What can be done to introduce Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture here?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 15-06-2020 2:03pm #1

I lived in the Netherlands for a period of time and I cycled a lot there. I also cycled in neighbouring Germany.

The Netherlands is a cycling paradise. The country is flat as a pancake in most parts which helps but the infrastructure is incredible.

In most towns there are cycle lanes on each side of the road. Motorists are so diligent and careful when overtaking. There is bike parking EVERYWHERE, outside supermarkets, train stations, bus depots, you name it. When I worked there, more people cycled than drove. That amazed me.

I never encountered vehicles parked in the cycle lanes.

My proposal would be as follows:

It could be done here, but at considerable expense. It might involve CPOing 1-2 metres of land on both sides of the road to add cycle tracks.

Any new motorway or dual carriageway being built, must have an adjacent cycle lane separated with a sufficient wall or fence.

Greenways to be built parallel to all railway tracks where feasibly possible.

Lower speed limits in urban area with cameras at pinch points.

Weeks or months of ad campaigns. It might be draconian but every non-disabled person should have to do a compulsory cycle around the vicinity of the test centre after passing their test before their licence is issued to show them what it's like on two wheels.

As to what can be done to change mindsets, I have no idea. It's probably never going to change.

Cookiemunster · 15-06-2020 2:14pm

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

It could be done here, but at considerable expense. It might involve CPOing 1-2 metres of land on both sides of the road to add cycle tracks.

And that's where your plan falls down, as already seen with Bus connects in Dublin, people are very very averse to losing any of their front gardens. So much so that Bus Connects has been redesigned so as not take the gardens.

If the new government gets off the ground then there'll be €1m a day available to cycling/walking infrastructure. Christ knows how they intend to spend it though.

07Lapierre · 15-06-2020 6:20pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And that's where your plan falls down, as already seen with Bus connects in Dublin, people are very very averse to losing any of their front gardens. So much so that Bus Connects has been redesigned so as not take the gardens.

If the new government gets off the ground then there'll be €1m a day available to cycling/walking infrastructure. Christ knows how they intend to spend it though.

Disagree most of our roads are already wide enough to accommodate descent cycle lanes.. we just reduce the number of car lanes.

CatInABox · 15-06-2020 6:24pm

Dublin City Council are looking at making almost all of Dublin a 30km zone. If that happens, then car lanes don't have to be so wide, giving more room for cycle lanes without the need for CPOing as much.

07Lapierre · 15-06-2020 6:45pm

When you look at old photos of Dublin Streets, it really brings home just how wide they really are!

https://images.app.goo.gl/cULCxm7aqFEcd98Y8

is_that_so · 15-06-2020 6:48pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Disagree most of our roads are already wide enough to accommodate descent cycle lanes.. we just reduce the number of car lanes.

First you need to give people in cars another way of using the road. There's no "just" statement that produces a practical answer.

07Lapierre · 15-06-2020 6:57pm

is_that_so wrote: »

First you need to give people in cars another way of using the road. There's no "just" statement that produces a practical answer.

No u give people an alternative to using their private car.

15-06-2020 6:59pm

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Duckjob · 15-06-2020 7:00pm

is_that_so wrote: »

First you need to give people in cars another way of using the road. There's no "just" statement that produces a practical answer.

People over-using the cars because they don't see a safe viable alternative. Safe viable alternatives hard to implement because of people's overuse of their cars.

To avoid a chicken and egg situation you need to forge ahead and make changes to tip the balance definitively in favour of active travel. Reallocate road space with proper grade-A infrastructure that people will want to use and people will use it.

Such a situation benefits everybody, including those who really still need to drive (which is most of us at some time or another) as many that have the option will jump to an alternative if that alternative is attractive enough.

Cookiemunster · 15-06-2020 7:08pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Disagree most of our roads are already wide enough to accommodate descent cycle lanes.. we just reduce the number of car lanes.

So you obviously missed the NIMBY objections to the bus connects plans in Dublin. You can't 'just' reduce the number of car lanes when you have a planning system like ours that allows NIMBYs to stall, delay and eventually get plans watered down.

Generally your talking about adding cycle and bus lanes while removing / reducing traffic lanes, but more importantly, on street parking and in some cases (not every road is wide enough) property. This will bring the NIMBYs out in their masses.

namloc1980 · 15-06-2020 7:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Our urban areas are flat. Dublin isn't festooned with mountains in the city. The only possible hilly city is Cork and even then most of it is fairly flat aside from parts of the Northside.

blackbox · 15-06-2020 7:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Agree. First you need to bulldoze every hill in the country.

07Lapierre · 15-06-2020 7:15pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So you obviously missed the NIMBY objections to the bus connects plans in Dublin. You can't 'just' reduce the number of car lanes when you have a planning system like ours that allows NIMBYs to stall, delay and eventually get plans watered down.

Generally your talking about adding cycle and bus lanes while removing / reducing traffic lanes, but more importantly, on street parking and in some cases (not every road is wide enough) property. This will bring the NIMBYs out in their masses.

Agreed it’ll never happen... I know that, you know that but we both know that the streets are physically wide enough for cycle lanes. But once you introduce politics and planning, it all goes pear shaped!

07Lapierre · 15-06-2020 7:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Dublin is not hilly!

Grassey · 15-06-2020 7:22pm

Cookiemunster wrote:

If the new government gets off the ground then there'll be â‚¬1m a day available to cycling/walking infrastructure. Christ knows how they intend to spend it though.

180km of greenway a year...

07Lapierre · 15-06-2020 7:24pm

Look at any street in Dublin that currently has on street parking. Remove the on street parking and you DOUBLE the width of the road instantly! Replace the on street parking with bike lanes and cars are still catered for.

gmacww · 16-06-2020 9:11am

07Lapierre wrote: »

Look at any street in Dublin that currently has on street parking. Remove the on street parking and you DOUBLE the width of the road instantly! Replace the on street parking with bike lanes and cars are still catered for.

Only don't get too creative...

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/hapless-drivers-in-dublin-struggling-to-get-to-grips-with-new-cycle-lanes/

07Lapierre · 16-06-2020 9:21am

gmacww wrote: »

Only don't get too creative...

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/hapless-drivers-in-dublin-struggling-to-get-to-grips-with-new-cycle-lanes/

Well this tread is titled "Dutch style cycling", so hopefully they will go onto youtube and do a bit of research on what constitutes a bike lane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

CatInABox · 16-06-2020 9:23am

gmacww wrote: »

Only don't get too creative...

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/hapless-drivers-in-dublin-struggling-to-get-to-grips-with-new-cycle-lanes/

Most cycling groups are saying that this is a furore over nothing, it takes time for people to get used to new infrastructure. Even at that, some of those cars were parked there over night while the works were going on, if you look under the blue car, you can see that the council weren't able to paint the line. From other images, it's clear that there was a few cars there while it was being done.

More recent videos and photos show the parking being used correctly.

Mrs OBumble · 16-06-2020 9:51am

07Lapierre wrote: »

Look at any street in Dublin that currently has on street parking. Remove the on street parking and you DOUBLE the width of the road instantly! Replace the on street parking with bike lanes and cars are still catered for.

So where do the cars get moved to? The ones used to take elderly parents to hospital appointments etc .... they won't just magically disappear.

07Lapierre · 16-06-2020 9:53am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So where do the cars get moved to? The ones used to take elderly parents to hospital appointments etc .... they won't just magically disappear.

eh they park in the Hospital car park? and as more people cycle, less hospital appointments will be needed.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 16-06-2020 10:23am

07Lapierre wrote: »

eh they park in the Hospital car park? and as more people cycle, less hospital appointments will be needed.

I think she might be referring to on street parking belonging to houses.
Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

07Lapierre · 16-06-2020 10:27am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I think she might be referring to on street parking belonging to houses.
Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

I'd love one of these, but i cant have one as i've nowhere to put it! (and i cant afford it!

)

https://www.fraseryachts.com/uploads/image/Pages/BUY/Yachts%20for%20Sale/lady_ella_s_1500x700px.jpg

ax530 · 16-06-2020 10:40am

Amsterdam has built car parks under some canals. seems a much bigger proportionof the population live in city within cycling distance of work/school/creche.

A good start in Ireland would be encouraging kids to cycle to school, start the habit young and they may keep it up and demand good infrastructure as get older.
I think if N routes were made safer for cycling especially between towns and villages it would allow lot more people in Ireland to cycle. As many have tight fast N routes between home & school which makes cycling to school difficult and dangerous.

Das Reich · 16-06-2020 10:41am

What's the poputational density of Netherlands? 10 times the Irish? Add that to the fact that Ireland have only one big city, a rainy and cold weather, VERY but VERY windy, largest proportion on rural population in Western Europe, public transport outside Dublin nearly absent that forces people to have car, hilly enough countryside without a large plain. Ireland could be compared to Norway, not to Netherlands.

07Lapierre · 16-06-2020 10:45am

Das Reich wrote: »

What's the poputational density of Netherlands? 10 times the Irish? Add that to the fact that Ireland have only one big city, a rainy and cold weather, VERY but VERY windy, largest proportion on rural population in Western Europe, public transport outside Dublin nearly absent that forces people to have car, hilly enough countryside without a large plain. Ireland could be compared to Norway, not to Netherlands.

Check out no. 7...

https://www.wired.com/story/most-bike-friendly-cities-2019-copenhagenize-design-index/

Kermit.de.frog · 16-06-2020 10:55am

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

Stark · 16-06-2020 10:58am

Grassey wrote: »

180km of greenway a year...

That was my worry. Greenways are nice and all but we need a lot more than just investment in recreational cycling.

07Lapierre · 16-06-2020 10:59am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

Agree... we don't want to go too far. If we're not careful, we'll soon be putting mayo on our fries!

Stark · 16-06-2020 11:01am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

You're right. Let's just revert to mediocrity and aim to be the poor cousins of the UK while we always do.

One thing I've learned over the years, blindly leading for the sake of leading is overrated. Good leaders nearly always start with "Who is the best in class for what we're looking to achieve and what can we learn from them?". And it's well accepted that the Dutch are the best in class for our particular goal.

Kermit.de.frog · 16-06-2020 11:05am

Stark wrote: »

You're right. Let's just revert to mediocrity and aim to be the poor cousins of the UK while we always do.

If there is one country in the world we should not emulate in pretty much anything it's the UK.

We shouldn't be aiming to emulate anyone is my point.

We should come up with our own solutions. Naturally some will be similar to best practice elsewhere but we need to have more confidence in our ability to innovate here is all i'm saying.

What can be done to introduce Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture here?

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