How will schools be able to go back in September?

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 03-07-2020 06:31PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

No, disgustingly inadequate education funding is not a recent issue. That is the point. Parents did not make Education funding flavour of the month. They failed to make it an election issue. Repeatedly. Over many elections. In good times and in bad. The media would focus on it if all parents were interested. The only commentary around making education an election issue has been from unions.

Yes that's what I said, it's not a recent issue.

I really don't think parents are to blame for decades of inadequate investment and poor planning.

thomasdylan · 03-07-2020 06:41PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Presumably it didn't help with the spread? Compare them to Canada for example who did close schools. The fact is they shut them completely for a reason. To control spread.

I had a look a while ago and there was no evidence that leaving schools open with a skeleton staff for less than 5% of students had any effect on spread.

Would Healthcare staff being unable to work because of childcare issues have caused increased mortality and morbidity in places like London. Probably, buts it's also impossible to quantify.

There was no increased mortality for teachers over any other job. Social workers and bus and taxi drivers had the highest mortality rates as far as I can remember.

thomasdylan · 03-07-2020 06:43PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Do you think we should have copied the UK? Do you think their approach was better? I'm certainly glad I'm not in the UK.

You're trying to break it down to a binary question which it's not. It's not UK bad Ireland good.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 06:43PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

I had a look a while ago and there was no evidence that leaving schools open with a skeleton staff for less than 5% of students had any effect on spread.

Would Healthcare staff being unable to work because of childcare issues have caused increased mortality and morbidity in places like London. Probably, buts it's also impossible to quantify.

There was no increased mortality for teachers over any other job. Social workers and bus and taxi drivers had the highest mortality rates as far as I can remember.

I think the fact their numbers of deaths were so bad is the sign that lots of things they did just didn't work. Not sure where you're finding this magic study to say that it had no effect. They just dont know yet.

thomasdylan · 03-07-2020 06:45PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Thomas dylan
Why was it more of an issue for nurses than other health care workers as a matter of interest?

Nurses are predominantly female. So are doctors and physios and pharmacists but nurses are probably 90% female.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 06:46PM

Are you aware of how many teachers died in the UK? It's around 65 and given the number if health workers who died here was 7 from looking at a study today, if you multiply it by population difference then it basically must have been as high risk being a teacher in the UK as it was to be a healthcare worker here during the pandemic.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 06:51PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Yes that's what I said, it's not a recent issue.

I really don't think parents are to blame for decades of inadequate investment and poor planning.

I will be honest and tell you the issue. In America and other countries, the people support their teachers, and fight for better conditions and better pay. You can tell by the way they talk about education and teachers that they just have more respect for the profession, its staff, and they want better conditions for all. Now their system is flawed and ours is better. But you will notice that here it is different. The media turn it into a us versus them, parents versus teachers and this deflects from the real issues that the teachers are actually fighting for. The reason fro example there is a shortages in staff is that it just doesn't pay well as a new teacher and the young teachers leave for better conditions elsewhere. The media in Ireland, particularly the Irish times vilify teachers and the real problems are hidden and the public and parents join in with it.(not all but majority) Many years on and no problems are solved and here the media go again blaming teachers.

mcsean2163 · 03-07-2020 06:53PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

That's a shame that you became unemployed and I hope you find a new job soon. However it has nothing to do with me not wanting to work for free.

Before something gets said about "one email a week isn't working", I did hours of daily live lessons with my class along with the correcting/tech support etc. The kids got taught because during term time, that is what I am paid to do. Outside of term time their education isn't my responsibility - if the Govt want additional days from me then they can pay me for it. It's not entitlement, it's just not being a mug.

This notion of extra schooling will never happen anyway, I will just be happy if hand sanitizer gets properly funded next year.

I have battled through redundancies, completed a master's degree in engineering and paid for and completed a large range of professional exams. In the absence of childcare and schools my business has failed. I will pull up my socks again when I can but as someone in my 40s with no pension, the odds are stacked against me.

I would have hoped teachers would step up in a national crisis.

To have to listen to someone talk about profiteering from covid19...

It's disgusting.

I'm sure everyone knew who the useless teachers were when they went to school. There needs to be a better weeding out process to ensure that the ones looking for a handy number, great pay, great pensions and big holidays are rejected and only the ones that genuinely want to reach get the position.

Big reform is needed in this sector.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 06:56PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I have battled through redundancies, completed a master's degree in engineering and paid for and completed a large range of professional exams. In the absence of childcare and schools my business has failed. I will pull up my socks again when I can but as someone in my 40s with no pension, the odds are stacked against me.

I would have hoped teachers would step up in a national crisis.

To have to listen to someone talk about profiteering from covid19...

It's disgusting.

I'm sure everyone knew who the useless teachers were when they went to school. There needs to be a better weeding out process to ensure that the ones looking for a handy number, great pay, great pensions and big holidays are rejected and only the ones that genuinely want to reach get the position.

Big reform is needed in this sector.

You probably should have paid into a pension from a young age like all teachers do. It costs quite a lot but its nobody's fault here that you didn't. If you can do better than us then join us. Surely an engineer could maybe do a postgraduate in physics and teach that?

BonsaiKitten · 03-07-2020 07:09PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

I will be honest and tell you the issue. In America and other countries, the people support their teachers, and fight for better conditions and better pay. You can tell by the way they talk about education and teachers that they just have more respect for the profession, its staff, and they want better conditions for all. Now their system is flawed and ours is better. But you will notice that here it is different. The media turn it into a us versus them, parents versus teachers and this deflects from the real issues that the teachers are actually fighting for. The reason fro example there is a shortages in staff is that it just doesn't pay well as a new teacher and the young teachers leave for better conditions elsewhere. The media in Ireland, particularly the Irish times vilify teachers and the real problems are hidden and the public and parents join in with it.(not all but majority) Many years on and no problems are solved and here the media go again blaming teachers.

Jesus that's not the impression I get at all from American teachers, I would say the vast majority are in a much worse position than Irish teachers are.

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I have battled through redundancies, completed a master's degree in engineering and paid for and completed a large range of professional exams. In the absence of childcare and schools my business has failed. I will pull up my socks again when I can but as someone in my 40s with no pension, the odds are stacked against me.

I would have hoped teachers would step up in a national crisis.

To have to listen to someone talk about profiteering from covid19...

It's disgusting.

I'm sure everyone knew who the useless teachers were when they went to school. There needs to be a better weeding out process to ensure that the ones looking for a handy number, great pay, great pensions and big holidays are rejected and only the ones that genuinely want to reach get the position.

Big reform is needed in this sector.

Your redundancies, qualifications and pension are nothing to do with me. As I said, I genuinely hope work comes back for you soon.

I am not profiteering - I simply won't work for free. I would have thought that's not a difficult concept to understand. If the Govt want extra work outside of term time (not counting planning work for the next school year) then that work can be paid for. If not, it's not happening.

My time to step up was during the school term and as I said, I taught live lessons every day. The kids worked damn hard and the core curriculum was completed. Considering the restrictions we were working under, I'm more than happy with that.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 03-07-2020 07:13PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I'm sure everyone knew who the useless teachers were when they went to school. There needs to be a better weeding out process to ensure that the ones looking for a handy number, great pay, great pensions and big holidays are rejected and only the ones that genuinely want to reach get the position.

Big reform is needed in this sector.

I would have said that the teachers with that attitude are a dying breed/old school but sadly it's just not the case.

Recent lockdown experience with a teacher who maybe graduated a couple of years ago, a digital native and all I got was one email a week.

I don't know how you'd manage to screen someone's reasons to choose the profession. I don't think it's the kind of job you could do very well if your heart wasn't in it.

My own personal experience with many teachers over the years is that thankfully the majority are in it for the right reasons.

And few that aren't, we'll it really does show. You can tell they just shouldn't have chosen that career, they struggle and as a result they diminish the reputation of all the brilliant teachers.

mcsean2163 · 03-07-2020 07:14PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

You probably should have paid into a pension from a young age like all teachers do. It costs quite a lot but its nobody's fault here that you didn't. If you can do better than us then join us. Surely an engineer could maybe do a postgraduate in physics and teach that?

So people should just accept the lack of commitment and exorbitant wages teachers charge with the only alternative to become a teacher.

The pensions awarded to this cohort are very generous.

The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.

The contributions made by teachers do not reflect the payout.

Yes, I should have done more. I started contributing in my first job but the company let go half its staff within year, etc. It's been a common theme in many technology companies. I have done what I can.

My issue is not so much with the payment and pensions but the sense of entitlement and complete refusal of the majority of this cohort to contribute meaningfully in a national crisis. Don't get me wrong, I know there are brilliant, committed teachers but definitely in our hour of need, it seems the grifters have pulled down the whole sector.

Many of the sector are now a bad example to the children they are meant to inspire and educate. Reform needed now.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 07:15PM

American parents as an example I feel tend to blame the government and want more funding rather than blaming the teachers. I'm only judging from media etc I see but the attitude here always takes an anti teacher turn even though Irish teachers are some of the best trained and most in demand internationally. Primary teachers here for example teach more levels ans subjects than most other countries. We also actually have more contact hours too but that's a discussion for another day. The attitude towards the profession on here would put anyone off the job. It's usually the people who know the least about what the job entails that are the most critical.

thomasdylan · 03-07-2020 07:16PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Are you aware of how many teachers died in the UK? It's around 65 and given the number if health workers who died here was 7 from looking at a study today, if you multiply it by population difference then it basically must have been as high risk being a teacher in the UK as it was to be a healthcare worker here during the pandemic.

This is a really dishonest post.

1. 65 teachers haven't died of Covid-19 in the UK. I don't tnink any death has been linkedbto schools remaining open with skeleton staff.
2. You're trying to compare mortality rates from two different population with different disease incidences and recording of deaths.
3. There is no increased death rate from Coronavirus for teachers compared to the average in the UK.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 07:18PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

So people should just accept the lack of commitment and exorbitant wages teachers charge with the only alternative to become a teacher.

The pensions awarded to this cohort are very generous.

The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.

The contributions made by teachers do not reflect the payout.

Yes, I should have done more. I started contributing in my first job but the company let go half its staff within year, etc. It's been a common theme in many technology companies. I have done what I can.

My issue is not so much with the payment and pensions but the sense of entitlement and complete refusal of the majority of this cohort to contribute meaningfully in a national crisis. Don't get me wrong, I know there are brilliant, committed teachers but definitely in our hour of need, it seems the grifters have pulled down the whole sector.

Many of the sector are a bad influence on the children that are in their care. Reform needed now.

Maybe your sectors also need reform if they all keep collapsing. At the end of the day you don't seem to have any experience of teaching or want to do it. If you won't do the job yourself you probably aren't in a position to judge and complain. In my opinion. If you fancy getting s job in the civil service and influencing this reform then why don't you try. Nobody is stopping you from getting any of these jobs and you seem well qualified. Some people in tech also make huge money, is that the industry you mentioned you were in?

BonsaiKitten · 03-07-2020 07:22PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

American parents as an example I feel tend to blame the government and want more funding rather than blaming the teachers. I'm only judging from media etc I see but the attitude here always takes an anti teacher turn even though Irish teachers are some of the best trained and most in demand internationally. Primary teachers here for example teach more levels ans subjects than most other countries. We also actually have more contact hours too but that's a discussion for another day. The attitude towards the profession on here would put anyone off the job. It's usually the people who know the least about what the job entails that are the most critical.

I highly recommend going to /r/teachers and looking at the US teachers talk about their conditions and expectations. I had an American student teacher a few years ago - when she went back home I remember being shocked to see her fundraising for her own classroom supplies as the school district couldn't/wouldn't provide. We're talking basics like tables and chairs here, not anything frivolous.

There's a lot wrong with our country but I tell you, I'll take it over America any day of the week.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 07:22PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

This is a really dishonest post.

1. 65 teachers haven't died of Covid-19 in the UK. I don't tnink any death has been linkedbto schools remaining open with skeleton staff.
2. You're trying to compare mortality rates from two different population with different disease incidences and recording of deaths.
3. There is no increased death rate from Coronavirus for teachers compared to the average in the UK.

https://www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-revealed-least-26-teachers-have-died-covid-19

If you go to this link they say 65 education staff and that was actually just in the dates given in the article. You probably checked your information the same place where you seemed to magically know that keeping the schools open for key workers staff had no impact on spread. A bit cheeky to accuse me of being dishonest.

What is shocking is this was only between march and April.

downthemiddle · 03-07-2020 07:25PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Many of the sector are now a bad example to the children they are meant to inspire and educate.

How many?
Please give examples.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 07:27PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I highly recommend going to /r/teachers and looking at the US teachers talk about their conditions and expectations. I had an American student teacher a few years ago - when she went back home I remember being shocked to see her fundraising for her own classroom supplies as the school district couldn't/wouldn't provide. We're talking basics like tables and chairs here, not anything frivolous.

There's a lot wrong with our country but I tell you, I'll take it over America any day of the week.

I know their conditions are worse I am taking about the attitude of the people there. In my view they have more respect for education and teachers in general. I think maybe the fact they also pay so much for college themselves they appreciate it more. In my view.

mcsean2163 · 03-07-2020 07:33PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

American parents as an example I feel tend to blame the government and want more funding rather than blaming the teachers. I'm only judging from media etc I see but the attitude here always takes an anti teacher turn even though Irish teachers are some of the best trained and most in demand internationally. Primary teachers here for example teach more levels ans subjects than most other countries. We also actually have more contact hours too but that's a discussion for another day. The attitude towards the profession on here would put anyone off the job. It's usually the people who know the least about what the job entails that are the most critical.

Maybe American's feel alienated from their government?

We're a small country that has a budget and know where that money is going.

I can't speak for American's but know the lockdown education received by kids in Chicago in school was far better than received by our kids from their school.

It certainly makes me wonder when our extremely well paid teachers let us down so badly in a national crisis. It's disgusting to think that our taxes in Ireland are swallowed up by a sector that aquits itself in such a fashion.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 07:35PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Maybe American's feel alienated from their government?

We're a small country that has a budget and know where that money is going.

I can't speak for American's but know the lockdown education received by kids in Chicago in school was far better than received by our kids from their school.

It certainly makes me wonder when our extremely well paid teachers let us down so badly in a national crisis. It's disgusting to think that our taxes in Ireland are swallowed up by a sector that aquits itself in such a fashion.

Can you explain the ways in which teachers in Chicago were better than Irish teachers? Such a strange comparison to make unless you have lots of actual examples of how they compare which I'm sure you do?

Rodin · 03-07-2020 07:36PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

Well this is it. Chickens coming home to roost. Parents did not value education when it mattered. General Election exit poll - most important issues:

Health 32%
Housing/Homelessness 26%
Pension Age 8%
Climate Change 6%
Jobs 6%
Taxation 4%
Childcare 3%
Crime 3%
Brexit 1%
Immigration 1%
Other 6%
Not Stated 5%

Overcrowded classrooms, prefabs, no hot water (no mains water at all in many cases), inadequate funding for hygiene provision, crisis in availability of subject teachers and subs. All lost in "other". Now it's urgent. And it's too late. Shame.

To be fair, the most common thing one would hear teachers giving out about is pay.
Not one of the other things.

Rodin · 03-07-2020 07:37PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Maybe American's feel alienated from their government?

We're a small country that has a budget and know where that money is going.

I can't speak for American's but know the lockdown education received by kids in Chicago in school was far better than received by our kids from their school.

It certainly makes me wonder when our extremely well paid teachers let us down so badly in a national crisis. It's disgusting to think that our taxes in Ireland are swallowed up by a sector that aquits itself in such a fashion.

Perhaps if you tell us your first hand experience of your children's teacher(s) during the lockdown.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 07:37PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Maybe American's feel alienated from their government?

We're a small country that has a budget and know where that money is going.

I can't speak for American's but know the lockdown education received by kids in Chicago in school was far better than received by our kids from their school.

It certainly makes me wonder when our extremely well paid teachers let us down so badly in a national crisis. It's disgusting to think that our taxes in Ireland are swallowed up by a sector that aquits itself in such a fashion.

Also could we for example start comparing your business that has failed to ones that did not and say they were better? We could, but that would not take into account the various differences and reasons covid may have affected yours more than theirs. Such a weird thing to compare things you know nothing about and say one is better. I can compare attitudes of people as they are clear in media and posts by people and people I have known but I can't really say they have a great education system as I just dont know.

History Queen · 03-07-2020 07:38PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Maybe American's feel alienated from their government?

We're a small country that has a budget and know where that money is going.

I can't speak for American's but know the lockdown education received by kids in Chicago in school was far better than received by our kids from their school.

It certainly makes me wonder when our extremely well paid teachers let us down so badly in a national crisis. It's disgusting to think that our taxes in Ireland are swallowed up by a sector that aquits itself in such a fashion.

Are you saying all teachers let the country down? Please explain to me what I did or didn't do that leads you to believe that I let the country down.

History Queen · 03-07-2020 07:39PM

Rodin wrote: »

To be fair, the most common thing one would hear teachers giving out about is pay.
Not one of the other things.

Pay equality for the post 2011 teachers

r93kaey5p2izun · 03-07-2020 07:40PM

Rodin wrote: »

To be fair, the most common thing one would hear teachers giving out about is pay.
Not one of the other things.

And pay is a significant factor in why there is a crisis shortage of subject teachers and in subs.

But if you haven't heard the unions demanding improved PTR and provision of aready agreed school buildings, then I'd suggest you just weren't bothered listening.

Dublingirl80 · 03-07-2020 07:41PM

History Queen wrote: »

Are you saying all teachers let the country down? Please explain to me what I did or didn't do that leads you to believe that I let the country down.

I actually get the impression mcsean is just bitter. He doesn't want to be a teacher but is happy to criticise lots of aspects of the job. But he does not want to do it even though he isn't working at the moment so it would be the perfect time. Anyone would think he may actually know deep down it is actually quite difficult.

mcsean2163 · 03-07-2020 07:43PM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Can you explain the ways in which teachers in Chicago were better than Irish teachers? Such a strange comparison to make unless you have lots of actual examples of how they compare which I'm sure you do?

Friend there, child in same class showed me his sons daily colour coded curriculum complemented by daily zoom classes and corrected nightly.

My child in same class, 3 zoom meetings in total and a weekly blog.

I mentioned Chicago as the previous poster spoke of America.

History Queen · 03-07-2020 07:44PM

Actuslly really interesting that US teachers shared many of the concerns that we do and faced many of the same issues re inequality of access to tech etc. Looks like many issues were more global than we realised.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/coronavirus-teachers-unions-school-home.html

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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