M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

View · 30-06-2020 3:32pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Show us a country with higher usage than Netherlands... They have around 25% usage while having a huge culture in cycling and far more accommodating weather. It rains a lot more in Galway than in Netherlands, it is also way flatter thus making it easier to cycle... Netherlands has 22,000 km of bicycle lanes, have we got even a fifth of that?
And it is not cheap:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cost-of-2-7km-dublin-cycle-path-jumps-to-20m-1.3807307

So the original cost had it at over €2.59 per km...

So 20% looks highly optimistic...

And I forgot to talk about Galway being low density compared to these cities as well...

The Dutch did not start out with wonderful cycle infrastructure. Pictures of Dutch cities from the 60s show traffic congestion, pollution etc. which were just as bad as city centre Dublin.The difference is, though, that after enormous political difficulty, the Dutch set that entire “more traffic, increased congestion” model into reverse whereas we persisted with it.

At this stage in my life, I am old enough to remember discussions when the success of the Dutch model was first reported on here. Everyone agreed it would be wonderful if we had that system here as an option to use BUT, as we didn’t have it already in place, there was no point in trying to emulate it at the stage we were at back then. So, by default, in the intervening years, we largely didn’t do the work to put in cycle lanes etc with the result that, as it wasn’t safe to cycle, people hopped in their cars more and more and congestion increased as a result.

We have basically planned for congestion, by default, as we didn’t plan for any alternatives.

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 3:33pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I never mentioned the M50 in the post you quoted.

I have not suggested that the M50 not be upgraded, nor that the N7 not be upgraded. Besides it has nothing to do with Galway. You must be confusing me with another poster.

The roundabouts are a significant cause of congestion, such that some have reverted back to junctions. Particularly on Bothar na dTreabh, those junctions should have been free flow, and that road should have a bus lane on the whole of it, with buses on it providing a realistic service.

Sam,

How about a HOV lane... Actually make all the Bus lanes HOV lanes until a time the Busses are there to meet demand...

HOV (High Occupancy Vehicles 3+) would highly encourage car pooling even for a relatively short journey. Release them for off peak times...

Now you can increase the HOV lanes with less resistance...

Sam Russell · 30-06-2020 3:36pm

Carol25 wrote: »

"The M50 was built as a solution to Dublin's traffic problems when it was built. It was jammers after a few years so was widened to solve the traffic problem. It is now jammers.

The N7 was widened from Naas to the M50 to solve the traffic problem. It is now jammers morning and night. It did not solve the traffic problem - it just made it worse."

This is what Sam Russell said re M50 and N7 construction and upgrade works a few pages back on this thread, you can draw your own conclusions. He also points out in his current post - Dublin isn't relevant to Galway. So suddenly when an example used doesn't suit the argument, it's not relevant...sure.

You are correct - Dublin is not relevant to Galway.

1. The M50 was not built as a single project. It was built piecemeal and was not designed in one go either. It originally went from the M1 across the (conveniently built) privately owned West Link toll bridge and went to the N4, and then extended onto the N7. The M50 was never built as a single solution. That West ink bridge cost £ir10 million to build and cost the state €500 million to buy it out in 2008. All the tolls collected over the years that went to the private company - since 1990 until 2008.

2. The Galway bypass is perhaps the fifth or sixth attempt to solve the traffic problems. The M17 did not solve it - just look at the Coolagh roundabout. Bothar na dTreadbh did not solve it. The mess at Terryland and the Galway Shopping Centre did not solve it. The QCB did not solve it. The Western Distributor Rd did not solve it. The Moneenageish roundabout did not solve it, nor did putting it back as junction solve it. The Monivea Rd did not solve it.
And so on.

3. They tried to put bus lanes in like the one in Renmore or the Tuam Rd but forgot to try putting a few buses down it. That did not solve it either.

So now they have a €600 million bypass that will solve it.

Yeah - good luck with that.

[I am trying to find out what happened to the big crane they got a decade or so ago to unload all those containers in the docks but cannot find anything. Has any one got any ideas on it?].

Sam Russell · 30-06-2020 3:40pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Sam,

How about a HOV lane... Actually make all the Bus lanes HOV lanes until a time the Busses are there to meet demand...

HOV (High Occupancy Vehicles 3+) would highly encourage car pooling even for a relatively short journey. Release them for off peak times...

Now you can increase the HOV lanes with less resistance...

Could not be policed in Ireland.

We cannot even police mobile phone use, - NCTs nor insurance, nor Motor Tax. Drink/drug driving is very hard to police.

There are dummies that would drive cars down the HOV lane with dummies in the car (besides themselves).

Just not possible. The only HOV that should use the bus lane is a bus.

Sam Russell · 30-06-2020 3:48pm

Mod: This thread is about the Galway Ring Road.

So the M50 is not rlevant so please confine your discussion the the traffic problems of Galway and its hinterland.

Thank you.

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 4:07pm

View wrote: »

Discussion on the bypass has been going on for the better part of twenty years and none of it has been built yet. We could have built an extensive public transport, segregated cycle lanes and busways in that time and probably for less money had it been built over the intervening years.

There has been applications and objections... There would be many objectors to Bus and Cycle lanes too...

Where is the Public Transport... They are not using the Bus lanes they have today which were created at big expense and time... Westside Bus lane is empty, it is one of the most under utilised piece of transport in the city at great cost... Cycle lanes are expensive and effectively carry less people in Galway than roads... Both might be capable of carrying more but they don't...

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 4:15pm

View wrote: »

The Dutch did not start out with wonderful cycle infrastructure. Pictures of Dutch cities from the 60s show traffic congestion, pollution etc. which were just as bad as city centre Dublin.The difference is, though, that after enormous political difficulty, the Dutch set that entire “more traffic, increased congestion” model into reverse whereas we persisted with it.

At this stage in my life, I am old enough to remember discussions when the success of the Dutch model was first reported on here. Everyone agreed it would be wonderful if we had that system here as an option to use BUT, as we didn’t have it already in place, there was no point in trying to emulate it at the stage we were at back then. So, by default, in the intervening years, we largely didn’t do the work to put in cycle lanes etc with the result that, as it wasn’t safe to cycle, people hopped in their cars more and more and congestion increased as a result.

We have basically planned for congestion, by default, as we didn’t plan for any alternatives.

Sorry but I have lived in Amsterdam and the have a very dedicated cycle network that was built mainly in the late 1800s...
"Cycling became popular in the Netherlands a little later than it did in the United States and Britain who experienced their bike booms in the 1880s, but by the 1890s the Dutch were already building dedicated paths for cyclists"

So it will cost the cost of a motorway to get at least parity with the infrastructure. Then there is the

Lack of Cycle Culture
Climate (Netherland lot drier)
Hills (Netherlands is flat)

Can you give us a price on 22,000km of cycle lanes?

30-06-2020 4:27pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Sorry but I have lived in Amsterdam and the have a very dedicated cycle network that was built mainly in the late 1800s...
"Cycling became popular in the Netherlands a little later than it did in the United States and Britain who experienced their bike booms in the 1880s, but by the 1890s the Dutch were already building dedicated paths for cyclists"

Umm, please do some research. Seriously, you are wayyyy off base

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 4:27pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could not be policed in Ireland.

We cannot even police mobile phone use, - NCTs nor insurance, nor Motor Tax. Drink/drug driving is very hard to police.

There are dummies that would drive cars down the HOV lane with dummies in the car (besides themselves).

Just not possible. The only HOV that should use the bus lane is a bus.

So you worry about the policing of it...

This has worked many times abroad and can be simplified by displaying a HOV sign in the car...

We have Bus lanes used by taxis... It just takes a decent fine and name in paper, that will stop them...

As for the mannequins... That fools no one...

Well placed cameras can also do a job and there is probably a AI software that can spot cars which are breaking...

But the advantages are pretty high... Now more HOV lanes can be allocated, there could even take a a lane on one of the bridges and have a dedicated lane across the city for 4-5 hours a day...
Now you could have the space to get a proper bus network... Thats why I say review each year...

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 4:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Umm, please do some research. Seriously, you are wayyyy off base

https://roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/netherlands/

In the Netherlands the same realisation came in the mid-1970s. According to the Dutch Bicycle Master Plan of 1999, “From 1950 to 1975, the bicycle was almost entirely excluded from the government’s vision"

Dutch have had cycle paths going way back... I have lived there, they have paths which are simly not big enough for cars which have been there a long time..

cgcsb · 30-06-2020 4:59pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Key PT goals for Galway that I can see
City Centre cycleways

Cycle links from West side to east side

Busconnects fully implemented and whatever QBCs are identified implemented

Commuter rail upgrade and additional stations from at least Oranmore, out to Athenry ideally

Look at feasibility of a Gluas/Galway Rapid Transit system from the West to East

A fair chunk of them could be looked at concurrently with the planning of the ring road without killing that project, but I think there's a fear that they may be successful enough to lower the AADT to the point the ring road isn't justified any more, so they don't want to move on PT projects.

You've just hit the nail squarely on the head. If say about 10% of the road budget, €60m, were spent on bus corridors, cycle ways bus priority and an expanded bus fleet, journeys across Galway would be reliably fast and the case for a ring road would fall completely apart.

cgcsb · 30-06-2020 5:10pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Show us a country with higher usage than Netherlands... They have around 25% usage while having a huge culture in cycling and far more accommodating weather. It rains a lot more in Galway than in Netherlands, it is also way flatter thus making it easier to cycle... Netherlands has 22,000 km of bicycle lanes, have we got even a fifth of that?
And it is not cheap:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cost-of-2-7km-dublin-cycle-path-jumps-to-20m-1.3807307

So the original cost had it at over €2.59 per km...

So 20% looks highly optimistic...

And I forgot to talk about Galway being low density compared to these cities as well...

Not sure if you're being obtuse or if you genuinely haven't a breeze what you're talking about.

The Netherlands is an entire country. Galway is a City (town depending on definition) Cities have more cycling as a commuter mode than entire countries for obvious reasons generally speaking. You are comparing apples and oranges.

cgcsb · 30-06-2020 5:13pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Problem is the buses will get the roads but they won't have the buses to use them. They won't be on time. Sorry we fell for this scam once too often...

If we're talking about blowing €600mil on a road, there is enough budget to buy more buses. The reason buses are delayed is traffic, remove the traffic = no delays.

Sam Russell · 30-06-2020 5:19pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If we're talking about bowing €600mil on a road, there is enough budget to buy more buses. The reason buses are delayed is traffic, remove the traffic = no delays.

1% of the €600 million would buy 20 buses (ono) which would provide a significant number to provide a service for Galway if it had a network of bus lanes and bus priority routes.

SeanW · 30-06-2020 5:55pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Problem is the buses will get the roads but they won't have the buses to use them. They won't be on time. Sorry we fell for this scam once too often...

Brest has traffic problems just as bad as Galway... I agree with you that the bypass should be further out but at this stage we need to get it going and I am willing to compromise..

But Brest does have a bypass, the D67 is an East-West route that avoids the city completely.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/48.3595113,-4.7518777/48.4440152,-4.4572066/@48.4150295,-4.6025633,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

Let's be clear - what is being sought here for Galway is something that is - as far as anyone can prove - more or less unprecedented. In Europe, even small cities on the road to not much of anything are typically bypassed or have alternative routes around them that do not involve putting through travelers onto city streets. If the Galway bypass is cancelled, it will be (so far as I can tell) unusual if not unique in this regard.

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 6:33pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Not sure if you're being obtuse or if you genuinely haven't a breeze what you're talking about.

The Netherlands is an entire country. Galway is a City (town depending on definition) Cities have more cycling as a commuter mode than entire countries for obvious reasons generally speaking. You are comparing apples and oranges.

What I am pointing out is trying to point out is Netherlands flattest and pretty dry countries in Europe and has a Cyclist rate at 25%...
They have way more infrastructure, the culture of cycling is there...

What is the target for cycling in Galway and show us a realistic plan that can achieve that number...

What I am seeing here is just punish drivers.... There is nothing in place... Galway has two bus lanes in Westside and Renmore and neither carry as many people as the car lane...

I offered a way of hybirding these lanes with HOV usage but lack of compromise is obvious... Have you got a financially viable bus system that can carry more than cars?
How many buses will be running per hour, how may in rush hour, how are they paid for in off peak times...

I am asking for realistic projections not pie in the sky ideas...

No Bus Connect corridor until we know the routes, frequency and financial viability plan...
Sorry we fell for this one before in Westside, we need the end result this time before this starts...

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 6:47pm

SeanW wrote: »

But Brest does have a bypass, the D67 is an East-West route that avoids the city completely.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/48.3595113,-4.7518777/48.4440152,-4.4572066/@48.4150295,-4.6025633,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

Let's be clear - what is being sought here for Galway is something that is - as far as anyone can prove - more or less unprecedented. In Europe, even small cities on the road to not much of anything are typically bypassed or have alternative routes around them that do not involve putting through travelers onto city streets. If the Galway bypass is cancelled, it will be (so far as I can tell) unusual if not unique in this regard.

I am in total agreement with you...

I personally think ours is too close in and would prefer it out more, but will take what we can get...

I think the naysayers argument is that there is little traffic between Connemara and Rest of Ireland and that we don't need it...

My view is the city needs it to breath. These bypasses are used to move around the city and further on... I have a number of friends who work in Tuam, Loughrea, Athlone and live in Knocknacarra and visa versa... A number of people living in those towns working in University or Hospital...

That is why I am asking for there projections with costs around Cycling and Public transport... Galway not that big and our climate and culture is closer to Inverness than Central Europe city...

30-06-2020 6:59pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

What I am pointing out is trying to point out is Netherlands flattest and pretty dry countries in Europe

Actually its got very similar weather to Galway

CowboyTed wrote: »

and has a Cyclist rate at 25%...
They have way more infrastructure, the culture of cycling is there...

It was transformed due to multiple road deaths of cyclists which led to mass demonstrations which demanded lower priority for private cars, increased investment in cycling infrastructure and continued investment which has been going on since the mid 70's

CowboyTed wrote: »

What is the target for cycling in Galway and show us a realistic plan that can achieve that number...

See the GTS

30-06-2020 7:02pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Galway not that big .

Correct, its possible to cycle from one end to the other in 35-40 mins

No ring road needed, just change up the priority of road users

Carol25 · 30-06-2020 7:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually its got very similar weather to Galway
<snip>
It was transformed due to multiple road deaths of cyclists which led to mass demonstrations which demanded lower priority for private cars, increased investment in cycling infrastructure and continued investment which has been going on since the mid 70's
<snip>
See the GTS

If the M50 isn't relevant to this thread, neither are these pictures and comparisons of Amsterdam. How is this not pulled up on also?

Carol25 · 30-06-2020 7:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

1% of the €600 million would buy 20 buses (ono) which would provide a significant number to provide a service for Galway if it had a network of bus lanes and bus priority routes.

You can't have a network of bus priority routes with no room for them on the current roads, no outer ring road, no capacity, no space. I'll keep saying until I'm blue in the face as it's simply a fact of Galway city. Narrow streets, poor road capacity, not enough bridges across the Corrib and poor infrastructure in general.

mcbert · 30-06-2020 7:51pm

Instead of the same old arguments on both sides, over and over again, are there any update on what IS happening now since Covid? What about the public hearing? How did that go?

cgcsb · 30-06-2020 7:54pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

What I am pointing out is trying to point out is Netherlands flattest and pretty dry countries in Europe and has a Cyclist rate at 25%...
They have way more infrastructure, the culture of cycling is there...

What is the target for cycling in Galway and show us a realistic plan that can achieve that number...

An utterly daft comparison. Galway is a town, the Netherlands is a country, no point comparing the two. Compare Galway to Amsterdam or copenhagen where half of commutes are by bike. I don't think there is an official target for modal share in Galway because there are no serious transport goals for Galway at the moment.

CowboyTed wrote: »

What I am seeing here is just punish drivers.... There is nothing in place... Galway has two bus lanes in Westside and Renmore and neither carry as many people as the car lane...

Can you present the traffic count data for this claim? It doesn't matter really since virtually no money has been spent on public transport anyway so providing 2 scrappy bits of bus lane in a city with an utterly disfunctional transport system isn't going to reveal much.

CowboyTed wrote: »

I offered a way of hybirding these lanes with HOV usage but lack of compromise is obvious...

Unworkable and illogical in Europe.

CowboyTed wrote: »

Have you got a financially viable bus system that can carry more than cars?
How many buses will be running per hour, how may in rush hour, how are they paid for in off peak times...

What is a 'financially viable' bus system? buses in Dublin for example carry more people than cars if that's what you mean. We haven't seen bus connects yet but I'd imagine the main routes would have 10-15 minute frequency. They'd be paid for in off peak times the same way they are paid for at all times, i.e. through the NTA contracts. I'm starting to think you don't actually understand this topic.

CowboyTed wrote: »

I am asking for realistic projections not pie in the sky ideas...

No Bus Connect corridor until we know the routes, frequency and financial viability plan...
Sorry we fell for this one before in Westside, we need the end result this time before this starts...

I'm sure the new government will run a public consultation. The Galway transport strategy can give you a flavour:
https://www.galwaycity.ie/galway-transport-strategy

cgcsb · 30-06-2020 7:56pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

.. I have a number of friends who work in Tuam, Loughrea, Athlone and live in Knocknacarra and visa versa... A number of people living in those towns working in University or Hospital...

:rolleyes:

30-06-2020 8:07pm

Carol25 wrote: »

You can't have a network of bus priority routes with no room for them on the current roads, no outer ring road, no capacity, no space. I'll keep saying until I'm blue in the face as it's simply a fact of Galway city. Narrow streets, poor road capacity, not enough bridges across the Corrib and poor infrastructure in general.

Yes you can and its happening in Galway

The Salmon Weird bridge is getting a pedestrian/cycle bridge put in alongside. Once thats done, the Salmon Weir Bridge will be restricted to buses, cyclists, pedestrians and taxis only. There will not be through traffic.

As they implement that theey will also be stopping private cars going down Eglinton Street and around the square, again restricting to only pedestrians, cyclists, buses and taxis.

See here further info

Note, this will be happening prior to any ring road and will further restrict the movement of private cars in the city

30-06-2020 8:08pm

mcbert wrote: »

Instead of the same old arguments on both sides, over and over again, are there any update on what IS happening now since Covid? What about the public hearing? How did that go?

The public hearing was cut short, to be resumed at a later date as yet unknown

mcbert · 30-06-2020 8:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The public hearing was cut short, to be resumed at a later date as yet unknown

Thanks. Has there been any public comment by anyone involved in any way on the project? Or are we cometely in the dark on if/when/what happens next?

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 8:26pm

Galway
The city receives an average of 1,156 mm (45.51 in) of precipitation annually, which is evenly distributed throughout the year.

Amsterdam
Amsterdam's average annual precipitation is 838 millimetres

So that 75% less to start...

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/netherlands/amsterdam/climate
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/ireland/galway/climate

As you can see they have larger summer rainfall, this is generally thunder showers which dumps large amounts in short space of time...

Amsterdam is considerably drier...

30-06-2020 8:31pm

mcbert wrote: »

Thanks. Has there been any public comment by anyone involved in any way on the project? Or are we cometely in the dark on if/when/what happens next?

No, no comments. There's not much to say about the project for them until ABP make a decision and that won't happen until the hearings are completed and they've had time to go through everything in detail. Don't expect an answer until 2021 would be my guess

Sam Russell · 30-06-2020 8:36pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Galway
The city receives an average of 1,156 mm (45.51 in) of precipitation annually, which is evenly distributed throughout the year.

Amsterdam
Amsterdam's average annual precipitation is 838 millimetres

So that 75% less to start...

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/netherlands/amsterdam/climate
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/ireland/galway/climate

As you can see they have larger summer rainfall, this is generally thunder showers which dumps large amounts in short space of time...

Amsterdam is considerably drier...

It is 28% less, not 75%.

In Galway, if you can see he Burren, it is going to rain. If you cannot see the Burren, it is raining.

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 9:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

An utterly daft comparison. Galway is a town, the Netherlands is a country, no point comparing the two. Compare Galway to Amsterdam or copenhagen where half of commutes are by bike. I don't think there is an official target for modal share in Galway because there are no serious transport goals for Galway at the moment.

Can you present the traffic count data for this claim? It doesn't matter really since virtually no money has been spent on public transport anyway so providing 2 scrappy bits of bus lane in a city with an utterly disfunctional transport system isn't going to reveal much.

Unworkable and illogical in Europe.

What is a 'financially viable' bus system? buses in Dublin for example carry more people than cars if that's what you mean. We haven't seen bus connects yet but I'd imagine the main routes would have 10-15 minute frequency. They'd be paid for in off peak times the same way they are paid for at all times, i.e. through the NTA contracts. I'm starting to think you don't actually understand this topic.

I'm sure the new government will run a public consultation. The Galway transport strategy can give you a flavour:
https://www.galwaycity.ie/galway-transport-strategy

I do understand the topic and the bus service has been this ways for years... We have had promise after promise... Sorry I want to see more than a power point...

Westside and Renmore cost a fair bit of money and disruption and offer no relief to congestion... So how about we see all the public transport exceptions before we start banning cars...

HOV is easy to police with today's technology... Make easy and tell them to display a sign with HOV on it...

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 9:48pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Can you present the traffic count data for this claim? It doesn't matter really since virtually no money has been spent on public transport anyway so providing 2 scrappy bits of bus lane in a city with an utterly disfunctional transport system isn't going to reveal much.

Lets remember that I have not to spend money on PT but said that you need to get a bypass...

Get that and then we have the space to implement a different way...

Cycling is not going to suddenly jump 4 times... by the way 20% was the target in 2009 Transport plan. I remeber reading it in 2014 in the Bunch of Grapes, everyone just laughed... An unrealistic plan is no plan...

So we need more than aspiration like we got the last time...

30-06-2020 9:55pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

I do understand the topic and the bus service has been this ways for years... We have had promise after promise... Sorry I want to see more than a power point...

Westside and Renmore cost a fair bit of money and disruption and offer no relief to congestion... So how about we see all the public transport exceptions before we start banning cars...

HOV is easy to police with today's technology... Make easy and tell them to display a sign with HOV on it...

HOV is never going to happen, not even an option, so forget about it or make a proposal to the NTA and let us know how you get on, otherwise no point talking about it.

As for the bus lanes, the provision of the Renmore lane was instrumental in BE rolling out a high frequency service to Doughiska, which is now one of their highest frequency, most used and most profitable routes.

BE also stated in the past that they would happily increase frequency in galway city on multiple routes but without the provision of bus priority infrastructure, there was no point as things would just get bogged down where the buses meet traffic.

Bus growth in Galway to slow down due to lack of priority lanes
https://connachttribune.ie/bus-growth-in-galway-to-slow-down-due-to-lack-of-priority-lanes-409/

Only 10% of Galway City’s roads are dedicated bus lanes, which is causing a “serious deterioration” in Bus Éireann’s ability to fulfil its timetables.

Regional Manager Brian Connolly said that the company had become a victim of its own success – it was now increasingly unable to meet a growing demand, as the necessary infrastructure is not being provided.

“There are constant improvements coming into the network but, without priority measures, we are in danger of just having an increased level of resources caught up in the same traffic,” he said.

The Galway City bus network received a major overhaul in 2012 which, the figures show, has been a significant success story.

“Passenger journeys are up 50% which, in public transport terms, is a massive improvement in such a short space of time. Here in Galway City, we have the most efficient, punctual and effective city network in the country. So much so, that Dublin Bus were asked by the NTA (National Transport Authority) to come down and talk to us, to see what we were doing right.”

Mr Connolly says that the Doughiska route, which goes from Eyre Square to Parkmore, is the most successful one in the city – for a very obvious reason.

“One of the critical elements of this service is the level of bus priority on that route, particularly on the Dublin Road – we have bus lanes in and out bound, to the extent that it covers 25% of that route.

“Also, on the 405 Rahoon to Eyre Square and out to Ballybane, the Seamus Quirke Road has significant priority measures. That’s where we are seeing significant growth, so it just goes to demonstrate that when the priority measures are put in place, it improves the reliability, and punctuality. People are more or less guaranteed journey times, and that increases usage, which has been the recipe for success.”

However, the growth is being stifled by the lack of infrastructure, he added.

“The Bus Éireann network in Galway has only 10% bus lanes throughout the whole city, the other side of that is that on 90% of the network we are sharing the same road space as all of the other traffic. As congestion has worsened over the past six to 12 months, we are finding it increasingly difficult to achieve our timetables.

“We have to give over a little bit of road space to public transport, that’s not going to be agreeable to everyone involved, but if we want to ensure that the city moves more freely, and more people are using public transport, those are the sacrifices that have to be made.”

He said that the one-way traffic flow along Lough Atalia/College Road, which was in operation while works on lowering the road under the railway bridge were taking place, had proved to be “one of most significant improvements” for all bus operators coming in and out of the city.

“It was something that worked very well from our point of view, and is something that is being considered in the transport strategy, and we would be encouraging to continue with.”

In the medium term, Bus Éireann hopes that the ‘Luas on wheels’ or BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) will become a reality for the city, while it grows to a position where light rail will be a viable option.

The ‘bendy buses’ are a regular feature in European cities, and they are something that Bus Éireann has been looking at for over 10 years.

“Each stop should become a mini station. The vehicle itself can resemble a Luas, except it’s on tyres.

“If people still want to go for a light rail solution after that, at least you have proven the concept at a fraction of the cost to invest in light rail.

“You know it works, and then you can make a judgement whether or not to make that investment.”

As for asking for evidence before doing anything, just hope on a bus in Galway and see the difference in progress on a bus lane compared to a stretch with no bus lane.

CowboyTed · 30-06-2020 10:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

HOV is never going to happen, not even an option, so forget about it or make a proposal to the NTA and let us know how you get on, otherwise no point talking about it.

As for the bus lanes, the provision of the Renmore lane was instrumental in BE rolling out a high frequency service to Doughiska, which is now one of their highest frequency, most used and most profitable routes.

BE also stated in the past that they would happily increase frequency in galway city on multiple routes but without the provision of bus priority infrastructure, there was no point as things would just get bogged down where the buses meet traffic.

As for asking for evidence before doing anything, just hope on a bus in Galway and see the difference in progress on a bus lane compared to a stretch with no bus lane.

I am for more bus lanes but we lack bridge space to go across the river.

I am even for trying bendy buses...

Nobody has given a real reason HOV can't work... Taxis are allowed to use Bus lanes already... HOV is even more economical of space. I am not saying it it the solution but it is a lot more cost effective than GLUAS which I don't see the benefit over buses and bus lanes...

The City has 4 times as many cars than when the last bridge was built... An outer pass of the city would free up space for buses and bus lanes...

I am saying we have both and PT and outer pass solutions... How can we expect all traffic to go through town...

Yes work on reducing car traffic over time but are we there... There was a plan in 2008 (i think) that said we would have 20% cycling we were about 4.5% at the time... We are now 5-6%...

They are now talking again about 20%... Is this anyway realistic or idealistic... We can't sufficiently increase the cycling numbers and PT numbers until we find space in our traffic...

Galway needs a ring road to give us that space... Then we have the space and ability to try things at the moment we don't as we are alway at 110% capacity..

cgcsb · 01-07-2020 7:38am

CowboyTed wrote: »

Galway
The city receives an average of 1,156 mm (45.51 in) of precipitation annually, which is evenly distributed throughout the year.

Amsterdam
Amsterdam's average annual precipitation is 838 millimetres

So that 75% less to start...

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/netherlands/amsterdam/climate
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/ireland/galway/climate

As you can see they have larger summer rainfall, this is generally thunder showers which dumps large amounts in short space of time...

Amsterdam is considerably drier...

Are you actually serious?

Sam Russell · 01-07-2020 11:05am

Mod: Can I remind posters that commenting on Mod instructions on thread is against the charter and will result is a sanction, and the posts will be deleted.

If you have a problem with a Mod instruction or any aspect of moderation, the use the report function or send a PM to one or other of the Mods.

While mods do post on threads, they do so as posters and their posts represent their own views.

However, Mods are unbiased in their moderation, and do not try to stifle discussion - rather the reverse. When the discussion goes off topic, it must be restrained otherwise every thread would be about everything under the sun.

Posts have been deleted.

Regards.

01-07-2020 11:34am

CowboyTed wrote: »

Nobody has given a real reason HOV can't work... Taxis are allowed to use Bus lanes already... HOV is even more economical of space. I am not saying it it the solution but it is a lot more cost effective than GLUAS which I don't see the benefit over buses and bus lanes...

HOV is not being considered by anyone at a local or national level as a potential solution for anything, anywhere, therefore its, as I mentioned before, not worth discussing as its never going to happen, end of.

As for gluas, we'll all be dead and buried before that ever happens

The ring road is also many years away.

Bus lanes and segregated cycling infrastructure are a lot faster and cheaper to implement

riddlinrussell · 01-07-2020 11:40am

Deleted User wrote: »

HOV is not being considered by anyone at a local or national level as a potential solution for anything, anywhere, therefore its, as I mentioned before, not worth discussing as its never going to happen, end of.

As for gluas, we'll all be dead and buried before that ever happens

The ring road is also many years away.

Bus lanes and segregated cycling infrastructure are a lot faster and cheaper to implement

If Bus lanes, more buses and segregated cycling infra aren't well implemented in Galway over the lifetime of this government I think it would be a disgrace, and would prove my previous contention that they are shy to do it for fear of 'losing' their bypass to less congestion.

Regarding HOV, I'm not aware of any European country doing this, our policy makers are far more influenced by European and UK principles so are unlikely to go for it.

The reason its not relevant to Galway is simply that to get it implemented isn't just a case of 'convincing Galway Council' or 'convincing TII', it would require nationwide legislation to be put in place to allow for it, and you would have to convince basically every planner at TII/NTA/GCC that HOV is a solution, because I'm fairly certain that very few to none of them will think so.

CowboyTed · 01-07-2020 2:45pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Are you actually serious?

Lived there for over a year and a lot of the rain in the summer are more like thunderstorms... Amsterdam is considerably warmer in the summer, balmy...

Definitely not as windy and no hills and loads of cycle lanes...

riddlinrussell · 01-07-2020 3:20pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Lived there for over a year and a lot of the rain in the summer are more like thunderstorms... Amsterdam is considerably warmer in the summer, balmy...

Definitely not as windy and no hills and loads of cycle lanes...

You repeatedly have trotted out the 25% of Modal share is Bikes in the Netherlands statistic, but then shift to 20% for Galway city being mad. If the weather isnt as nice in Galway then yeah maybe it wont get as many people cycling as Amsterdam, but as has been pointed out, Amsterdam has about 50% modal share for Bicycles, not 25%. So why is it so crazy to aim for 2/5ths of Amsterdams modal share?

Are you suggesting that the weather in Galway is more than twice as terrible as in Amsterdam?

Given how much cheaper cycling infra is when compared to major roads projects, I don't see why Galway shouldn't avail of a chunk of the €160 million available for cycleways this year and see what happens?

By my calculations (if we go by per capita spend) Galway City is entitled to €2,290,525 of that money each year for cycleway projects. Obviously it will depend on political willingness and 'shovel readiness', but given the clear demarcated sum available to the country, I think if Galway hasn't spent close to 9-10 million on cycling and walking provision within the next 5 years they are doing their population a grave disservice

CowboyTed · 01-07-2020 5:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

HOV is not being considered by anyone at a local or national level as a potential solution for anything, anywhere, therefore its, as I mentioned before, not worth discussing as its never going to happen, end of.

As for gluas, we'll all be dead and buried before that ever happens

The ring road is also many years away.

Bus lanes and segregated cycling infrastructure are a lot faster and cheaper to implement

How long did Westside bus lane take to build? It was not that fast...

The bypass is due to be completed by 2025 and to be opened in stages before that...

That is due to start next year... As that road goes in we definitely should be looking at Bus Lanes... we can have the planning now and commercial viability...

01-07-2020 5:39pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

The bypass is due to be completed by 2025 and to be opened in stages before that...

There is not a chance of that being open before 2030 (if it happens) and as for opening in stages, where did you hear that? Honestly curious

CowboyTed wrote: »

As that road goes in we definitely should be looking at Bus Lanes... we can have the planning now and commercial viability...

Commercial viability of what?

CowboyTed · 01-07-2020 5:47pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

You repeatedly have trotted out the 25% of Modal share is Bikes in the Netherlands statistic, but then shift to 20% for Galway city being mad. If the weather isnt as nice in Galway then yeah maybe it wont get as many people cycling as Amsterdam, but as has been pointed out, Amsterdam has about 50% modal share for Bicycles, not 25%. So why is it so crazy to aim for 2/5ths of Amsterdams modal share?

Are you suggesting that the weather in Galway is more than twice as terrible as in Amsterdam?

Given how much cheaper cycling infra is when compared to major roads projects, I don't see why Galway shouldn't avail of a chunk of the €160 million available for cycleways this year and see what happens?

By my calculations (if we go by per capita spend) Galway City is entitled to €2,290,525 of that money each year for cycleway projects. Obviously it will depend on political willingness and 'shovel readiness', but given the clear demarcated sum available to the country, I think if Galway hasn't spent close to 9-10 million on cycling and walking provision within the next 5 years they are doing their population a grave disservice

Netherlands has 25%
Amsterdam is about 38%(not 50%)...

Amsterdam is a major city with with very high density three times Galway...

The issue I have is this target was set before... What has changed this time instead of us getting a 2% increase in 10 years but get 4 fold increase...

So what is going to make that 4 times apart from just making driving so crap that some people resort to cycling... That is not increasing quality of life, but making it so bad that people do what you want...

By the way I posted earlier a cycle way in Dublin that budgeted at €2.7m per Km... It ended up 3 times that...

So what is the realistic target for cycling?

01-07-2020 5:55pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Netherlands has 25%
Amsterdam is about 38%(not 50%)...

Amsterdam is a major city with with very high density three times Galway...

The issue I have is this target was set before... What has changed this time instead of us getting a 2% increase in 10 years but get 4 fold increase...

So what is going to make that 4 times apart from just making driving so crap that some people resort to cycling... That is not increasing quality of life, but making it so bad that people do what you want...

By the way I posted earlier a cycle way in Dublin that budgeted at €2.7m per Km... It ended up 3 times that...

So what is the realistic target for cycling?

I'm struggling to see what you are trying to say justifys spending half a billion on a ring road because it clearly doesnt provide any justification whatsoever

CowboyTed · 01-07-2020 5:59pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

If Bus lanes, more buses and segregated cycling infra aren't well implemented in Galway over the lifetime of this government I think it would be a disgrace, and would prove my previous contention that they are shy to do it for fear of 'losing' their bypass to less congestion.

Regarding HOV, I'm not aware of any European country doing this, our policy makers are far more influenced by European and UK principles so are unlikely to go for it.

The reason its not relevant to Galway is simply that to get it implemented isn't just a case of 'convincing Galway Council' or 'convincing TII', it would require nationwide legislation to be put in place to allow for it, and you would have to convince basically every planner at TII/NTA/GCC that HOV is a solution, because I'm fairly certain that very few to none of them will think so.

Cycling despite kms of bike lanes built is at a rate of 5%.... How can the expenditure be justified if they can't even give a realistic target?

Galway is a low density city, I am just asking for some actual proof. Bypasses have been proven solutions and I can point to multiple cities & Towns that enjoyed the freeing up a by pass gives the city/town center...

With that in place then the space can be created to implement other transport methods whichj increase the quality of the people of Galway...

01-07-2020 6:05pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Cycling despite kms of bike lanes built is at a rate of 5%.... How can the expenditure be justified if they can't even give a realistic target?

Galway is a low density city, I am just asking for some actual proof. Bypasses have been proven solutions and I can point to multiple cities & Towns that enjoyed the freeing up a by pass gives the city/town center...

With that in place then the space can be created to implement other transport methods whichj increase the quality of the people of Galway...

So what do we do in the meantime? Sit on our collective hands hoping that ABP gives the go-ahead and we get a shiny new road in a decade?

What happens if they say no (which is a possibility)?

CowboyTed · 01-07-2020 6:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm struggling to see what you are trying to say justifys spending half a billion on a ring road because it clearly doesnt provide any justification whatsoever

By passes have freed up towns and cities around Ireland...

Ask Athlone do they want traffic going through the town again..
Limerick Ditto...

Inverness is a classic example of a City very close to galway in size ad population density twice Galway and they are bypassed....
Brest is a bad example when comparing to Galway, it has 3 times the population density and double the population and has traffic problems about the same as Galway as well...

I think a bypass gives the space to actually do the things like PT corridors ad Cycle lanes...

CowboyTed · 01-07-2020 6:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So what do we do in the meantime? Sit on our collective hands hoping that ABP gives the go-ahead and we get a shiny new road in a decade?

What happens if they say no (which is a possibility)?

It is due in 2025 completed with sections opening in between.
Then we can have a plan B... But how much roadworks do you think the city can have going on at one time?

01-07-2020 6:17pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

It is due in 2025 completed with sections opening in between.
Then we can have a plan B... But how much roadworks do you think the city can have going on at one time?

2025....I love your optimism

Again, I'll ask, where are you getting that sections will be opening in between. Not saying its not happening, just haven't seen it anywhere so I'm wondering where you are getting this from

As for waiting, you do know Galway is going to lose the Salmon Weir bridge, Eglinton Street and most of Eyre Sq to private traffic from 2022 right?

Thankfully, GaCiCo are moving ahead albeit slowly, with further roll out of cycling, walking and bus infrastructure

CowboyTed · 01-07-2020 6:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There is not a chance of that being open before 2030 (if it happens) and as for opening in stages, where did you hear that? Honestly curious

Commercial viability of what?

https://connachttribune.ie/galway-city-ring-road-could-open-in-stages-300/

2025....

It depend if the Greens try and stop it but they are basing there figures on Hocus Pocus like 20% Cycling...

Commercial Viability of a Bus Service...

If you want Bus Lanes give us details with evidence How
Long the Journey will take

Many it will carry
Much it will Cost
Frequency
Does it need to be subsidised

There is a lot of talk about how much roads cost... Motorist pay motor tax & others...

Where are these figures, Westside bus lane is empty and even in rush hour does carry anywhere as close to what the car lane carries...

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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