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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]
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Galway isn't Dublin, the geography, population and economics are not comparable.
If the population density isn't sufficient for luas, then it isn't sufficient for an urban motorway distributor road. It's been established the proposed road will not solve any existing problem.
No need to blow 600mil for that, it can be done now. As many posters have pointed out more than 90% of trips are local and short distance.
Ok Cgcsb, you keep trying to manipulate the facts to suit your own agenda. It's sad to see the disregard you have for the lives of the people of Galway, both City and County.
The hypocrisy is staggering - it's ok to NOT build a road that is the best option and improves lives for all, but it is ok to spend the same money making an absolute mess of the City - and still end up having to build the road anyway in years to come when it will be too late for many.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19040
Ok Cgcsb, you keep trying to manipulate the facts to suit your own agenda. It's sad to see the disregard you have for the lives of the people of Galway, both City and County.
The hypocrisy is staggering - it's ok to NOT build a road that is the best option and improves lives for all, but it is ok to spend the same money making an absolute mess of the City - and still end up having to build the road anyway in years to come when it will be too late for many.
Look, the bypass is not a bypass because there is no bypass traffic. There is insufficient volume of traffic going from east to west or west to east of the city. The only traffic is from western suburbs to eastern factories wich is the work of a distributor road not a bypass.
Galway is choked with traffic because of decades of mismanagement by the Galway City Council and Galway County Council demonstated by the planning decisions that have lead to one off houses all over Co Galway, and most housing estates on the west side of Galway and industrial development on the eastern side.
The main problem as I see it is the multiplicity of roundabouts that do not work, the lack of public transport, and the absence of adequate bridges over the Corrib.
The proposed bypass only solves the bridge problem at enormous cost, and does nothing for public transport. It does nothing for the city centre.
Solve the public transport now as the bypass will not be completed for a decade.0 -
Ok Cgcsb, you keep trying to manipulate the facts to suit your own agenda.
My opinion is based on facts, I didn't have an opinion before I was aware of the facts.It's sad to see the disregard you have for the lives of the people of Galway, both City and County.
emotional twaddle.The hypocrisy is staggering - it's ok to NOT build a road that is the best option and improves lives for all, but it is ok to spend the same money making an absolute mess of the City - and still end up having to build the road anyway in years to come when it will be too late for many.
We've established this isn't true, it's something you made up based on no evidence.0 -
The population density argument one is a poor one since if you refuse to build public transport, (segregated) cycling and walking infrastructure, you are effectively choosing that people will drive everywhere by default, since they won’t have the alternative of using any of that unbuild infrastructure available to them.
Since everyone driving everywhere is guaranteed to cause traffic congestion, a refusal to build infrastructure therefore amounts to a choice in favour of congestion and pollution even if people don’t realise it.0 -
The population density argument one is a poor one since if you refuse to build public transport, (segregated) cycling and walking infrastructure, you are effectively choosing that people will drive everywhere by default, since they won’t have the alternative of using any of that unbuild infrastructure available to them.
Since everyone driving everywhere is guaranteed to cause traffic congestion, a refusal to build infrastructure therefore amounts to a choice in favour of congestion and pollution even if people don’t realise it.
I would add to this, Ireland has never overbuilt public transport so I don't know why there's a fear of over building it comes from. I suppose the fear is rooted in 20th century anglo-saxson fear of subsidising public services. Imagine one day we had a piece of well functioning public transport infrastructure that wasn't heavily over subscribed and over crowded, the horror of it all.0 -
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1. I regularly travel to South Dublin where they have a huge increase in bike lanes & they're ever growing, Luas, frequent buses and much improved infrastructure. All thanks to the M50 bringing all the through traffic away from these areas. A lot of people I know there have now invested in good bikes, and they're very happy with the way things have improved.
Holding the M50 up as some sort of triumph shows how misguided this train of thought is. The M50 is a disaster, it has been like a car park since it opened and still is today (well would be in normal times, were it not for Covid-19) despite having fortunes spent on it between grade separating junctions, widening, barrier free tolling, etc. It is a failure because it is being used as a local distributor road by huge numbers of commuters, to claim that to be a success is baffling. The Galway Bypass is destined to be another not one thing nor another camel with humps stuck on everywhere designed by committee tasked with providing a horse.
Almost all cycle lanes, Luas and buses in south Dublin are city centre bound, while the traffic using the M50 is predominantly going to locations on the periphery of the city so the M50 does not remove through traffic away from where the cycle lanes/Luas/buses are (and the Luas in south Dublin is predominantly off street on the former rail alignment so no through traffic anyway, similar with numerous sections of off road cycle routes). In most places, the cycle lanes you talk of are using reallocated road space, space which was not "freed up", it just eventually became accepted that facilitating cyclists rather than having everyone sitting in queues of traffic was to everyones benefit. If there was a network of quality orbital bus and cycle routes you might have a point about M50 removing traffic, but we don't, so you don't.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »The M50 was built but the public transport was not. There should have been a proper rail service from Kildare into Dublin.
What Galway really needs is local government reform. They have made no decent decisions in the last 50 years.
What ever happened to the big crane they got for the docks to unload all those containers?
Sam,
Agree with you on the Train but stopping the M50 until the train is built is stupid...
We have 4 times the cars than when the last bridge was built... We need an outer pass so we can divert traffic and then build a proper reliable Public Transport... We need a dedicated bus lane across the river which is utilising that capacity. We also have to recognise that traffic in Galway exists at certain times and the roads should be fully open in off peak hours...
Sorry but the all PT or nothing route have not sat in traffic on the westside, looked left and see an empty lane carrying more people in Taxis than buses and then thing that it took 18ish months of hell to get that...
Also there is nothing wrong with wanting to live on the west side fo the city. It is the basic idiotic planning that put the factories on the other side...0 -
We have 4 times the cars than when the last bridge was built... We need an outer pass so we can divert traffic and then build a proper reliable Public Transport...
Look at the first sentence and look at the second sentence and I think we will all realise exactly why we are stuck in a mountain of traffic all day.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Look, the bypass is not a bypass because there is no bypass traffic. There is insufficient volume of traffic going from east to west or west to east of the city. The only traffic is from western suburbs to eastern factories wich is the work of a distributor road not a bypass.
Galway is choked with traffic because of decades of mismanagement by the Galway City Council and Galway County Council demonstated by the planning decisions that have lead to one off houses all over Co Galway, and most housing estates on the west side of Galway and industrial development on the eastern side.
The main problem as I see it is the multiplicity of roundabouts that do not work, the lack of public transport, and the absence of adequate bridges over the Corrib.
The proposed bypass only solves the bridge problem at enormous cost, and does nothing for public transport. It does nothing for the city centre.
Solve the public transport now as the bypass will not be completed for a decade.
Sam,
I am basically with you on most of this, at least the aim...
First the blame for the city lays mainly with various city managers and their staff over the years. The council itself is fairly toothless unless they gain a super majority. City Manager after City Manager have screwed up and moved on e.g. Eyre Square, Westside road works, Water Crisis, Smart Traffic Lights, College Road upgrade, Shop Street(will I list the problems).... They are an incompetent mess IMHO...
Do we really thing this bunch could organise a proper modern day public transport system for a medium side low density city? We have to ask that seriously.
It doesn't help that they aren't from the the city and we had a transport guy who used to cycle to work... The Council has asked them to answer questions and they have been treated with contempt... I am coming to the view if you are not from Galway or neighbouring country you have no skin in the game... No all councillors are bad or lack ability, they mixed bunch but the good ones have no chance to get things done..
So do I want an independent contractor to build a road around these guys mess? YES...
But before we need public transport system, we need figure out hog Galway people can get there city back and run it for ourselves.
At the moment the Galway People can agree on needing a bypass (personally I don't think it is far enough out but I will take anything now)0 -
The population density argument one is a poor one since if you refuse to build public transport, (segregated) cycling and walking infrastructure, you are effectively choosing that people will drive everywhere by default, since they won’t have the alternative of using any of that unbuild infrastructure available to them.
Since everyone driving everywhere is guaranteed to cause traffic congestion, a refusal to build infrastructure therefore amounts to a choice in favour of congestion and pollution even if people don’t realise it.
At this moment and time there isn't the space to have Bus lanes and Cycle lanes...
But lets look at the bus lanes we got... They are seriously under utilised... There main advantage is getting across the city in a taxi...
Look how many cars go down the westside between each bus run... Cycle lanes are generally empty except close to University... Cycling in Galway has probably an upper limit of around 20% and that target is pretty unattainable without 100+ million being spent...0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »Holding the M50 up as some sort of triumph shows how misguided this train of thought is. The M50 is a disaster, it has been like a car park since it opened and still is today (well would be in normal times, were it not for Covid-19) despite having fortunes spent on it between grade separating junctions, widening, barrier free tolling, etc. It is a failure because it is being used as a local distributor road by huge numbers of commuters, to claim that to be a success is baffling. The Galway Bypass is destined to be another not one thing nor another camel with humps stuck on everywhere designed by committee tasked with providing a horse.
Almost all cycle lanes, Luas and buses in south Dublin are city centre bound, while the traffic using the M50 is predominantly going to locations on the periphery of the city so the M50 does not remove through traffic away from where the cycle lanes/Luas/buses are (and the Luas in south Dublin is predominantly off street on the former rail alignment so no through traffic anyway, similar with numerous sections of off road cycle routes). In most places, the cycle lanes you talk of are using reallocated road space, space which was not "freed up", it just eventually became accepted that facilitating cyclists rather than having everyone sitting in queues of traffic was to everyones benefit. If there was a network of quality orbital bus and cycle routes you might have a point about M50 removing traffic, but we don't, so you don't.
The M50 was YEARS AND YEARS behind schedule which is why it is overcrowded, the population is growing all the time - same with its upgrades and junctions. Without it Dublin would not be what it is today, and to suggest it is constantly a carpark is blatantly wrong as I use is frequently and it works extremely well. Should we do a poll of people living in Dublin and ask them what they think? Do you think they would vote in favour of having no M50? What about all the major companies that have set up in Dublin as a result of the proper infrastructure being in place.
What I've highlighted in bold is another example of mistruths and as one of Trump's staffers once said 'alternative facts', which seem to appear on this thread frequently. It is absolutely not the case that all of the cycle lanes in South County Dublin go to the City Centre - how do I know? I cycle them frequently! They go to parks with designated cycling lanes and other areas for public use, Luas Stops, shops, you name it. What is also completely untrue is that this isn't as a result of the M50. It 100% is, as I lived in this area before the last section of the M50 opened. Traffic would be diverted off at Dundrum and Stillorgan to try and get South - it was an absolute nightmare for all involved, people trying to get somewhere and the local residents. This is what Galway is currently left with thanks to people such as the posters on here.
The place has been transformed since the M50 opened - fact.0 -
Sam,
We have 4 times the cars than when the last bridge was built...
And still, hardly any of it bypassing the City.We need an outer pass so we can divert traffic and then build a proper reliable Public Transport... We need a dedicated bus lane across the river which is utilising that capacity. We also have to recognise that traffic in Galway exists at certain times and the roads should be fully open in off peak hours...
Sorry but the all PT or nothing route have not sat in traffic on the westside, looked left and see an empty lane carrying more people in Taxis than buses and then thing that it took 18ish months of hell to get that...
Also there is nothing wrong with wanting to live on the west side fo the city. It is the basic idiotic planning that put the factories on the other side...
bus lanes can be built in a year or two, the central section for a bus only spine can be implemented tomorrow. We're a decade away, at least, from a new bypass to remove 9% of the traffic for €600mil.0 -
Of course there is, it's simply a matter of restricting cars as per the galway transport strategy.At this moment and time there isn't the space to have Bus lanes and Cycle lanes...But lets look at the bus lanes we got... They are seriously under utilised... There main advantage is getting across the city in a taxi...
no point looking at what exists. Bus systems need near continous priority to be effective, Galway only has a few metres of bus lane.
Same as buses, you need it to be widespread.Look how many cars go down the westside between each bus run... Cycle lanes are generally empty except close to University...
why 20%??Cycling in Galway has probably an upper limit of around 20% and that target is pretty unattainable without 100+ million being spent...
100 million is absolute rubbish. Transport for London plan to spend £160million on blanketing the greater London area in cycling infrastructure over 5 years. Dublin's 2020 cycling budget amounts to €9million.0 -
I just hope if it gets built that it's not a disaster coz it is costing a lot of money that could be used elsewhere,it looks to me that it's going to only move the congestion around from 1 place to another and I hope if it's built I'm wrong and that they have a plan for public transport to go with the road0
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Key PT goals for Galway that I can see
- City Centre cycleways
- Cycle links from West side to east side
- Busconnects fully implemented and whatever QBCs are identified implemented
- Commuter rail upgrade and additional stations from at least Oranmore, out to Athenry ideally
- Look at feasibility of a Gluas/Galway Rapid Transit system from the West to East
A fair chunk of them could be looked at concurrently with the planning of the ring road without killing that project, but I think there's a fear that they may be successful enough to lower the AADT to the point the ring road isn't justified any more, so they don't want to move on PT projects.0 -
riddlinrussell wrote: »Key PT goals for Galway that I can see
- City Centre cycleways
- Cycle links from West side to east side
- Busconnects fully implemented and whatever QBCs are identified implemented
- Commuter rail upgrade and additional stations from at least Oranmore, out to Athenry ideally
- Look at feasibility of a Gluas/Galway Rapid Transit system from the West to East
A fair chunk of them could be looked at concurrently with the planning of the ring road without killing that project, but I think there's a fear that they may be successful enough to lower the AADT to the point the ring road isn't justified any more, so they don't want to move on PT projects.
Of course they would as we need a solution. There's just the tiny little detail you're omitting called not enough room on the current roads/streets for 'City Centre cycleways', Busconnects should start ASAP but won't be effective at taking enough cars off the road until these roads can be dedicated with proper bus lanes/streets - A Gluas would cost the price of building the road without solving any of the problems .0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Look, the bypass is not a bypass because there is no bypass traffic. There is insufficient volume of traffic going from east to west or west to east of the city. The only traffic is from western suburbs to eastern factories wich is the work of a distributor road not a bypass.
Galway is choked with traffic because of decades of mismanagement by the Galway City Council and Galway County Council demonstated by the planning decisions that have lead to one off houses all over Co Galway, and most housing estates on the west side of Galway and industrial development on the eastern side.
The main problem as I see it is the multiplicity of roundabouts that do not work, the lack of public transport, and the absence of adequate bridges over the Corrib.
The proposed bypass only solves the bridge problem at enormous cost, and does nothing for public transport. It does nothing for the city centre.
Solve the public transport now as the bypass will not be completed for a decade.
I'm sorry Sam but you lost me when you stated that the M50 should never have been upgraded or the N7 Naas road...pure and utter madness. This talk about roundabouts, etc is just sugar coating for trying to block the road full stop.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19040
I just hope if it gets built that it's not a disaster coz it is costing a lot of money that could be used elsewhere,it looks to me that it's going to only move the congestion around from 1 place to another and I hope if it's built I'm wrong and that they have a plan for public transport to go with the road
Well, they have history in this. Most of their (GCC) transport iniatives have had to be reversed or should have been reversed. Moneenageisha roundabout built at great expense to replace a traffic light junction then rebuilt as a traffic light junction at even more expense. Look around Galway at all the new roads and roundabouts to move the traffic congestion about.riddlinrussell wrote: »Key PT goals for Galway that I can see- City Centre cycleways
- Cycle links from West side to east side
- Busconnects fully implemented and whatever QBCs are identified implemented
- Commuter rail upgrade and additional stations from at least Oranmore, out to Athenry ideally
- Look at feasibility of a Gluas/Galway Rapid Transit system from the West to East
A fair chunk of them could be looked at concurrently with the planning of the ring road without killing that project, but I think there's a fear that they may be successful enough to lower the AADT to the point the ring road isn't justified any more, so they don't want to move on PT projects.
I think you are right. Solve the public transport by buying a few buses and put them to work around the city and hey presto - no congestion. So no bypass.
It might help if the buses were nice and shiny and in Galway colours. They could even be made free to see how that works. It would take more than a decade to rack up the missed fare box at more than a fraction of €600 million.0 -
Of course they would as we need a solution. There's just the tiny little detail you're omitting called not enough room on the current roads/streets for 'City Centre cycleways', Busconnects should start ASAP but won't be effective at taking enough cars off the road until these roads can be dedicated with proper bus lanes/streets - A Gluas would cost the price of building the road without solving any of the problems .
Could you give me an example of a key city centre road in Galway that doesn't have room for cycling provision? (I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I genuinely am not familiar with which streets you are referring to)
If I know what we have to work with I will take a look and see if there is a PT fix without taking cars off the road0 -
The M50 was YEARS AND YEARS behind schedule which is why it is overcrowded, the population is growing all the time - same with its upgrades and junctions. Without it Dublin would not be what it is today, and to suggest it is constantly a carpark is blatantly wrong as I use is frequently and it works extremely well. Should we do a poll of people living in Dublin and ask them what they think? Do you think they would vote in favour of having no M50? What about all the major companies that have set up in Dublin as a result of the proper infrastructure being in place.
And thus is the futility of road building to facilitate commuters - the road attracts more cars which eats up the capacity, requiring additional capacity attracting more cars. It nothing to do with being behind schedule, it is the inevitable consequence of focusing on roads to facilitate commuting rather than other methods. Galway is doomed to the same fate with the current plan.
And I didn't say the M50 shouldn't exist. It was built with too many junctions (and was actually planned to have more!) and is used as a distributor road with huge numbers of short journeys taking place which undermines it. A proper "bypass" with fewer junctions but still linking up our national road network, would see it work better. Again, the same mistake being made in Galway, a road intended to be freeflow yet riddled with junctions.
If you polled people and the choice was a high qualify public transport network that can bring you to work (and other places) with predictable, consistent journey times, or just stick with traffic jams on the M50, which do you think would be most popular?What I've highlighted in bold is another example of mistruths and as one of Trump's staffers once said 'alternative facts', which seem to appear on this thread frequently. It is absolutely not the case that all of the cycle lanes in South County Dublin go to the City Centre - how do I know? I cycle them frequently! They go to parks with designated cycling lanes and other areas for public use, Luas Stops, shops, you name it. What is also completely untrue is that this isn't as a result of the M50. It 100% is, as I lived in this area before the last section of the M50 opened. Traffic would be diverted off at Dundrum and Stillorgan to try and get South - it was an absolute nightmare for all involved, people trying to get somewhere and the local residents. This is what Galway is currently left with thanks to people such as the posters on here.
The place has been transformed since the M50 opened - fact.
Of course cycle lanes serve many amenities but the majority of cycle lanes/buses/Luas (all of which you initially mentioned, as did I, but you go off on one about cycle lanes only and completely miss the overall point) are city centre focused. There is still huge volumes of traffic on roads in south Dublin at peak times regardless of the M50. Very little of the cycle infrastructure has been at the expense of cars, lanes may have been narrowed to create a cycle lane but where one traffic lane existed, one remains. Obviously newer roads are designed with cycle lanes but these are post-M50. The M50 does not change the fact that the people carrying capacity of roads, particularly suburban roads, is greatly increased by facilitating cyclists. Same with Galway, road space can be reallocated in the absence of a "bypass".0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 19040
I'm sorry Sam but you lost me when you stated that the M50 should never have been upgraded or the N7 Naas road...pure and utter madness. This talk about roundabouts, etc is just sugar coating for trying to block the road full stop.
I never mentioned the M50 in the post you quoted.
I have not suggested that the M50 not be upgraded, nor that the N7 not be upgraded. Besides it has nothing to do with Galway. You must be confusing me with another poster.
The roundabouts are a significant cause of congestion, such that some have reverted back to junctions. Particularly on Bothar na dTreabh, those junctions should have been free flow, and that road should have a bus lane on the whole of it, with buses on it providing a realistic service.0 -
At this moment and time there isn't the space to have Bus lanes and Cycle lanes...
There is but much of it either is essentially devoted to cars (ie on busy roads) or else the space was never built on (ie routes that could have been built “cross country” just weren’t).But lets look at the bus lanes we got... They are seriously under utilised... There main advantage is getting across the city in a taxi...Look how many cars go down the westside between each bus run...
Bus lanes shouldn’t be congested. They are there to enable buses (and other vehicles such as taxis) to move around more easily, so I amn’t sure why this should be a “complaint” about them, unless you are arguing that we should have a better bus service to utilise them even more. The latter point though does not take away from the need for bus lanes as congestion will only fall when people know that buses, bikes or walking are faster than travelling by cars for shorter/medium distances.Cycle lanes are generally empty except close to University... Cycling in Galway has probably an upper limit of around 20% and that target is pretty unattainable without 100+ million being spent...
Again, cycle lanes shouldn’t be congested. Also, the clear evidence from other countries is that successful levels of cycling requires segregated cycle lanes (and/or Dutch style laws that automatically deem the motorist guilty if they hit a cyclist). Those cycle lanes need to be interconnected, widespread and ideally away from busy roads as no one wants to have a hundred meters of cycle lane only to be dumped back onto a busy road at the end. Proper infrastructure is needed if you want people to help reduce congestion. Don’t spend it and they will stay in their cars.
Lastly, would indeed need to spend a lot to make that happen, although that would be smaller than building any major bypass or motorway. That though is only the situation because we have not invested the money to do so over the decades. Had we devoted a mandatory fixed percentage of the roads budget to spending on cycle lanes, bus ways etc over recent decades, while we were upgrading our roads network, we would all have radically different transport options than we currently do. Equally it should be obvious, if we don’t spend that money from now on, we will face the exact same problem two or three decades down the line, only with vastly more congestion. And, the problem will only get harder to address as time passes and the city continues to grow.0 -
Of course there is, it's simply a matter of restricting cars as per the galway transport strategy.
no point looking at what exists. Bus systems need near continous priority to be effective, Galway only has a few metres of bus lane.
Same as buses, you need it to be widespread.
why 20%??
100 million is absolute rubbish. Transport for London plan to spend £160million on blanketing the greater London area in cycling infrastructure over 5 years. Dublin's 2020 cycling budget amounts to €9million.
Show us a country with higher usage than Netherlands... They have around 25% usage while having a huge culture in cycling and far more accommodating weather. It rains a lot more in Galway than in Netherlands, it is also way flatter thus making it easier to cycle... Netherlands has 22,000 km of bicycle lanes, have we got even a fifth of that?
And it is not cheap:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cost-of-2-7km-dublin-cycle-path-jumps-to-20m-1.3807307
So the original cost had it at over €2.59 per km...
So 20% looks highly optimistic...
And I forgot to talk about Galway being low density compared to these cities as well...0 -
I would add to this, Ireland has never overbuilt public transport so I don't know why there's a fear of over building it comes from. I suppose the fear is rooted in 20th century anglo-saxson fear of subsidising public services. Imagine one day we had a piece of well functioning public transport infrastructure that wasn't heavily over subscribed and over crowded, the horror of it all.
Anglo Saxon????
London Tube
London Bus
Even the Tunnel uses a Train...
Public services like NHS seem to be pretty good...0 -
Of course there is, it's simply a matter of restricting cars as per the galway transport strategy.
no point looking at what exists. Bus systems need near continous priority to be effective, Galway only has a few metres of bus lane.
Same as buses, you need it to be widespread.
why 20%??
100 million is absolute rubbish. Transport for London plan to spend £160million on blanketing the greater London area in cycling infrastructure over 5 years. Dublin's 2020 cycling budget amounts to €9million.
Sorry but what you are saying is that we should make driving so crappy that people will be forced on to a heavily subsidised public transport system...
Westside cost a fortune and took ages to give buses a clear passage... There are feck all buses on it...
Until buses actually use it properly we should have a HOV system which could be implemented really quickly and could help everyone... Review every year to see if Public Transport have an actual solution.0 -
And still, hardly any of it bypassing the City.
bus lanes can be built in a year or two, the central section for a bus only spine can be implemented tomorrow. We're a decade away, at least, from a new bypass to remove 9% of the traffic for €600mil.
Problem is the buses will get the roads but they won't have the buses to use them. They won't be on time. Sorry we fell for this scam once too often...
Brest has traffic problems just as bad as Galway... I agree with you that the bypass should be further out but at this stage we need to get it going and I am willing to compromise..0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »Can you please provide a quote for this? You seem to be making up a counter-argument to your posts which doesn't exist.
"The M50 was built as a solution to Dublin's traffic problems when it was built. It was jammers after a few years so was widened to solve the traffic problem. It is now jammers.
The N7 was widened from Naas to the M50 to solve the traffic problem. It is now jammers morning and night. It did not solve the traffic problem - it just made it worse."
This is what Sam Russell said re M50 and N7 construction and upgrade works a few pages back on this thread, you can draw your own conclusions. He also points out in his current post - Dublin isn't relevant to Galway. So suddenly when an example used doesn't suit the argument, it's not relevant...sure.0 -
Problem is the buses will get the roads but they won't have the buses to use them. They won't be on time. Sorry we fell for this scam once too often...
Brest has traffic problems just as bad as Galway... I agree with you that the bypass should be further out but at this stage we need to get it going and I am willing to compromise..
Discussion on the bypass has been going on for the better part of twenty years and none of it has been built yet. We could have built an extensive public transport, segregated cycle lanes and busways in that time and probably for less money had it been built over the intervening years.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »And thus is the futility of road building to facilitate commuters - the road attracts more cars which eats up the capacity, requiring additional capacity attracting more cars. It nothing to do with being behind schedule, it is the inevitable consequence of focusing on roads to facilitate commuting rather than other methods. Galway is doomed to the same fate with the current plan.
And I didn't say the M50 shouldn't exist. It was built with too many junctions (and was actually planned to have more!) and is used as a distributor road with huge numbers of short journeys taking place which undermines it. A proper "bypass" with fewer junctions but still linking up our national road network, would see it work better. Again, the same mistake being made in Galway, a road intended to be freeflow yet riddled with junctions.
If you polled people and the choice was a high qualify public transport network that can bring you to work (and other places) with predictable, consistent journey times, or just stick with traffic jams on the M50, which do you think would be most popular?
Of course cycle lanes serve many amenities but the majority of cycle lanes/buses/Luas (all of which you initially mentioned, as did I, but you go off on one about cycle lanes only and completely miss the overall point) are city centre focused. There is still huge volumes of traffic on roads in south Dublin at peak times regardless of the M50. Very little of the cycle infrastructure has been at the expense of cars, lanes may have been narrowed to create a cycle lane but where one traffic lane existed, one remains. Obviously newer roads are designed with cycle lanes but these are post-M50. The M50 does not change the fact that the people carrying capacity of roads, particularly suburban roads, is greatly increased by facilitating cyclists. Same with Galway, road space can be reallocated in the absence of a "bypass".
First highlight in bold - tunnel vision as per usual. The M50 does not just serve as a commuter road as you like to paint. It is a vital artery around Dublin City, connecting North, West and South, the Airport and links to the M1 and M11 respectively. Without it, Dublin would not be in the position it is today. It is a carpark at times, and it carrys many thousands of cars at other times throughout the day with no issues.
Second bold highlight - Once again blatant untruths, traffic used to be diverted through South Dublin to make their way South via the N11. Road capacity was a major issue as was quality of life for the residents. Once the M50 was constructed (far behind time), it took this through traffic and enabled Dublin City/County Council to reallocate lanes to bikes, buses, and use extra space it didn't have before.0
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