M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

Well I rest my case if Cgcsb's 'job' is in this area...Galway is doomed.

Or maybe you don't know everything Karen? :rolleyes:

Carol25 wrote: »

Just because I vehemently disagree with your opinion does not make me a troll.

No, what makes you a troll is that no matter how many posters present to you the flat fact (with links to all data on the subject) that the number of Conemara - the East and South of the Country peak hour journeys is tiny, you ignore this and return to stating the opposite.

Carol25 wrote: »

Your opinion is what's ruining the City presently delaying the building of this road, and prolonging everyone's misery in my opinion.

Your opinion is uninformed as we have established.

Carol25 wrote: »

May I point out also the continued disregard of posters on this thread for traffic heading West towards Connemara, do those busy roads overflowing with traffic heading towards Carraroe and Moycullen/Oughterard/Clifden not exist? Do people not take trips to Connemara to enjoy nature or shouldn't? Do many tourists not go there or will we pretend they don't exist also? Because anytime we head in that direction, the City traffic is terrible, and the roads out that direction are crowded with cars/trucks/cyclists, etc.

If 50% of regular Galway City commuters used sustainable modes, the existing roads would have plenty of spare capacity to accommodate the tiny number of Conemara-rest of Ireland trips.

Carol25 wrote: »

you cannot free up the inner roads for buses, bike lanes, etc.

This is not true, the Galway transport Strategy sets out a number car bans that would free up city centre streets.

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

Or, we could conclude that some road users should be on purpose-designated roads instead of city streets to begin with, and that while buses, cycle lanes are a good idea, they don't solve the problem of people doing long distance East-West travel being stuck on the Headford Road?

90% of peak hour commutes are going to-from the city, not bypassing it. Building public transport infrastructure greatly reduces the number of cars that compose that 90%, therefore allowing space for the 10% that bypass the City and improving journey times for the 90%.

SeanW

Not every journey is a commute. And not every commute will be suited to buses or bicycles. And no amount of money spent on these projects will negate the fact that anyone going East-West has to go up and down the Headford Road and other city streets on which they have no business.

Further, you will have some difficulty finding other cities that force through traffic - no matter how small an amount - onto city streets.

Take for example Leeuwarden in the Netherlands. Like Galway, it has a small population around 100,000 and is on the road to not much of anything. Yet it has a full bypass along its N31, their equivalent of the Galway N6.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1978456,5.7855304,11376m/data=!3m1!1e3

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

Not every journey is a commute. And not every commute will be suited to buses or bicycles.

They don't have to be. if 50% of peak hour commutes are by sustainable mode, the problem is effectively solved. Cars don't have to be completely abolished, for a public transport only solution to be effective.

SeanW wrote: »

Further, you will have some difficulty finding other cities that force through traffic - no matter how small an amount - onto city streets.

Brest, France has a similar inner relief road like Galway with at grade junctions/roundabouts.

SeanW wrote: »

Take for example Leeuwarden in the Netherlands. Like Galway, it has a small population around 100,000 and is on the road to not much of anything. Yet it has a full bypass along its N31, their equivalent of the Galway N6.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1978456,5.7855304,11376m/data=!3m1!1e3

Was it built in the 2020s? the world is different now, we know adding more road capacity to urban areas isn't a good thing.

SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

They don't have to be. if 50% of peak hour commutes are by sustainable mode, the problem is effectively solved. Cars don't have to be completely abolished, for a public transport only solution to be effective.



Brest, France has a similar inner relief road like Galway with at grade junctions/roundabouts.



Was it built in the 2020s? the world is different now, we know adding more road capacity to urban areas isn't a good thing.

Well, there's a difference between "effectively solved" and solved and even if we concede that the alternative PT only solution will do that, it still leaves long distance through traffic going up and down the Headford Road. Still leaving city streets to act as stroads.

As to Brest, France, it has a Northern rural bypass of sorts, the D67, which you can use if you are going West of the city and don't want to go on its streets. Indeed, the D67 is probably best for going to places like Saint-Renan or maybe Guilers.

As for Leeuwarden, that bypass was only designed in 2011, and as such would have opened only in the last few years.
https://west8.com/projects/infrastructure/leeuwarden_by_pass/

CowboyTed

SeanW wrote: »

Well, there's a difference between "effectively solved" and solved and even if we concede that the alternative PT only solution will do that, it still leaves long distance through traffic going up and down the Headford Road. Still leaving city streets to act as stroads.

As to Brest, France, it has a Northern rural bypass of sorts, the D67, which you can use if you are going West of the city and don't want to go on its streets. Indeed, the D67 is probably best for going to places like Saint-Renan or maybe Guilers.

As for Leeuwarden, that bypass was only designed in 2011, and as such would have opened only in the last few years.
https://west8.com/projects/infrastructure/leeuwarden_by_pass/

Looks like getting to work in Brest isn't that great:
https://www.numbeo.com/traffic/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&country2=Ireland&city1=Brest&city2=Galway

Brest has also double the population of Galway and more importantly double the density to support a tram system.

CowboyTed

CowboyTed wrote: »

Looks like getting to work in Brest isn't that great:
https://www.numbeo.com/traffic/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&country2=Ireland&city1=Brest&city2=Galway

Brest has also double the population of Galway and more importantly double the density to support a tram system.

Will ya go way with your 14 points of data trying to pass it off as analysis

Gas altogether

DrSerious3

I am in favour of the bypass but whether you think it is a good idea or not, please shelve the ridiculous Gluas idea. Absolutely crazy to even consider building a light rail for a city this small with such a lack of density. The alternative to the bypass is better public transport and cycling infrastructure. There will never be a Gluas in our lifetime.

Sam Russell

DrSerious3 wrote: »

I am in favour of the bypass but whether you think it is a good idea or not, please shelve the ridiculous Gluas idea. Absolutely crazy to even consider building a light rail for a city this small with such a lack of density. The alternative to the bypass is better public transport and cycling infrastructure. There will never be a Gluas in our lifetime.

What do we do with all the Luas trams when Dublin embraces metros following the overwhelming push when Metrolink finally opens?

timmyntc

Sam Russell wrote: »

What do we do with all the Luas trams when Dublin embraces metros following the overwhelming push when Metrolink finally opens?

Stick them in Cork and call it the Cluas

Sam Russell

timmyntc wrote: »

Stick them in Cork and call it the Cluas

There could be enough for one for every City in the country.

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

As to Brest, France, it has a Northern rural bypass of sorts, the D67, which you can use if you are going West of the city and don't want to go on its streets.

Eh no, it is not rural it is the same/lower grade of road than the current N6:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@48.4132854,-4.4872189,3a,75y,238.27h,75.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shVizLI5zxLeE3TCNCxpirA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DhVizLI5zxLeE3TCNCxpirA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D334.87018%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

cgcsb

DrSerious3 wrote: »

I am in favour of the bypass but whether you think it is a good idea or not, please shelve the ridiculous Gluas idea. Absolutely crazy to even consider building a light rail for a city this small with such a lack of density. The alternative to the bypass is better public transport and cycling infrastructure. There will never be a Gluas in our lifetime.

I think there will be. The City will increase in density over the coming years. However a functional bus system and network of cycleways is the immediate objective.

Cookiemunster

Sam Russell wrote: »

What do we do with all the Luas trams when Dublin embraces metros following the overwhelming push when Metrolink finally opens?

They'll be just as packed as they are now as the lines will meet different needs and cover different areas. I'm not sure how you think that's an argument for a tram system in a low density city of 80k.

Sam Russell

Cookiemunster wrote: »

They'll be just as packed as they are now as the lines will meet different needs and cover different areas. I'm not sure how you think that's an argument for a tram system in a low density city of 80k.

Clearly Cork would warrant a Luas before Galway. Knocknacarra to Parkmore is about 10 km. A 4km to 7 km extension to Claregalway, if that made sense.

Bus Connect is clearly the first stage, with an adequate supply of bus lanes, and bus priority.

tharlear

Sam Russell
"luas" Now it runs the longest trams in the world that are jammers all day long. So, they are building a Metro

The M50 was built as a solution to Dublin's traffic problems when it was built. It was jammers after a few years so was widened to solve the traffic problem. It is now jammers.

So, your assessment of the m50 is that the m50 lead to more cars so it should not have been widened as this led to even more cars.

But the building the luas has led to more passengers so therefore we should not build the metro as it will lead to even more passengers.

its the same logic.

Foreign direct investment (FDI) in Ireland would never have reached the levels it did without the m50. The interconnect and metro north do need to be built but irish governments rarely invest in the future over current account spending.

The quincentennial bridge allowed Galway to expand in the 80/90s and attract FDI. Many of the current multinationals have stated that the lack of a bypass will affect future investment. No amount of buses or bicycle lanes will change that. Chances of new companies picking Galway for FDI will be effected by current companies attitudes, and the bypass.

For Galway to continue to grow it needs to be bypassed (what ever you want to call it, ring road etc,). It makes no sense to build a non motorway bypass. And yes the bypass will mean more jobs, more houses and more people. With luck in 40 years with a population that's 3 times what it is now we maybe be talking about a Gluas or another bypass if they don't do this one right.

Sam Russell

tharlear wrote: »

So, your assessment of the m50 is that the m50 lead to more cars so it should not have been widened as this led to even more cars.

But the building the luas has led to more passengers so therefore we should not build the metro as it will lead to even more passengers.

its the same logic.

Foreign direct investment (FDI) in Ireland would never have reached the levels it did without the m50. The interconnect and metro north do need to be built but irish governments rarely invest in the future over current account spending.

The quincentennial bridge allowed Galway to expand in the 80/90s and attract FDI. Many of the current multinationals have stated that the lack of a bypass will affect future investment. No amount of buses or bicycle lanes will change that. Chances of new companies picking Galway for FDI will be effected by current companies attitudes, and the bypass.

For Galway to continue to grow it needs to be bypassed (what ever you want to call it, ring road etc,). It makes no sense to build a non motorway bypass. And yes the bypass will mean more jobs, more houses and more people. With luck in 40 years with a population that's 3 times what it is now we maybe be talking about a Gluas or another bypass if they don't do this one right.

The M50 was built but the public transport was not. There should have been a proper rail service from Kildare into Dublin.

What Galway really needs is local government reform. They have made no decent decisions in the last 50 years.

What ever happened to the big crane they got for the docks to unload all those containers?

DrSerious3

cgcsb wrote: »

I think there will be. The City will increase in density over the coming years. However a functional bus system and network of cycleways is the immediate objective.

For posterity, when would you predict the Gluas would be built? I reckon 2090.

SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

Eh no, it is not rural it is the same/lower grade of road than the current N6:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@48.4132854,-4.4872189,3a,75y,238.27h,75.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shVizLI5zxLeE3TCNCxpirA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DhVizLI5zxLeE3TCNCxpirA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D334.87018%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Except that no-one has to use the D205. There are plenty of East-West routes that can be used instead, with the D67 being a very good alternative to the D205.

The D67 can be easily accessed from the main N12 road and runs roughly from the local airport out to the coast at Le Conquet. You also have the D13 which gives another route to the North and West. People travelling around the Brest region have options that people travelling around the Galway region do not. The comparison is not valid.

yer man!

Personally I think the bypass is needed but only if it comes with strict conditions on the future of the current Galway road network. Once the bypass is opened, lanes and some streets should become public transport only within the city. You could argue this should be done now but that would cause absolute uproar.

Galway isn't unique, many other cities/towns in Ireland, UK and the continent have faced the same issues.

grumpy old man

yer man! wrote: »

Personally I think the bypass is needed but only if it comes with strict conditions on the future of the current Galway road network. Once the bypass is opened, lanes and some streets should become public transport only within the city. You could argue this should be done now but that would cause absolute uproar.

Galway isn't unique, many other cities/towns in Ireland, UK and the continent have faced the same issues.

Galway is unique.
It's built adjacent to the flood plain of a lake/river complex.
This has resulted in development on a 13km east west axis and only 3km deep inland.
I'd wager that the bridge built for this bypass will be the last. There is no physical space left to build an additional bridge.

I can certainly see both sides of the PT Vs Road arguments. There are many that argue that mitigation must be guaranteed if this road proceeds: better bus/tram systems, P&R etc.

However this misses the most important point IMHO. That point is that most development west of the Corrib needs to be curtailed in addition to the PT mitigation. Otherwise, this bypass will also become a bottleneck with 20 years, maybe less.

Leonard Hofstadter

grumpy old man wrote: »

However this misses the most important point IMHO. That point is that most development west of the Corrib needs to be curtailed in addition to the PT mitigation. Otherwise, this bypass will also become a bottleneck with 20 years, maybe less.

And that's exactly why this needs to be a motorway so as to stop any development close to it, otherwise we end up with a Mahon Point type of situation with the ridiculous tailbacks that can occur there at times.

anna disappointed

Galway used to be a beautiful place to visit.
Now people sit in their large automobiles for an hour trying to bring their children to school and under pressure to get to work on time.
It is an old city with a great history.
I do not accept that even a change in infrastructure or the introduction of cycling paths would solve the problem. I wish that were so.
The mentality of Galway citizens is different from that in the Netherlands, for example, where cycling is culturally, an integral part of life.
In Galway the ego factor drives the behaviour of many citizens who falsely believe that driving an expensive car and emitting toxic gases into the environment is a sign of status and affluence.
The problems in Galway are partly due, therefore, to the misconceptions held by people with wealth- the Noveau Riche.
Educated people with humility and substance understand the importance of the environment and they lack the need to display their wealth or achievements. They live a life in harmony with other people and the environment in an unassuming way. Galway does not need more greed and money, it needs a change in mindset of it´s citizens in order to be great again

anna disappointed

anna disappointed wrote: »

Galway used to be a beautiful place to visit.
Now people sit in their large automobiles for an hour trying to bring their children to school and under pressure to get to work on time.
It is an old city with a great history.
I do not accept that even a change in infrastructure or the introduction of cycling paths would solve the problem. I wish that were so.
The mentality of Galway citizens is different from that in the Netherlands, for example, where cycling is culturally, an integral part of life.
In Galway the ego factor drives the behaviour of many citizens who falsely believe that driving an expensive car and emitting toxic gases into the environment is a sign of status and affluence.
The problems in Galway are partly due, therefore, to the misconceptions held by people with wealth- the Noveau Riche.
Educated people with humility and substance understand the importance of the environment and they lack the need to display their wealth or achievements. They live a life in harmony with other people and the environment in an unassuming way. Galway does not need more greed and money, it needs a change in mindset of it´s citizens in order to be great again

Why are you posting this in multiple forums?

Reputable Rog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why are you posting this in multiple forums?

To show her apparent disappointment.

yer man!

grumpy old man wrote: »

Galway is unique.
It's built adjacent to the flood plain of a lake/river complex.
This has resulted in development on a 13km east west axis and only 3km deep inland.
I'd wager that the bridge built for this bypass will be the last. There is no physical space left to build an additional bridge.

I can certainly see both sides of the PT Vs Road arguments. There are many that argue that mitigation must be guaranteed if this road proceeds: better bus/tram systems, P&R etc.

However this misses the most important point IMHO. That point is that most development west of the Corrib needs to be curtailed in addition to the PT mitigation. Otherwise, this bypass will also become a bottleneck with 20 years, maybe less.

The solution to the problem would not be a unique one. Build a bypass to move the traffic away. Then start reclaiming the city roads for recreation and public transport. This would then include fast, cheap P&R using said reclaimed public transport space. If you open Google maps and look at most large towns in Europe, they all follow the same model. Move traffic out and public transport in.

Pete_Cavan

yer man! wrote: »

The solution to the problem would not be a unique one. Build a bypass to move the traffic away. Then start reclaiming the city roads for recreation and public transport. This would then include fast, cheap P&R using said reclaimed public transport space. If you open Google maps and look at most large towns in Europe, they all follow the same model. Move traffic out and public transport in.

The roads you are referring to at most of those large European towns are part of a wider network which facilitates traffic travelling between that town and often multiple other large towns. A fair bit of the traffic is actually bypassing said town, they are only there because the road from their starting point to their destination goes by said town. The town itself will generally have long standing well developed active/public transport networks and/or most people will live within the town and not have to travel long distances for education/work/leisure in the town and therefore there isn't need for an oversized outer distributor road. They didn't have to start reclaiming roads, they had their priorities right from a long time ago.

This is completely different to Galway where very little traffic is actually looking to bypass the place, there is no very little west of it. The majority of the traffic is travelling in and around the town itself and the proposed "bypass" is really a distributor road.

spacetweek

The Galway Bypass will not solve Galway's transport problems. It's mostly being built because of the lack of bridges over the Corrib, and the fact that most residential development is happening in the west end, and the employment centres are in the east. But surely you could have just added another bridge and some connecting roads, or widened the Quincentennial bridge. Then the bypass could have been single carriageway at most, if it was needed at all.

A moratorium is needed on any further extension of western suburbs further to the west. All new development must be in the east and centre. Buses every 15 mins all day. Protected cycle lanes everywhere. A Gluas probably isn't needed but if bus lanes on the existing bypass aren't enough it could be considered.

Unfortunately in Ireland most of the above are done by different agencies so there's no possibility of a co-ordinated approach.

Carol25

spacetweek wrote: »

The Galway Bypass will not solve Galway's transport problems. It's mostly being built because of the lack of bridges over the Corrib, and the fact that most residential development is happening in the west end, and the employment centres are in the east. But surely you could have just added another bridge and some connecting roads, or widened the Quincentennial bridge. Then the bypass could have been single carriageway at most, if it was needed at all.

A moratorium is needed on any further extension of western suburbs further to the west. All new development must be in the east and centre. Buses every 15 mins all day. Protected cycle lanes everywhere. A Gluas probably isn't needed but if bus lanes on the existing bypass aren't enough it could be considered.

Unfortunately in Ireland most of the above are done by different agencies so there's no possibility of a co-ordinated approach.

This is absolute mis-information and haven't provided one source to back up your claims.
1. I regularly travel to South Dublin where they have a huge increase in bike lanes & they're ever growing, Luas, frequent buses and much improved infrastructure. All thanks to the M50 bringing all the through traffic away from these areas. A lot of people I know there have now invested in good bikes, and they're very happy with the way things have improved.
2. The population density of Galway isn't sufficient for a Gluas that would cost more than the road and not benefit all in the City or surrounding areas or solve the problems.
3. It's quite obvious if the outer road/bypass takes a lot of the through traffic from the smaller City roads - they can then be converted to facilitate safe bike lanes, efficient bus lanes and improve everyone's quality of life in these areas.
4. I agree with development West of the Corrib, it is also shocking Galway has been left with the mid 1980s Quincentennial bridge as their last construction across the Corrib when thousands of people need access daily to UHG - some from as far away as the North West.

cgcsb

Carol25 wrote: »

1. I regularly travel to South Dublin where they have a huge increase in bike lanes & they're ever growing, Luas, frequent buses and much improved infrastructure. All thanks to the M50 bringing all the through traffic away from these areas. A lot of people I know there have now invested in good bikes, and they're very happy with the way things have improved.

Galway isn't Dublin, the geography, population and economics are not comparable.

Carol25 wrote: »

2. The population density of Galway isn't sufficient for a Gluas that would cost more than the road and not benefit all in the City or surrounding areas or solve the problems.

If the population density isn't sufficient for luas, then it isn't sufficient for an urban motorway distributor road. It's been established the proposed road will not solve any existing problem.

Carol25 wrote: »

3. It's quite obvious if the outer road/bypass takes a lot of the through traffic from the smaller City roads - they can then be converted to facilitate safe bike lanes, efficient bus lanes and improve everyone's quality of life in these areas.

No need to blow 600mil for that, it can be done now. As many posters have pointed out more than 90% of trips are local and short distance.