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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Comments

  • #7442
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,167 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Ah the "future", how impractically and illogically vague but I suppose that is necessary to back up your watery claims.

    So how would you phrase it ?
    Oh sorry, mistook you for someone with something to contribute other than hysteria .


  • #7443
    Damiencm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Damiencm


    Goldengirl wrote:
    Don't really mind about where you go as long as you are tested or / and isolate on return . That is where they need to be concentrating, not on banning folk from travelling . If you came from Belgium to be told you only have to isolate until your test result came back, it would be far more palatable .


    Is it realistic to test everyone though? It may be for a few weeks while passenger numbers are low but not thereafter.

    I think the best we could hope for is the Spanish style locator form, temp check and visual check. I'm not sure anything beyond that is realistic.

    Coming back to the free movement that's now pretty much back at EU level. People are crossing borders all the time be it from Spain to Gibraltar, Poland to Germany every morning and evening for work. The same is happening here in the border counties.

    Closed borders is a (very) short term solution only in Pandemics. It's just not sustainable indefinitely.


  • #7444
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    Isn't Canada different from US , infection wise ?

    Not on the current eu green list. 3 to 400 cases a day and a massive ****storm across the 9,000km southern border


  • #7445
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    So how would you phrase it ?
    Oh sorry, mistook you for someone with something to contribute other than hysteria .

    Tell me on what basis social distancing is still required in Ireland where our hospitals have plenty of capacity to deal with an increase in hospitalisations, daily numbers are now pretty much at zero and TH has said 6 weeks ago community transmission is dead?

    The virus only transmits in the community where it is in the community and it is not currently in the community. The risk is from abroad.

    In any event, I take it you have not gone out and about or met friends and family the last few weeks as I see a complete lack of willpower or ability to adhere to masks and social distancing, which is quickly going to escalate the more things open. So your wet dream of a sanitised society won't last for more than a few more weeks.


  • #7446
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,167 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Damiencm wrote: »
    Is it realistic to test everyone though? It may be for a few weeks while passenger numbers are low but not thereafter.

    I think the best we could hope for is the Spanish style locator form, temp check and visual check. I'm not sure anything beyond that is realistic.

    Coming back to the free movement that's now pretty much back at EU level. People are crossing borders all the time be it from Spain to Gibraltar, Poland to Germany every morning and evening for work. The same is happening here in the border counties.

    Closed borders is a (very) short term solution only in Pandemics. It's just not sustainable indefinitely.

    What you say could be done, but why not test all those entering from countries other than green list ones? A locator form with a question about origin , temp and visual check will only pick up some infected people , but not asymptomatic or pre symptomatic.
    There is minimal testing , correct me if I'm wrong , ongoing at present and if this is where the CMO has expressed his concern ie .travel , well then let them test everyone they are concerned about and let people travel .


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  • #7447
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,978 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Not on the current eu green list. 3 to 400 cases a day and a massive ****storm across the 9,000km southern border

    The frustrating thing is that he is in Manitoba. Covid has barely made an impact there.

    1.4m population. 63k+ tested with only 325 positive. 7 deaths. Only 18 active cases currently in the entire province.


  • #7448
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,167 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Tell me on what basis social distancing is still required in Ireland where our hospitals have plenty of capacity to deal with an increase in hospitalisations, daily numbers are now pretty much at zero and TH has said 6 weeks ago community transmission is dead?

    The virus only transmits in the community where it is in the community and it is not currently in the community. The risk is from abroad.

    In any event, I take it you have not gone out and about or met friends and family the last few weeks as I see a complete lack of willpower or ability to adhere to masks and social distancing, which is quickly going to escalate the more things open. So your wet dream of a sanitised society won't last for more than a few more weeks.


    I don't think you know anything about me to speak with such authority.
    I have of course been at work ..but also out shopping , with a mask as necessary , on more than a few occasions , been to the hairdresser and the local for a drink and a bite , as well as out with friends and family .
    Everywhere I see people complying with the regulations , apsrt from the odd one , so I don't know where you are seeing such disregard.
    The virus is suppressed successfully, but not " dead " .

    Your language and tone is always offensive .
    Don't address me again .


  • #7449
    MOR316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,255 ✭✭✭MOR316


    Must admit, I cried tears of happiness today.

    To be able to go and sit by the sea again, after all this time was a big thing for me. I missed it so much!

    I'm a simple man...To be able to get out again and to breathe that sea air and to be where I feel I belong...No words can describe it


  • #7450
    greensheep777
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭greensheep777


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    it is very narrow minded of you to extrapolate that anybody here may or may not have been pro life or pro choice depending on their viewpoint on the present situation .
    That ...says it all , as far as I am concerned . That you would even talk about these issues , which are not relevant to this discussion at all , shows how you are just dragging stuff up trying to justify some sort of picture in your head about Ireland and anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint .

    Ah jesus Goldengirl, your reading comprehension is as poor as your writing.

    Here's what I actually said:
    greensheep777 wrote:
    There are a lot of similarities between the pro-lockdown crowd and the pro-life crowd.

    Now you put on your reading glasses, ask a friend for help, and show me where I said that anybody here IS pro-life based on their lockdown opinions. Look up the word "similarities" and compare to the word "is".
    Goldengirl wrote: »
    trying to justify some sort of picture in your head about Ireland

    Picture in my head? It's no picture, it's my own experience of Irish people and the national love for judging others.


  • #7451
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,705 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    greensheep777 wrote: »
    There are a lot of similarities between the pro-lockdown crowd and the pro-life crowd. The pro-lockdown crowd don't care if people die, so long as it's not of coronavirus, and will stop at nothing to get what they want, regardless of the consequences. Because *they* wouldn't do x/y/z, they want nobody to have the right to it. If you don't agree with them, it's because you're obviously some sort of murderer.

    There are a lot of similarities between the anti-lockdown crowd and the 'America, Fu*k Yeah!!!' War On Terror crowd.


    "Why do the other side behave the way they do? because they're just jealous of our freedoms, that's why"

    (seen that same kind of attitude in the pro-choice side as well, no attempt to understand, just project and ridicule, but that's another thread...)


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  • #7452
    Hannibal36
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭Hannibal36


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We should go for some sort of alert level system to raise awareness.

    1 - no internal control, travel to green countries
    2 - no large gatherings, targeted social distancing, travel to green countries - where we should be at the moment
    3 - masks, 2m social distance, travel quarantine where we are currently
    4 - Back to phase 2+ Masks
    5 - back to phase 1

    I think we will possibly hover between 1, 2 and sometimes 3 until this is over

    This post is all kinds of sad for me,its been 4 months now,no young of healthy people are dying,when is some kind of common sense gonna descend on the masses.

    In reality you guys cheering it on are the ones profiting the longer it goes,you would be a fool otherwise.


  • #7453
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    There are a lot of similarities between the anti-lockdown crowd and the 'America, Fu*k Yeah!!!' War On Terror crowd.


    "Why do the other side behave the way they do? because they're just jealous of our freedoms, that's why"

    (seen that same kind of attitude in the pro-choice side as well, no attempt to understand, just project and ridicule, but that's another thread...)

    Sometimes is hard to attempt to understand the incomprehensible arguments, especially when supported by dogma not fact


  • #7454
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hannibal36 wrote: »
    This post is all kinds of sad for me,its been 4 months now,no young of healthy people are dying,when is some kind of common sense gonna descend on the masses.

    In reality you guys cheering it on are the ones profiting the longer it goes,you would be a fool otherwise.

    What on earth are you on about out? In my post I said we should be more open than we are now, and that I don't envisage any circumstances where we will have to revert to more restrictions than we have now.


  • #7455
    Naos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭Naos


    Arghus wrote: »
    No, that's not what I'm arguing. And you are also trying to muddy the waters by arguing that it's analogous to earlier events from the 90's, that don’t actually have anything to do with what we are talking about here.

    When a poster spends literally every day over a period of months framing every single one of their arguments about the terrible damage that is being done to the economy and then turns their nose up at the chance to spend some money at home to help with economic recovery, as innumerable small business owners, etc have asked people to do - well then it is hypocritical for them to have argued that their main concern is the economic well being of the country.

    Of course, it isn't hypocritical if they aren't being sincere and are just on a wind up.

    I appreciate the back up but for me, there is really no point in engaging further.

    If they really cannot see the glaring hypocrisy then what's the point - a debate is fun when both sides are open to new ideas or are at the very least, willing to accept when one of their arguments is soundly beaten.

    This is just like speaking to a soundboard.


  • #7456
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    There is a possibility to petition the EU Parliament In respect of the actions of the Irish Government in directly and indirectly curtailing freedom of movement in the EU which is not risk based.

    https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/home


  • #7457
    Damiencm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Damiencm


    Goldengirl wrote:
    What you say could be done, but why not test all those entering from countries other than green list ones? A locator form with a question about origin , temp and visual check will only pick up some infected people , but not asymptomatic or pre symptomatic. There is minimal testing , correct me if I'm wrong , ongoing at present and if this is where the CMO has expressed his concern ie .travel , well then let them test everyone they are concerned about and let people travel .


    Provided a green list is at EU level then I would have no issue with the above


  • #7458
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    Some sober reading on retail sales. Read this as jobs, taxes and subsidies.


  • #7459
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,339 ✭✭✭Allinall


    MickeyLeari wrote: »
    There is a possibility to petition the EU Parliament In respect of the actions of the Irish Government in directly and indirectly curtailing freedom of movement in the EU which is not risk based.

    https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/home

    What actions to curtail freedom of movement have they taken, or are proposing to take, that are not risk based?


  • #7460
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    MickeyLeari wrote: »
    Some sober reading on retail sales. Read this as jobs, taxes and subsidies.
    There is this from two days ago, which suggests a welcome reverse of those numbers.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0630/1150615-spend-yesterday-approached-pre-covid-levels-revolut/


  • #7461
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    is_that_so wrote: »
    There is this from two days ago, which suggests a welcome reverse of those numbers.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0630/1150615-spend-yesterday-approached-pre-covid-levels-revolut/

    Seamus Coffey formerly head of the Fiscal Advisory Council is doing the analysis I showed (I should have accredited it). He is wise, non dramatic and trusted.


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  • #7462
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    MickeyLeari wrote: »
    Seamus Coffey formerly head of the Fiscal Advisory Council is doing the analysis I showed (I should have accredited it). He is wise, non dramatic and trusted.
    Sure but it's up to May and we've just opened up. That's data from a financial company suggesting much more activity, a good thing.


  • #7463
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,633 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    setanta1984 wrote: »
    This thread is ruined by constant bickering and sniping at where people express their holiday preferences (which are also quite clearly a wind up)

    The thread is supposed to be about the "Relaxation of Restrictions" on the basics of everyday life in Ireland, can the hand wringing about where people want to go on holiday be done in its own thread or one of the travel threads or something?


    So as this post isn't just a complaint, a fairly simple question or the people who are constantly arguing with the "restriction hysterics" (as a post called them) - I asked this question on this thread a few days ago, but got no answer. I'd be very interested in what people who consistently complain about people wanting restrictions lifted further honestly think.

    Keep them until there is a vaccine or a widely available treatment with proven efficacy. This is what 'new normal' means.


  • #7464
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MickeyLeari wrote: »
    There is a possibility to petition the EU Parliament In respect of the actions of the Irish Government in directly and indirectly curtailing freedom of movement in the EU which is not risk based.

    https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/home

    There is no one curtailing freedom of movement. You can board any flight or ferry you choose


  • #7465
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    Allinall wrote: »
    What actions to curtail freedom of movement have they taken, or are proposing to take, that are not risk based?

    It is a blanket restriction to EU Freedom of Movement which does not take account of the fact that other EU countries have less Covid 19 cases than we have and are therefore less of a risk. Furthermore a risk framework Is being developed which we seem to be opting out of although it seems there are differing views on this one.


  • #7466
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Sure but it's up to May and we've just opened up. That's data from a financial company suggesting much more activity, a good thing.

    Fair enough. Seamus is a good one to follow on Twitter.


  • #7467
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    There is no one curtailing freedom of movement. You can board any flight or ferry you choose

    A non risk based quarantine (albeit advisory) is an indirect curtailment of freedom of movement. Combine this with the recent messaging from the Minister for Emigrant Education and the CMO.


  • #7468
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,633 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    I find the 'but what if there is never any vaccine' line of argument highly disingenuous. There are numerous streams of vaccine trials underway, with one already into a 3rd stage and moved to a context where there is high community transmission. All of these vaccines might fail, and if that's the case we'll know within 12 months of now. At that point, we might have to assume the vaccine creation effort won't get there, and adjust public health policy accordingly.

    But there's a lot of misinformation being peddled by people who know better with a political or personal agenda. It is true to say that vaccines take years, but it is also true to say that there has never been such a highly resourced global effort to reach the end goal in this case.
    growleaves wrote: »
    ‘The lockdown is causing so many deaths’

    The comments on the vaccine from this discredited doctor (he's the 'stop taking statins' guy) are just complete bollocks. Comparing this to the effort to vaccinate against HIV is highly inappropriate, and you'd assume he'd know better.

    So yes, hoping for a vaccine or effective treatment and suppressing until that happens is our plan. We don't know that a vaccine will work. We also don't know the precise risk factors for covid 19 in younger people and we don't yet understand what the long term health effects for those who survive being severely ill might be.

    What was normal life is on hold, and for very good reasons. Wash your hands, keep your distance and wear your masks on public transport or inside enclosed spaces. Let's hope for some good news from one of these trials soon.


  • #7469
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    I don't think you know anything about me to speak with such authority.
    I have of course been at work ..but also out shopping , with a mask as necessary , on more than a few occasions , been to the hairdresser and the local for a drink and a bite , as well as out with friends and family .
    Everywhere I see people complying with the regulations , apsrt from the odd one , so I don't know where you are seeing such disregard.
    The virus is suppressed successfully, but not " dead " .

    Your language and tone is always offensive .
    Don't address me again .

    "Your language and tone is offensive", is a cop out to bury your head in the sand and refuse to address the comments about the data. Happy to not address this ignorance again.


  • #7470
    setanta1984
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 841 ✭✭✭setanta1984


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Keep them until there is a vaccine or a widely available treatment with proven efficacy. This is what 'new normal' means.

    Thanks for the couple of answers from people given to the question.

    The general consensus from the 3 or so answers is keep them indefinitely. As I had assumed, and at least seems consistent with the constant push back and attacks on any kind of pro-easing posts.

    I fundamentally disagree 100%, thinking and expecting the world to be restricted to this degree socially, economically, educationally until a completely unspecified point in the future (we can't confidently predict when a vaccine is globally widespread to even within years) is insanity in my opinion.

    But I appreciate at least that some have made it clear that's what they believe and want.


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  • #7471
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MickeyLeari wrote: »
    A non risk based quarantine (albeit advisory) is an indirect curtailment of freedom of movement. Combine this with the recent messaging from the Minister for Emigrant Education and the CMO.

    Its a choice. You can choose to travel or not. And ultimately you can choose to comply with the quarantine. They will allow travel to green countries without quarantine. The more I see about it is I believe that they are waiting to finalise that list before indicating the requirement may be removed, as if someone were to book travel to a country that ultimately does not make the green list, they may have a claim for costs or lost wages due to unclear guidance.


This discussion has been closed.
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