M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

riddlinrussell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

A great speech that sums up the issues at hand here, Induced demand is a well established phenomenon at this stage. Also with recent court defeats on environmental grounds, and environmental legislation only getting stronger, they may be forced anyway into enacting the 'greener' solutions before road building happens, while that might be frustrating, I think its the right way to do things, far too long has this country looked to roads to fix all its issues and all its gotten is more and more congestion.

They are already moving forward with
- closing the Salmon weir bridge to private vehicles (only buses, cyclists, taxis and pedestrians
- Eglinton st, Francis st, Eyre Square, etc the same all as part of the bus priority corridor through the city centre
- Dublin rd bus lanes both ways, protected cycling infrastructure (designs just released)
-Tuam Rd the same and I think (not sure) this infrastructure will go as far as Claregalway, at least that's what I was told, no designs released yet

Early on I was a die hard ring road supporter above all else, then switched to ring road plus everything else but not until after the ring road opens, now I'm 100% in the anti ring road camp as I honestly believe Galway and its citizens will be better off without it

riddlinrussell

I'm not even 'anti-ring road' I just think it needs to be made clear to Galway Council that

a) its not going to be the Panacea they think it is
b) they can't have it until they make an actual good go of fixing the endemic issues and get public transport and cycling/walking working properly in City

riddlinrussell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I'm not even 'anti-ring road' I just think it needs to be made clear to Galway Council that

a) its not going to be the Panacea they think it is
b) they can't have it until they make an actual good go of fixing the endemic issues and get public transport and cycling/walking working properly in City

Aye, thing is, regardless of whether they get it or not, they are more or less being forced into taking action now anyway.

Short term - covid has forced them to drastically shorten the planned timeframe for implementation for a lot of the elements of the GTS

Long term - The fact that all roads in the city were at or above capacity for significant portions of the working day meant that if Galway was to achieve its anticipated 50% growth within 20 years, then they would have to change focus from moving cars around to moving people around.

I guess where I was coming from was this. With the capacity being reached already for private cars, provision of more sustainable transport infrastructure is the only way to move more people. Taking the full implementation of the GTS as the baseline, this would likely mean the following for Galway:

• Even more bus routes
• Higher frequency on all bus routes
• Longer hours on all bus routes
• Increased provision of protected bike lanes (paint is not protection)
• Greater provision of a higher quantity of bike parking facilities and a significant increase in the quality of these e.g. covered, secure, cctv monitored, multi-story etc
• A focus on higher density developments closer to the city
• A focus on permeability and accessibility for new developments
• Further reprioritisation at junctions for cyclists, pedestrians & buses
• Park n strides on all routes into the city
• Finally, a more realistic business case for the provision of light rail in the city by 2040

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

Galway City Ring Road is not the silver bullet, O'Reilly tells oral hearing

Pauline O'Reilly wrote:

Where there is a rail line – homes are built.

Tell that to the people who live in the metropolises of Attymon and Woodlawn.

Or to the three people who board the train daily at Ardrahan.

riddlinrussell

I think that has to be taken with the pinch of salt of 'with good planning', which interestingly applies in reverse to any ring road, if expansion beyond the ring road was planned correctly then it might not be a disaster.

Easier to manage good planning at a fixed station though, although tell that to every Irish planner and developer for the last 100 years....

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

• A focus on higher density developments closer to the city

While I would agree with you that this makes sense from a planning point of view (current developments like Bonham Quay and Crown Square are examples), I think that Covid has somewhat knocked this on the head.

If you can work from home, who would want to work in a crowded office building in the city? Or live in a shoebox (since shoeboxes are the only type of apartments that we build here)? Across the world, and in Ireland, fibre broadband is going to reverse a lot of the need for the growth of cities.

Galway City Tribune wrote:

Large-scale office developments such as Bonham Quay and Crown Square could be the last of their kind in the city as evidence grows that workers intend to stick with remote working, even after Covid-19 restrictions are lifted.
...
indications are that the demand for office space could decline significantly in the coming years.

serfboard

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Easier to manage good planning at a fixed station though, although tell that to every Irish planner and developer for the last 100 years....

I don't disagree with you, but "good planning" is the vain hope of the idealist, whereas scattered-around-the-place, rule-bending, non-planned housing is what applies in Ireland, and in Galway county most particularly.

riddlinrussell

serfboard wrote: »

While I would agree with you that this makes sense from a planning point of view (current developments like Bonham Quay and Crown Square are examples), I think that Covid has somewhat knocked this on the head.

If you can work from home, who would want to work in a crowded office building in the city? Or live in a shoebox (since shoeboxes are the only type of apartments that we build here)? Across the world, and in Ireland, fibre broadband is going to reverse a lot of the need for the growth of cities.

I would argue that demand for office space might decline, but its a blinkered and depressing view of the world to think that cities exist solely to facilitate business.

Ireland might have more 'rural loving' people who wish to have their one off house in the countryside and then complain about lack of services, than other places, but there are still plenty who would choose city life or town life over a rural existence, regardless of where they work.

I hope to see a lot of these commercial spaces opening up to become residential and social space in the future, and of course, the office isn't dead, but likely we will see hotdesking massively increase. The city centre hasn't been the sole focus of business for a very long time and it hasn't proven to be the death of the city. I think they can survive COVID, and hopefully become all the better for it.

Ruhanna

serfboard wrote: »

Tell that to the people who live in the metropolises of Attymon and Woodlawn.

Or to the three people who board the train daily at Ardrahan.

Are you referring to the existence of sprawl, by any chance? You'll find that's caused by roads and cars.

Sam Russell

Ruhanna wrote: »

Are you referring to the existence of sprawl, by any chance? You'll find that's caused by roads and cars.

I would think it is caused by allowing one off houses in any part of the countryside. That is a failure of planning.

Reuben1210

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think it is caused by allowing one off houses in any part of the countryside. That is a failure of planning.

Did I read somewhere there was a plan by this govt. or the last to limit one-off housing and ribbon development?

Kerry and Donegal are particularly blighted by it, it is awful and inefficient!

Cookiemunster

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Did I read somewhere there was a plan by this govt. or the last to limit one-off housing and ribbon development?

Kerry and Donegal are particularly blighted by it, it is awful and inefficient!

It's already in place. One off rural houses are now regularly being refused by local authorities all over the country. I've seen plenty of local councilors in local papers complaining about central government imposing restrictions on them.

veryangryman

On topic, i noticed that the roads listed in the budget did not include mention of the M6.

Included roads were the N4(Sligo part under construction), N56 (i imagine the LK part), Dunkettle and one or 2 others. Galway a notable exclusion. I'm sure there were reasons, many of which have been alluded to in this thread.

Sam Russell

veryangryman wrote: »

On topic, i noticed that the roads listed in the budget did not include mention of the M6.

Included roads were the N4(Sligo part under construction), N56 (i imagine the LK part), Dunkettle and one or 2 others. Galway a notable exclusion. I'm sure there were reasons, many of which have been alluded to in this thread.

It is not ready for funding yet.

Pete_Cavan

veryangryman wrote: »

On topic, i noticed that the roads listed in the budget did not include mention of the M6.

Included roads were the N4(Sligo part under construction), N56 (i imagine the LK part), Dunkettle and one or 2 others. Galway a notable exclusion. I'm sure there were reasons, many of which have been alluded to in this thread.

It is going to be with ABP for most of next year so there will be little or no expenditure on this project next year.

marno21

veryangryman wrote: »

On topic, i noticed that the roads listed in the budget did not include mention of the M6.

Included roads were the N4(Sligo part under construction), N56 (i imagine the LK part), Dunkettle and one or 2 others. Galway a notable exclusion. I'm sure there were reasons, many of which have been alluded to in this thread.

It won't be able to start for another 3-4 years yet. No funding required in the short term.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

It won't be able to start for another 3-4 years yet. No funding required in the short term.

And that assumes it gets the nod.

Ruhanna

Ruhanna wrote: »

Are you referring to the existence of sprawl, by any chance? You'll find that's caused by roads and cars.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think it is caused by allowing one off houses in any part of the countryside. That is a failure of planning.

It's both, clearly. Private cars (in theory) allow car owners to drive where they want when they want. If our planning model is based on that principle, which it clearly is in Ireland and in many other places, then the 'logical' thing to do is to assume that things are they way they are and will remain so forever, so let's build roads wherever and whenever they are "needed". The roads are needed to allow housing development, and the housing development can be allowed to sprawl because cars make that possible. Unfortunately, the resultant sprawl makes it necessary to own a car, or maybe even three or four cars for a large household.

Now, if it's the case that you live on the edge of sprawl or even far out in the countryside, but most of the jobs are somewhere else (such as in Galway City for example) then you have to drive to work every day. It turns out that thousands of others have to do the very same thing, so you find yourself stuck in traffic every morning, tearing your hair out with the frustration of it all.

So what's the solution, supposedly? Well, if many thousands of people live in sprawl-land, and therefore have to travel by car, then the solution must be more roads, right?

But hang on, if we build another big road, won't that make driving to and from the sprawl even easier? Great, let's move out and build a big five-bedroom house in the countryside on a half acre for the price of a three-bed semi in the city. We'll beat the traffic by getting up half an hour earlier every morning.

serfboard

Ruhanna wrote: »

So what's the solution?

The solution is not to have allowed one-off housing in the countryside in the first place, following a simple rule of only those who work on the land (i.e. farmers) can live on the land.

Everyone else must live in city, town or village.

Then, you can organise proper public transport from those villages and towns to the cities, because you have the critical mass to do so.

However, scattered one-off housing is what we have in Ireland, so the solution for us is Park n Rides on the outskirts of cities. And specifically in Galway we need massive investment in Bus Park n Rides, since the train Park n Ride at Oranmore only serves those who come from the East and journey to the city centre.

serfboard

serfboard wrote: »

The solution is not to have allowed one-off housing in the countryside in the first place, following a simple rule of only those who work on the land (i.e. farmers) can live on the land.

Farmers don't need to live on the land. Loads of places don't even allow that again due to the obvious inefficiencies and how open to abuse it would be.

spacetweek

Deleted User wrote: »

Farmers don't need to live on the land. Loads of places don't even allow that again due to the obvious inefficiencies and how open to abuse it would be.

In places like Spain and Italy farmers don't live on their farms, they live in an apartment in a nearby rural village and commute to their farm as needed. This model of living would be anathema in Ireland, but it makes for very vibrant rural villages - their kids can walk to the nearby school, teenagers hang out without requiring to be driven everywhere, anyone can simply walk to a pub so drink driving doesn't happen and cafes are supported by farmers in the morning.

Ideas, ideas!

spacetweek

spacetweek wrote: »

In places like Spain and Italy farmers don't live on their farms, they live in an apartment in a nearby rural village and commute to their farm as needed. This model of living would be anathema in Ireland, but it makes for very vibrant rural villages - their kids can walk to the nearby school, teenagers hang out without requiring to be driven everywhere, anyone can simply walk to a pub so drink driving doesn't happen and cafes are supported by farmers in the morning.

Ideas, ideas!

Even in England it is that way as well, few farmers live on the farm as well as the fact that new one-offs have been banned since the 1940s in many areas.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Even in England it is that way as well, few farmers live on the farm as well as the fact that new one-offs have been banned since the 1940s in many areas.

The reason farmers live on their land is because it is their land. Most farms in the UK are rented not owned, but following the various land acts, Irish tenants were granted the land on annuities (mortgages).

The reason one-off houses occur is either from children granted sites by parents to build a home, or farmers turning road frontage into a cash crop. The second one has been combated by planning requiring local residency requirements.

There should be a requirement to prove infrastructure is present or if not a large contribution should be required.

tharlear

The reason one-off houses occur is either from children granted sites by parents to build a home, or farmers turning road frontage into a cash crop. The second one has been combated by planning requiring local residency requirements.

There should be a requirement to prove infrastructure is present or if not a large contribution should be required.

But hang on, if we build another big road, won't that make driving to and from the sprawl even easier? Great, let's move out and build a big five-bedroom house in the countryside on a half acre for the price of a three-bed semi in the city. We'll beat the traffic by getting up half an hour earlier every morning.

But why are people willing to get up 1/2hr to 1hr early to live far from work with sparse services?
That is the question that many anti-bypass people refuse to ask
Could it be that people don't want a shoe box semi-d. Tiny badly built low rise apt and semi-d houses. (high density they are not)
As long as we continue to build houses people do not want they will continue to move out and build what they want in the countryside. The apt and semi-d become student accommodation, because no high density student accommodation has been built near the uni.

people elect the politicians that make the rules. We have and continue to get what we vote for!

Sam Russell

tharlear wrote: »

But hang on, if we build another big road, won't that make driving to and from the sprawl even easier? Great, let's move out and build a big five-bedroom house in the countryside on a half acre for the price of a three-bed semi in the city. We'll beat the traffic by getting up half an hour earlier every morning.

But why are people willing to get up 1/2hr to 1hr early to live far from work with sparse services?
That is the question that many anti-bypass people refuse to ask
Could it be that people don't want a shoe box semi-d. Tiny badly built low rise apt and semi-d houses. (high density they are not)
As long as we continue to build houses people do not want they will continue to move out and build what they want in the countryside. The apt and semi-d become student accommodation, because no high density student accommodation has been built near the uni.

people elect the politicians that make the rules. We have and continue to get what we vote for!

The cost of housing tends to equal out as buyers try to get the best for themselves and their family.

The game changer occurs when daddy gives a half acre site and sonny or daughter does a self-build hacienda in the remote townland, and drives to work. No consideration for anything outside selfish interests.

Charge the farmer capital gains tax and that might reduce this. Require infrastructure before pp is granted. A lot of other measures are possible but adequate public transport for Galway, with adequate P&R facilities. This will reduce traffic in Galway substantially.

The bypass will only increase traffic.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

The reason farmers live on their land is because it is their land. Most farms in the UK are rented not owned, but following the various land acts, Irish tenants were granted the land on annuities (mortgages).

Most farm workers used to live in "tied cottages" out in the countryside where they worked, the cottage owned by the landowning farmer and came with the job.
With mechanisation, these were no longer needed and most were demolished when the farm hands died off. But yes, the land consolidation happened there far earlier than here,it is only just getting started in reality.

Ruhanna

tharlear wrote: »

But why are people willing to get up 1/2hr to 1hr early to live far from work with sparse services?
That is the question that many anti-bypass people refuse to ask
Could it be that people don't want a shoe box semi-d. Tiny badly built low rise apt and semi-d houses. (high density they are not)
As long as we continue to build houses people do not want they will continue to move out and build what they want in the countryside. The apt and semi-d become student accommodation, because no high density student accommodation has been built near the uni.

people elect the politicians that make the rules. We have and continue to get what we vote for!

Nobody opposing the bypass/ring road is avoiding those questions. Quite the opposite. I've no idea what the actual numbers are, but some people living in the countryside were born there and have (adult) children looking to build homes in their locality. Many others are people who moved out of the city decades ago to build a detached house on a half acre or whatever, and now their offspring want the same. Others are people who moved out relatively recently, and their kids are still going to school. They're not farmers, and they're not rural dwellers of old. They're urbanites wanting the best of both worlds: property that would be unaffordable in the city, and a lifestyle consisting of rural living financed by urban employment.

That culture, which has been going on in Ireland for decades, has been made possible by a number of things: easily available planning permission, road construction projects, and affordable car ownership (eg cheap credit etc).

The M6 Galway Ring Road promises more of the same, which is why it's so popular in certain quarters. It's the exact opposite of what we should be doing, which is to ensure the sustainability of actual farming, to make county towns viable by promoting the local economy, to stop the spread of sprawl, and to stop planning around cars and driving.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Most farm workers used to live in "tied cottages" out in the countryside where they worked, the cottage owned by the landowning farmer and came with the job.
With mechanisation, these were no longer needed and most were demolished when the farm hands died off. But yes, the land consolidation happened there far earlier than here,it is only just getting started in reality.

I am not sure where 'here' is for you, but Ireland had the land acts in the late 19th century, followed by the Land Commission that transformed the farmer tenant into the farmer land owner. Now he/she did not get the land for nothing as they had a annuity to pay for 50 years or so, just like a mortgage. That did not happen in GB. Tenant farmers are still very common in England, and crofters in Scotland.

Mechanization is a much more recent in Irish farming - probably from mid 20th century. Most cottages were left go to ruin.

tharlear

Nobody opposing the bypass/ring road is avoiding those questions.

Unfortunately I think they are.

Many of the people I see complaining about the current bypass proposal say thing like, they built the Quin-centennial bridge and it filed up with traffic. They complain about the houses built in Knocknacarra in the 80/90s. But people wanted those houses. Galway city population has increase about 3x (I know the boundary expanded). If the bypass is built, yes the city will expand further and who knows in 20 years it may be over 150K. If the bypass is built you will get more investment.

So it appears you have a choice, build the bypass and allow more 80/90 knocknacarra type suburbs being built that people will buy, city expands "medium density sprawl" . Don't built it and you will get more one offs in the countryside "very low density sprawl". In my view its a case of the perfect being the enemy of the possible.

The local councilors will never block one off housings, it what the voters want, because they don't want the high price shoe boxes being built in the city.

Sam Russell

tharlear wrote: »

Unfortunately I think they are.

Many of the people I see complaining about the current bypass proposal say thing like, they built the Quin-centennial bridge and it filed up with traffic. They complain about the houses built in Knocknacarra in the 80/90s. But people wanted those houses. Galway city population has increase about 3x (I know the boundary expanded). If the bypass is built, yes the city will expand further and who knows in 20 years it may be over 150K. If the bypass is built you will get more investment.

So it appears you have a choice, build the bypass and allow more 80/90 knocknacarra type suburbs being built that people will buy, city expands "medium density sprawl" . Don't built it and you will get more one offs in the countryside "very low density sprawl". In my view its a case of the perfect being the enemy of the possible.

The local councilors will never block one off housings, it what the voters want, because they don't want the high price shoe boxes being built in the city.

The problem with the Ring Road is that it does not address the primary problem in any way, and will cause more of the current problems - lack of public transport and cycling infrastructure and exacerbate the one off housing problem and dependence on cars.

The problem of internal traffic problems in Galway will not only persist but get much worse because of the Galway City Councils inability to plan - well, anything. The Ring Road will just make it easier to continue the bad planning.