M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

View

CowboyTed wrote: »

Show us a country with higher usage than Netherlands... They have around 25% usage while having a huge culture in cycling and far more accommodating weather. It rains a lot more in Galway than in Netherlands, it is also way flatter thus making it easier to cycle... Netherlands has 22,000 km of bicycle lanes, have we got even a fifth of that?
And it is not cheap:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cost-of-2-7km-dublin-cycle-path-jumps-to-20m-1.3807307

So the original cost had it at over €2.59 per km...

So 20% looks highly optimistic...

And I forgot to talk about Galway being low density compared to these cities as well...

The Dutch did not start out with wonderful cycle infrastructure. Pictures of Dutch cities from the 60s show traffic congestion, pollution etc. which were just as bad as city centre Dublin.The difference is, though, that after enormous political difficulty, the Dutch set that entire “more traffic, increased congestion” model into reverse whereas we persisted with it.

At this stage in my life, I am old enough to remember discussions when the success of the Dutch model was first reported on here. Everyone agreed it would be wonderful if we had that system here as an option to use BUT, as we didn’t have it already in place, there was no point in trying to emulate it at the stage we were at back then. So, by default, in the intervening years, we largely didn’t do the work to put in cycle lanes etc with the result that, as it wasn’t safe to cycle, people hopped in their cars more and more and congestion increased as a result.

We have basically planned for congestion, by default, as we didn’t plan for any alternatives.

CowboyTed

Sam Russell wrote: »

I never mentioned the M50 in the post you quoted.

I have not suggested that the M50 not be upgraded, nor that the N7 not be upgraded. Besides it has nothing to do with Galway. You must be confusing me with another poster.

The roundabouts are a significant cause of congestion, such that some have reverted back to junctions. Particularly on Bothar na dTreabh, those junctions should have been free flow, and that road should have a bus lane on the whole of it, with buses on it providing a realistic service.

Sam,

How about a HOV lane... Actually make all the Bus lanes HOV lanes until a time the Busses are there to meet demand...

HOV (High Occupancy Vehicles 3+) would highly encourage car pooling even for a relatively short journey. Release them for off peak times...

Now you can increase the HOV lanes with less resistance...

Sam Russell

Carol25 wrote: »

"The M50 was built as a solution to Dublin's traffic problems when it was built. It was jammers after a few years so was widened to solve the traffic problem. It is now jammers.

The N7 was widened from Naas to the M50 to solve the traffic problem. It is now jammers morning and night. It did not solve the traffic problem - it just made it worse."

This is what Sam Russell said re M50 and N7 construction and upgrade works a few pages back on this thread, you can draw your own conclusions. He also points out in his current post - Dublin isn't relevant to Galway. So suddenly when an example used doesn't suit the argument, it's not relevant...sure.

You are correct - Dublin is not relevant to Galway.

1. The M50 was not built as a single project. It was built piecemeal and was not designed in one go either. It originally went from the M1 across the (conveniently built) privately owned West Link toll bridge and went to the N4, and then extended onto the N7. The M50 was never built as a single solution. That West ink bridge cost £ir10 million to build and cost the state €500 million to buy it out in 2008. All the tolls collected over the years that went to the private company - since 1990 until 2008.

2. The Galway bypass is perhaps the fifth or sixth attempt to solve the traffic problems. The M17 did not solve it - just look at the Coolagh roundabout. Bothar na dTreadbh did not solve it. The mess at Terryland and the Galway Shopping Centre did not solve it. The QCB did not solve it. The Western Distributor Rd did not solve it. The Moneenageish roundabout did not solve it, nor did putting it back as junction solve it. The Monivea Rd did not solve it.
And so on.

3. They tried to put bus lanes in like the one in Renmore or the Tuam Rd but forgot to try putting a few buses down it. That did not solve it either.

So now they have a €600 million bypass that will solve it.

Yeah - good luck with that.

[I am trying to find out what happened to the big crane they got a decade or so ago to unload all those containers in the docks but cannot find anything. Has any one got any ideas on it?].

Sam Russell

CowboyTed wrote: »

Sam,

How about a HOV lane... Actually make all the Bus lanes HOV lanes until a time the Busses are there to meet demand...

HOV (High Occupancy Vehicles 3+) would highly encourage car pooling even for a relatively short journey. Release them for off peak times...

Now you can increase the HOV lanes with less resistance...

Could not be policed in Ireland.

We cannot even police mobile phone use, - NCTs nor insurance, nor Motor Tax. Drink/drug driving is very hard to police.

There are dummies that would drive cars down the HOV lane with dummies in the car (besides themselves).

Just not possible. The only HOV that should use the bus lane is a bus.

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread is about the Galway Ring Road.

So the M50 is not rlevant so please confine your discussion the the traffic problems of Galway and its hinterland.

Thank you.

CowboyTed

View wrote: »

Discussion on the bypass has been going on for the better part of twenty years and none of it has been built yet. We could have built an extensive public transport, segregated cycle lanes and busways in that time and probably for less money had it been built over the intervening years.

There has been applications and objections... There would be many objectors to Bus and Cycle lanes too...

Where is the Public Transport... They are not using the Bus lanes they have today which were created at big expense and time... Westside Bus lane is empty, it is one of the most under utilised piece of transport in the city at great cost... Cycle lanes are expensive and effectively carry less people in Galway than roads... Both might be capable of carrying more but they don't...

CowboyTed

View wrote: »

The Dutch did not start out with wonderful cycle infrastructure. Pictures of Dutch cities from the 60s show traffic congestion, pollution etc. which were just as bad as city centre Dublin.The difference is, though, that after enormous political difficulty, the Dutch set that entire “more traffic, increased congestion” model into reverse whereas we persisted with it.

At this stage in my life, I am old enough to remember discussions when the success of the Dutch model was first reported on here. Everyone agreed it would be wonderful if we had that system here as an option to use BUT, as we didn’t have it already in place, there was no point in trying to emulate it at the stage we were at back then. So, by default, in the intervening years, we largely didn’t do the work to put in cycle lanes etc with the result that, as it wasn’t safe to cycle, people hopped in their cars more and more and congestion increased as a result.

We have basically planned for congestion, by default, as we didn’t plan for any alternatives.

Sorry but I have lived in Amsterdam and the have a very dedicated cycle network that was built mainly in the late 1800s...
"Cycling became popular in the Netherlands a little later than it did in the United States and Britain who experienced their bike booms in the 1880s, but by the 1890s the Dutch were already building dedicated paths for cyclists"

So it will cost the cost of a motorway to get at least parity with the infrastructure. Then there is the

• Lack of Cycle Culture
• Climate (Netherland lot drier)
• Hills (Netherlands is flat)

Can you give us a price on 22,000km of cycle lanes?

CowboyTed

CowboyTed wrote: »

Sorry but I have lived in Amsterdam and the have a very dedicated cycle network that was built mainly in the late 1800s...
"Cycling became popular in the Netherlands a little later than it did in the United States and Britain who experienced their bike booms in the 1880s, but by the 1890s the Dutch were already building dedicated paths for cyclists"

Umm, please do some research. Seriously, you are wayyyy off base

CowboyTed

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could not be policed in Ireland.

We cannot even police mobile phone use, - NCTs nor insurance, nor Motor Tax. Drink/drug driving is very hard to police.

There are dummies that would drive cars down the HOV lane with dummies in the car (besides themselves).

Just not possible. The only HOV that should use the bus lane is a bus.

So you worry about the policing of it...

This has worked many times abroad and can be simplified by displaying a HOV sign in the car...

We have Bus lanes used by taxis... It just takes a decent fine and name in paper, that will stop them...

As for the mannequins... That fools no one...

Well placed cameras can also do a job and there is probably a AI software that can spot cars which are breaking...

But the advantages are pretty high... Now more HOV lanes can be allocated, there could even take a a lane on one of the bridges and have a dedicated lane across the city for 4-5 hours a day...
Now you could have the space to get a proper bus network... Thats why I say review each year...

CowboyTed

Deleted User wrote: »

Umm, please do some research. Seriously, you are wayyyy off base

https://roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/netherlands/

In the Netherlands the same realisation came in the mid-1970s. According to the Dutch Bicycle Master Plan of 1999, “From 1950 to 1975, the bicycle was almost entirely excluded from the government’s vision"

Dutch have had cycle paths going way back... I have lived there, they have paths which are simly not big enough for cars which have been there a long time..

cgcsb

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Key PT goals for Galway that I can see

• City Centre cycleways
• Cycle links from West side to east side
• Busconnects fully implemented and whatever QBCs are identified implemented
• Commuter rail upgrade and additional stations from at least Oranmore, out to Athenry ideally
• Look at feasibility of a Gluas/Galway Rapid Transit system from the West to East

A fair chunk of them could be looked at concurrently with the planning of the ring road without killing that project, but I think there's a fear that they may be successful enough to lower the AADT to the point the ring road isn't justified any more, so they don't want to move on PT projects.

You've just hit the nail squarely on the head. If say about 10% of the road budget, €60m, were spent on bus corridors, cycle ways bus priority and an expanded bus fleet, journeys across Galway would be reliably fast and the case for a ring road would fall completely apart.

cgcsb

CowboyTed wrote: »

Show us a country with higher usage than Netherlands... They have around 25% usage while having a huge culture in cycling and far more accommodating weather. It rains a lot more in Galway than in Netherlands, it is also way flatter thus making it easier to cycle... Netherlands has 22,000 km of bicycle lanes, have we got even a fifth of that?
And it is not cheap:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cost-of-2-7km-dublin-cycle-path-jumps-to-20m-1.3807307

So the original cost had it at over €2.59 per km...

So 20% looks highly optimistic...

And I forgot to talk about Galway being low density compared to these cities as well...

Not sure if you're being obtuse or if you genuinely haven't a breeze what you're talking about.

The Netherlands is an entire country. Galway is a City (town depending on definition) Cities have more cycling as a commuter mode than entire countries for obvious reasons generally speaking. You are comparing apples and oranges.

cgcsb

CowboyTed wrote: »

Problem is the buses will get the roads but they won't have the buses to use them. They won't be on time. Sorry we fell for this scam once too often...

If we're talking about blowing €600mil on a road, there is enough budget to buy more buses. The reason buses are delayed is traffic, remove the traffic = no delays.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

If we're talking about bowing €600mil on a road, there is enough budget to buy more buses. The reason buses are delayed is traffic, remove the traffic = no delays.

1% of the €600 million would buy 20 buses (ono) which would provide a significant number to provide a service for Galway if it had a network of bus lanes and bus priority routes.

SeanW

CowboyTed wrote: »

Problem is the buses will get the roads but they won't have the buses to use them. They won't be on time. Sorry we fell for this scam once too often...

Brest has traffic problems just as bad as Galway... I agree with you that the bypass should be further out but at this stage we need to get it going and I am willing to compromise..

But Brest does have a bypass, the D67 is an East-West route that avoids the city completely.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/48.3595113,-4.7518777/48.4440152,-4.4572066/@48.4150295,-4.6025633,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

Let's be clear - what is being sought here for Galway is something that is - as far as anyone can prove - more or less unprecedented. In Europe, even small cities on the road to not much of anything are typically bypassed or have alternative routes around them that do not involve putting through travelers onto city streets. If the Galway bypass is cancelled, it will be (so far as I can tell) unusual if not unique in this regard.

CowboyTed

cgcsb wrote: »

Not sure if you're being obtuse or if you genuinely haven't a breeze what you're talking about.

The Netherlands is an entire country. Galway is a City (town depending on definition) Cities have more cycling as a commuter mode than entire countries for obvious reasons generally speaking. You are comparing apples and oranges.

What I am pointing out is trying to point out is Netherlands flattest and pretty dry countries in Europe and has a Cyclist rate at 25%...
They have way more infrastructure, the culture of cycling is there...

What is the target for cycling in Galway and show us a realistic plan that can achieve that number...

What I am seeing here is just punish drivers.... There is nothing in place... Galway has two bus lanes in Westside and Renmore and neither carry as many people as the car lane...

I offered a way of hybirding these lanes with HOV usage but lack of compromise is obvious... Have you got a financially viable bus system that can carry more than cars?
How many buses will be running per hour, how may in rush hour, how are they paid for in off peak times...

I am asking for realistic projections not pie in the sky ideas...

No Bus Connect corridor until we know the routes, frequency and financial viability plan...
Sorry we fell for this one before in Westside, we need the end result this time before this starts...

CowboyTed

SeanW wrote: »

But Brest does have a bypass, the D67 is an East-West route that avoids the city completely.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/48.3595113,-4.7518777/48.4440152,-4.4572066/@48.4150295,-4.6025633,12z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0

Let's be clear - what is being sought here for Galway is something that is - as far as anyone can prove - more or less unprecedented. In Europe, even small cities on the road to not much of anything are typically bypassed or have alternative routes around them that do not involve putting through travelers onto city streets. If the Galway bypass is cancelled, it will be (so far as I can tell) unusual if not unique in this regard.

I am in total agreement with you...

I personally think ours is too close in and would prefer it out more, but will take what we can get...

I think the naysayers argument is that there is little traffic between Connemara and Rest of Ireland and that we don't need it...

My view is the city needs it to breath. These bypasses are used to move around the city and further on... I have a number of friends who work in Tuam, Loughrea, Athlone and live in Knocknacarra and visa versa... A number of people living in those towns working in University or Hospital...

That is why I am asking for there projections with costs around Cycling and Public transport... Galway not that big and our climate and culture is closer to Inverness than Central Europe city...

CowboyTed

CowboyTed wrote: »

What I am pointing out is trying to point out is Netherlands flattest and pretty dry countries in Europe

Actually its got very similar weather to Galway

CowboyTed wrote: »

and has a Cyclist rate at 25%...
They have way more infrastructure, the culture of cycling is there...

It was transformed due to multiple road deaths of cyclists which led to mass demonstrations which demanded lower priority for private cars, increased investment in cycling infrastructure and continued investment which has been going on since the mid 70's

CowboyTed wrote: »

What is the target for cycling in Galway and show us a realistic plan that can achieve that number...

See the GTS

CowboyTed

CowboyTed wrote: »

Galway not that big .

Correct, its possible to cycle from one end to the other in 35-40 mins

No ring road needed, just change up the priority of road users

Carol25

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually its got very similar weather to Galway
<snip>
It was transformed due to multiple road deaths of cyclists which led to mass demonstrations which demanded lower priority for private cars, increased investment in cycling infrastructure and continued investment which has been going on since the mid 70's
<snip>
See the GTS

If the M50 isn't relevant to this thread, neither are these pictures and comparisons of Amsterdam. How is this not pulled up on also?

Carol25

Sam Russell wrote: »

1% of the €600 million would buy 20 buses (ono) which would provide a significant number to provide a service for Galway if it had a network of bus lanes and bus priority routes.

You can't have a network of bus priority routes with no room for them on the current roads, no outer ring road, no capacity, no space. I'll keep saying until I'm blue in the face as it's simply a fact of Galway city. Narrow streets, poor road capacity, not enough bridges across the Corrib and poor infrastructure in general.

mcbert

Instead of the same old arguments on both sides, over and over again, are there any update on what IS happening now since Covid? What about the public hearing? How did that go?

cgcsb

CowboyTed wrote: »

What I am pointing out is trying to point out is Netherlands flattest and pretty dry countries in Europe and has a Cyclist rate at 25%...
They have way more infrastructure, the culture of cycling is there...

What is the target for cycling in Galway and show us a realistic plan that can achieve that number...

An utterly daft comparison. Galway is a town, the Netherlands is a country, no point comparing the two. Compare Galway to Amsterdam or copenhagen where half of commutes are by bike. I don't think there is an official target for modal share in Galway because there are no serious transport goals for Galway at the moment.

CowboyTed wrote: »

What I am seeing here is just punish drivers.... There is nothing in place... Galway has two bus lanes in Westside and Renmore and neither carry as many people as the car lane...

Can you present the traffic count data for this claim? It doesn't matter really since virtually no money has been spent on public transport anyway so providing 2 scrappy bits of bus lane in a city with an utterly disfunctional transport system isn't going to reveal much.

CowboyTed wrote: »

I offered a way of hybirding these lanes with HOV usage but lack of compromise is obvious...

Unworkable and illogical in Europe.

CowboyTed wrote: »

Have you got a financially viable bus system that can carry more than cars?
How many buses will be running per hour, how may in rush hour, how are they paid for in off peak times...

What is a 'financially viable' bus system? buses in Dublin for example carry more people than cars if that's what you mean. We haven't seen bus connects yet but I'd imagine the main routes would have 10-15 minute frequency. They'd be paid for in off peak times the same way they are paid for at all times, i.e. through the NTA contracts. I'm starting to think you don't actually understand this topic.

CowboyTed wrote: »

I am asking for realistic projections not pie in the sky ideas...

No Bus Connect corridor until we know the routes, frequency and financial viability plan...
Sorry we fell for this one before in Westside, we need the end result this time before this starts...

I'm sure the new government will run a public consultation. The Galway transport strategy can give you a flavour:
https://www.galwaycity.ie/galway-transport-strategy

cgcsb

CowboyTed wrote: »

.. I have a number of friends who work in Tuam, Loughrea, Athlone and live in Knocknacarra and visa versa... A number of people living in those towns working in University or Hospital...

:rolleyes:

Carol25

Carol25 wrote: »

You can't have a network of bus priority routes with no room for them on the current roads, no outer ring road, no capacity, no space. I'll keep saying until I'm blue in the face as it's simply a fact of Galway city. Narrow streets, poor road capacity, not enough bridges across the Corrib and poor infrastructure in general.

Yes you can and its happening in Galway

The Salmon Weird bridge is getting a pedestrian/cycle bridge put in alongside. Once thats done, the Salmon Weir Bridge will be restricted to buses, cyclists, pedestrians and taxis only. There will not be through traffic.

As they implement that theey will also be stopping private cars going down Eglinton Street and around the square, again restricting to only pedestrians, cyclists, buses and taxis.

See here further info

Note, this will be happening prior to any ring road and will further restrict the movement of private cars in the city

mcbert

mcbert wrote: »

Instead of the same old arguments on both sides, over and over again, are there any update on what IS happening now since Covid? What about the public hearing? How did that go?

The public hearing was cut short, to be resumed at a later date as yet unknown

mcbert

Deleted User wrote: »

The public hearing was cut short, to be resumed at a later date as yet unknown

Thanks. Has there been any public comment by anyone involved in any way on the project? Or are we cometely in the dark on if/when/what happens next?

CowboyTed

Galway
The city receives an average of 1,156 mm (45.51 in) of precipitation annually, which is evenly distributed throughout the year.

Amsterdam
Amsterdam's average annual precipitation is 838 millimetres

So that 75% less to start...

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/netherlands/amsterdam/climate
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/ireland/galway/climate

As you can see they have larger summer rainfall, this is generally thunder showers which dumps large amounts in short space of time...

Amsterdam is considerably drier...

mcbert

mcbert wrote: »

Thanks. Has there been any public comment by anyone involved in any way on the project? Or are we cometely in the dark on if/when/what happens next?

No, no comments. There's not much to say about the project for them until ABP make a decision and that won't happen until the hearings are completed and they've had time to go through everything in detail. Don't expect an answer until 2021 would be my guess

Sam Russell

CowboyTed wrote: »

Galway
The city receives an average of 1,156 mm (45.51 in) of precipitation annually, which is evenly distributed throughout the year.

Amsterdam
Amsterdam's average annual precipitation is 838 millimetres

So that 75% less to start...

https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/netherlands/amsterdam/climate
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/ireland/galway/climate

As you can see they have larger summer rainfall, this is generally thunder showers which dumps large amounts in short space of time...

Amsterdam is considerably drier...

It is 28% less, not 75%.

In Galway, if you can see he Burren, it is going to rain. If you cannot see the Burren, it is raining.