How will schools be able to go back in September?

Cyrus wrote: »

Luckily most of our peer countries have reopened their schools so we have that experience to inform us as well. The doom you have outlined above has yet to be visited on the Danes for example ?

What about Leicester or Israel?
It would be ridiculous not to acknowledge that at the very least, localised school closures are likely next year. I really hope it doesn't happen but we do have to accept that some remote learning is a possibility next year.

leoXX wrote: »

Schools should never have been closed in the first place.

This is a case of 20:20 vision, in hindsight it is easy to say they probably should not have been closed as we know more about it now but back in March it was a novel coranavirus that had wreaked havoc in China and Italy before getting to us.

No one knew if it affected children or adults, as as it progressed we learnt new things about it, the signs and symptoms kept changing. We still are learning. But we had time to prepare so it was not as bad for us. We know a lot more about now then we did in March when the schools were closed.

Sammy2012 wrote: »

Wow! How is it that everything seems to boil back down to teachers pay and holidays. The payscacle is there for all to see when you are deciding your career path. The holidays have stayed the same in my lifetime and I'm sure many years before hand. Its not a secret club. Anyone can join. I studied to be something else in college and then decided to retrain as a teacher. I love my job. It's so rewarding. But believe me if I didnt, I wouldnt still be doing it. Its hard.

But to other teachers, can I ask you has the BOM talked to your principal/staff about paying for the implementation of any of the measures needed to allow the schools reopen? The government has said there will be no additional funding available so I'm wondering what schools are going to ensure everything is up to scratch.

The funding is a joke as it is. We didn’t have hot water in our school and not every sink had soap. There is no washing up liquid in my staff room. Half the time I would bring it in.

I would have no problem if my son’s primary school asked every student to bring in a liquid hand wash and a hand santizer. They could be stored in the classroom and the teacher or whoever is in charge of the toilets could put a hand wash out at a time.

I do something similar with my own subject.

Sure even for the handsanitizer the Dept said they would buy, in the HSE interim guideines schools were told for the moment to buy it themselves and be reimbursed later. They can barely afford toilet roll!

Social distancing isn’t going to work in primary schools. Full stop. We just need to accept this, and then decide what is next.

1. Do we continue to home school with the schools fully closed? Clearly not an option.

2. Do we open to small groups of students on a day on/day off basis, or half day basis? The reasoning for this is that children will be exposed for a reduced number of other children, reducing the chance of them catching the virus and passing it on to teachers and at home.

Except this doesn’t make sense from a safety perspective either.

70% of the children in my daughters’ classes are minded by someone other than their parents outside school hours. There’s a smattering of aupairs and childminders in the child’s own home, but the majority go to the after school in the school building or other ones in the area. So where will most children go on the three days they’re not in school? To a different facility, for an extended time, mixing with kids from other classes and possibly other schools. Exponentially increasing the likelihood of picking up the virus and passing it on to their teacher.

So perversely, the longer the child is in the school building, the more protected teachers will be.

3. Open schools for the full hours, for all pupils. Make teachers wear PPE, make pupils wear visors, increased hand washing, perhaps install Perspex screening in each classroom. Allow teachers that prove they are high risk or are living with someone high risk to teach remotely. They will be more like assistance teachers, maybe doing the reading/maths assistance classes.

The entire school does not need to be shut down if one person tests positive. The pupils class should sent home for 14 days and taught remotely. The school itself should close for a day to facilitate extra cleaning. If it proves there is a cluster in the school then it should shut for two weeks, and I think parents would understand that.

I haven’t even got to my opinion on “blended learning”. We are a household of two laptops, two iPads, and excellent broadband access. Two educated engaged parents with two full time jobs. Despite our best efforts and with extensive (but time-limited) flexibility given to us by our employers, I estimate my children learned about 10% of what they would have learned if they had been attending school. If we go back to limited school hours I simply refuse to do the distance learning aspect of it. My employer won’t give me the same flexibility have been “enjoying” up to now, I refuse to continue working every weekday until the early hours of the morning to catch up on work, for my own mental health, and I quite simply think it’s a waste of time. At most I will try to read every day with the senior infant, and practice handwriting. The third classer will use her library card and I’ll see if I can get her some YouTube maths tutorials. There will be no school projects, filling in templates online only to have the upload crash, taking pictures of play dough numbers etc etc. Just. No.

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Kieran Christie ASTI "Teachers, like all workers, must return to Covid-19 secure workplaces. Nothing less will be acceptable".

So on looking into what "Covid secure" actually means in practical terms, it's a phrase bandied about by Boris Johnson but doesn't have an official definition.

The general take on it seems to be that it basically means implementing additional hygiene procedures, putting up physical screens (where necessary) and having employees use personal protective equipment when they are unable to remain 2m apart.

Similar to what we have in the return to work safety protocol.

So we should have for schools:

- extra cleaning of premises

- hand hygiene

- controlled movement into and out of schools and in common areas

- PPE for teachers (optional)

- screened area and PPE in class room for vulnerable pupils (optional)

- classroom bubbles

- revised illness policies (staff and students)

- swift testing and tracing

- contingency plan for local closures

Realistically is there anything more that could be considered here and that would be implementable?

Just to clarify, does this mean there is no talk of strike action?

downthemiddle wrote: »

Just to clarify, does this mean there is no talk of strike action?

The word strike hasn't been mentioned by anyone except some people on here you want to make people think that teachers don't want to go back to the classroom in September. A bad choice of words from The ASTI general secretary in response to an equally badly worded/phrased question has somehow resulted in strike action being a thing when it isn't.

Can only speak for my own union, the INTO. It was asked for input and it submitted an excellent and practical approach but that it has been pretty much ignored. We as a sector don't look for much. Document is published on the INTO website for all to read.

downthemiddle wrote: »

Just to clarify, does this mean there is no talk of strike action?

I got that impression as well - but In fairness to some of the Teachers on this thread - they have said that this was taken out of context.

I do believe we should give that Mr Christie and the ASTI union the benefit of the doubt for the moment - and assume this is not the case.


Here's what I hope:

Plan A: Schools go back full-time and we have kids in a structured learning environment for full school day - it won't be the same as pre-cornavirus however we try and get it as close to that as possible.
Teachers are provided with the same protection as everyone else - face shields ,masks and full PPE if they so wish. Individual Schools will have to come up with whatever bespoke solutions they can - one size wont fit all here. Insisting on a workplace secure from covid is nonscience (as it is in any other workplace)


Plan B: If there is a case in a school - then there is the infrastructure and commitment in place for Teachers to provide at least a couple of hours of zoom/teams calls to their classes each day - and its consistent. Some Teachers went over and above over the last few months doing hours of video calls- some only sent a token email each week (based on the experiences of parents on this thread)

I am deeply disappointed that the Dept of Education didn't implement Plan B - especially for primary level while the lockdown was going on.
A cheap tablet with a data sim for each kid in primary is all that it would have taken - if they dont have something already (which most do). Teachers could have shown up for work to those empty classrooms if broadband was an issue and held the video calls from the schools. There is no reason why lessons couldnt have been broadcast from empty classrooms (and recorded).

Plan B is still needed.

And what we need to keep during all this is mutual respect on both sides for Parents and Teachers - each other really ! - I would venture to say that the Teachers and Parents on this thread - are here because we do genuinely want the best possible outcome.

Slating Teachers (who might have worked harder than a lot of people over the past few months) or speaking down to Parents (who might be actually better educated) is not conducive.



As an aside - one positive from all this - is that I actually have much better idea of where my kids are really at in terms of their education - what they have been taught and the quality of the materials.

Some of the primary books are a real disgrace in my view !

For example the quality of the Irish books my kids have are completely sub-standard with loads of errors, and inconsistent difficulty levels - the people who are responsible should really be ashamed.

The maths books rely too much on filling in blanks/workbooks - and really dont give any guidence on the concepts - and also have errors.

Anyway - long post - but hopefully adds to the conversation

richardw001 wrote: »

I got that impression as well - but In fairness to some of the Teachers on this thread - they have said that this was taken out of context.

I do believe we should give that Mr Christie and the ASTI union the benefit of the doubt for the moment - and assume this is not the case.


Here's what I hope:

Plan A: Schools go back full-time and we have kids in a structured learning environment for full school day - it won't be the same as pre-cornavirus however we try and get it as close to that as possible.
Teachers are provided with the same protection as everyone else - face shields ,masks and full PPE if they so wish. Individual Schools will have to come up with whatever bespoke solutions they can - one size wont fit all here. Insisting on a workplace secure from covid is nonscience (as it is in any other workplace)


Plan B: If there is a case in a school - then there is the infrastructure and commitment in place for Teachers to provide at least a couple of hours of zoom/teams calls to their classes each day - and its consistent. Some Teachers went over and above over the last few months doing hours of video calls- some only sent a token email each week (based on the experiences of parents on this thread)

I am deeply disappointed that the Dept of Education didn't implement Plan B - especially for primary level while the lockdown was going on.
A cheap tablet with a data sim for each kid in primary is all that it would have taken - if they dont have something already (which most do). Teachers could have shown up for work to those empty classrooms if broadband was an issue and held the video calls from the schools. There is no reason why lessons couldnt have been broadcast from empty classrooms (and recorded).

Plan B is still needed.

And what we need to keep during all this is mutual respect on both sides for Parents and Teachers - each other really ! - I would venture to say that the Teachers and Parents on this thread - are here because we do genuinely want the best possible outcome.

Slating Teachers (who might have worked harder than a lot of people over the past few months) or speaking down to Parents (who might be actually better educated) is not conducive.



As an aside - one positive from all this - is that I actually have much better idea of where my kids are really at in terms of their education - what they have been taught and the quality of the materials.

Some of the primary books are a real disgrace in my view !

For example the quality of the Irish books my kids have are completely sub-standard with loads of errors, and inconsistent difficulty levels - the people who are responsible should really be ashamed.

The maths books rely too much on filling in blanks/workbooks - and really dont give any guidence on the concepts - and also have errors.

Anyway - long post - but hopefully adds to the conversation

I'll take one word from all that you typed and that is consistent. For this to happen a framework document from the department needs to be issued outlining what is expected under various different scenarios. What happens otherwise is what can be seen here in the large discrepancies with regards to what us teachers on here have experienced and what the some parents on here have experienced. Dept in my opinion will do anything to not put stuff down on paper as that will require a commitment to provide funding which governments don't want to give to the education sector.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'll take one word from all that you typed and that is consistent. For this to happen a framework document from the department needs to be issued outlining what is expected under various different scenarios. What happens otherwise is what can be seen here in the large discrepancies with regards to what us teachers on here have experienced and what the some parents on here have experienced. Dept in my opinion will do anything to not put stuff down on paper as that will require a commitment to provide funding which governments don't want to give to the education sector.

Well I would have hoped for maybe 3 or 4 words - but I'll settle for 1 :-)

Theres an interesting article on the Irish times if people are interested

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-hairdressers-ran-our-schools-every-child-would-be-going-back-in-september-1.4295545

richardw001 wrote: »

Well I would have hoped for maybe 3 or 4 words - but I'll settle for 1 :-)

Theres an interesting article on the Irish times if people are interested

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-hairdressers-ran-our-schools-every-child-would-be-going-back-in-september-1.4295545

I'll bet you if you did a survey of teachers the percentage who want a return to blended learning would be very low. Yes there were some who did very little over the past 3 months but alot tired their best. As both a parent and a teacher I think blended learning is a load of rubbish! You cannot teach young children in this way. Kids learn by doing and working on a tablet or laptop is no substitute for this. As a parent I didnt overly encourage my child to engage but do I feel they are behind. Not at all. In fact they have learned so much in different ways.

Teachers want to go back to the classroom. That's a fact. But there needs to be a comprehensive plan as to what happens if....and then each school adapts it to suit their own individual situation. And that needs to be done now. Not in September. School boards and management need to be putting these procedures in place now and be ready to go in September. Schools will all be open in 8 weeks. Which is not that far away.

Murple wrote: »

I stopped caring about what she had to say from this section
- "When we are schooling or running an impromptu summer camp while trying to hold down your other job. You know, the one you are actually qualified for and get paid to do."

If she can't write an informative article without cheap digs specifically directed at teachers, then she shouldn't be writing for what was once a reputable, reliable and high quality newspaper.

I understood that sentence to be about herself and not the teachers ? Her other job the one she gets paid for ?

richardw001 wrote: »

Well I would have hoped for maybe 3 or 4 words - but I'll settle for 1 :-)

Theres an interesting article on the Irish times if people are interested

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-hairdressers-ran-our-schools-every-child-would-be-going-back-in-september-1.4295545

I have to laugh every time an article talks about cameras in classrooms for remote learning. It's the mark of someone who knows nothing about primary teaching or children of that age - do they think the teacher stands up at the top of the room giving a lecture? Or if their child has to be disciplined, are these people happy to have the rest of the parents possibly watching?

I do think a camera in certain classrooms would be eye opening as to the behaviour of certain kids and the total lack of support. Maybe it'd be a good thing, who knows.

richardw001 wrote: »

Theres an interesting article on the Irish times if people are interested

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/if-hairdressers-ran-our-schools-every-child-would-be-going-back-in-september-1.4295545

It really isn't.