powers that be have came up with over the 20 odd weeks off.

A lot of the reasoning behind the idea with the german schools going back before summer, was to get a trial run in the good weather, get the kids into the routine AND with the summer holidays there as a buffer afterwards with time to go back and refine the plan with lessons learnt over the break - but at least the kids here know what to expect in September.

froog · 13-07-2020 04:18PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

At a certain concentration, when used correctly.

Lots of people dont use soap properly either. Not sure what your point is here. I assume you dont like shops telling you to disinfect your hands or something?

timmy_mallet · 13-07-2020 05:03PM

froog wrote: »

Lots of people dont use soap properly either. Not sure what your point is here. I assume you dont like shops telling you to disinfect your hands or something?

The point is, every single entrant to a premises is being requested to touch the santisier and if used incorrectly (which you agree above is likely) is MORE risky than not doing anything.

timmy_mallet · 13-07-2020 05:11PM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

we are in southern Germany and the plan currently is to aim for full opening here in September too, but we'll see if that actually happens.

Cases are really low (0 cases in last 8 days in Mecklenburg vorpommern state for example) in some regions, but down south its not quite as low, so I can see the eastern states going back 100% but ourselves sticking to a week on week off for a while, at least at the beginning.

The after school care is now back to almost normal for us, they are even there on the afternoons they have "home school" in the morning, so even if theres a bit of home schooling it'll not be the worst. Of course theres spacing and staggered meals and homework and lots of outdoors play at the after school so its as safe as they can make it.

To be honest, if I were planning Irelands return (for the first time since March) I'd nearly do it in split classes at the beginning, week on week off, for the first fortnight to get the kids into the routine in manageable numbers, beat into them that it's not normal school and they need to get into a routine for washing hands etc, dealing with staggered breaks or whatever well thought out plan the powers that be have came up with over the 20 odd weeks off.

A lot of the reasoning behind the idea with the german schools going back before summer, was to get a trial run in the good weather, get the kids into the routine AND with the summer holidays there as a buffer afterwards with time to go back and refine the plan with lessons learnt over the break - but at least the kids here know what to expect in September.

That's a fairly reasonable approach, which exposes a shocking lack of will from the stakeholders here.

r93kaey5p2izun · 13-07-2020 05:11PM

No more risky than everyone touching a tap and not washing correctly with soap. And WHO and HPSC still recommend washing or sanitizer for all on entry to a school or other building and at various other points in the day. I'd say they've some experience in assessing the risks related to managing hand hygiene in infectious outbreaks. Hand sanitizer in hospital foyers, for example, is nothing new and recommended as better than doing nothing.

If something so simple is going to be argued about then schools are in for a nightmare in September.

timmy_mallet · 13-07-2020 05:12PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Oh baby. Shocking level of understanding.

And the 'thanks' on the original post are an even further indication of the levels of general understanding of sanitary practices. Christ.

timmy_mallet · 13-07-2020 05:13PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

No more risky than everyone touching a tap and not washing correctly with soap. And WHO and HPSC still recommend washing or sanitizer for all on entry to a school or other building and at various other points in the day. I'd say they've some experience in assessing the risks related to managing hand hygiene in infectious outbreaks. Hand sanitizer in hospital foyers, for example, is nothing new and recommended as better than doing nothing.

If something so simple is going to be argued about then schools are in for a nightmare in September.

It is more risky, because the sanitiser is less effective.

timmy_mallet · 13-07-2020 05:14PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

If something so simple is going to be argued about then schools are in for a nightmare in September.

Well if the general public are ignorant of the risks, I would agree.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

Comments