What can be done to introduce Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture here?

Duckjob

MJohnston wrote: »

Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.

If we're to aim for a proper dutch style biking culture, then people commuting to work is only one aspect of what we need to consider.

People need to be able to use their bikes to go to meet a friend for coffee, go the cinema, go for a meal etc and be reasonably confident their bike will still be there and in one piece when they get back. Only way to accomplish this would be well attended 24hr secure bike parking facilities.

Nice avatar btw

Garibaldi?

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

Its definitely an issue but not an irish one, its one in general.

Facilities like Drury St are welcome and long overdue.

However, something as simple as a good lock costing approx 10% of the bikes value, coupled with a second lock, strategic placement of those locks and smart location choices can do a lot to protect your bike.

Duckjob

Deleted User wrote: »

Its definitely an issue but not an irish one, its one in general.

Facilities like Drury St are welcome and long overdue.

However, something as simple as a good lock costing approx 10% of the bikes value, coupled with a second lock, strategic placement of those locks and smart location choices can do a lot to protect your bike.

There's plenty of useless scumbags that, even if they can't have your bike will stamp the wheels in just to make themselves feel better.

IMO you need to set the bar higher than just stopping your bike from getting stolen, you need to set it to how can we have our bikes kept properly safe while we're away from them.

Drury St is a good start point but we need a massive scale up of high quality attended bike parking if we want the dutch model.

Geuze

galwaytt wrote: »

It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

Motor tax = 1 bn approx
VRT 2018 = 885m

Fuel duty, auto diesel 2018 = 1.5bn
Petrol duty = 600m???

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/excise/net-receipts-by-commodity.pdf

I calculate approx 4bn in motoring taxes???

Garibaldi?

MJohnston wrote: »

Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.

What about people who might need to park when going shopping or to an appointment somewhere. If you're in the car you just park legally and responsibly and lock it up. Even the most expensive and robust locks have failed to protect bikes. A difficult challenge this!

Garibaldi?

MJohnston wrote: »

Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.

What about people who might need to park when going shopping or to an appointment somewhere. If you're in the car you just park legally and responsibly and lock it up. Even the most expensive and robust locks have failed to protect bikes. A difficult challenge this!

Garibaldi?

Duckjob wrote: »

There's plenty of useless scumbags that, even if they can't have your bike will stamp the wheels in just to make themselves feel better.

IMO you need to set the bar higher than just stopping your bike from getting stolen, you need to set it to how can we have our bikes kept properly safe while we're away from them.

Drury St is a good start point but we need a massive scale up of high quality attended bike parking if we want the dutch model.

Absolutely agree with this. Even if you're bike is not targeted you've no peace of mind going about your business and not knowing if it will be there when you return. There are hundreds of great new bikes out there including electric ones but what use is that when security is such an issue!

MJohnston

Duckjob wrote: »

If we're to aim for a proper dutch style biking culture, then people commuting to work is only one aspect of what we need to consider.

People need to be able to use their bikes to go to meet a friend for coffee, go the cinema, go for a meal etc and be reasonably confident their bike will still be there and in one piece when they get back. Only way to accomplish this would be well attended 24hr secure bike parking facilities.

Nice avatar btw

My point is this isn't some unknowable, impossible problem - the solution is to provide secure bike parking everywhere, in huge numbers.

Hell, I'd be happy to let Brown Thomas or whoever convert part of their car parks into secure bike parking, and charge me a euro for a day.

This is a problem with a known, easily done solution.

MJohnston

Garibaldi? wrote: »

What about people who might need to park when going shopping or to an appointment somewhere. If you're in the car you just park legally and responsibly and lock it up. Even the most expensive and robust locks have failed to protect bikes. A difficult challenge this!

It's not difficult at all, the problem is just that we devote 90% of our city infrastructure to cars. I'll not repeat my post above, but the problems are solvable fairly easily.

whisky_galore

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

I noticed in Italy all they have around towns and cities are bog standard high nelly Dutch style bikes, not carbon fibre space age non stick frying pan things that cost €€€€.
Why? Because even locked up your expensive bike will be stolen, that's why.

07Lapierre

More confirmation that roads are wide enough already.

https://twitter.com/j_m_fitton/status/1274697750056181763?s=21

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

I think all multi storey car parks should have one level CPOed for bike parking. The state could buy one floor and hand over the equivalent of 10 years' parking revenue for one floor.

If secure cages are provided you could store hundreds of bikes if stored upright (maybe even a thousand spaces).

The QPark on Marlboro Street and QPark Stephen's Green come to mind. A nominal fee of a tenner per week would encourage people to cycle in and have piece of mind and cheaper than the bus.

I think I heard a figure of €600 million to make public transport free for all. I would happily pay increased motor tax and see a city centre toll introduced to fund this.

Carrot, stick, etc.

Garibaldi?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I think all multi storey car parks should have one level CPOed for bike parking. The state could buy one floor and hand over the equivalent of 10 years' parking revenue for one floor.

If secure cages are provided you could store hundreds of bikes if stored upright (maybe even a thousand spaces).

The QPark on Marlboro Street and QPark Stephen's Green come to mind. A nominal fee of a tenner per week would encourage people to cycle in and have piece of mind and cheaper than the bus.

I think I heard a figure of €600 million to make public transport free for all. I would happily pay increased motor tax and see a city centre toll introduced to fund this.

Carrot, stick, etc.

This sounds like a great idea. At least you'd be sure of bike security in the city centre whatever about elsewhere. Bike security is a huge issue and a barrier to the green agenda. Unlike a car a bike can be picked up and thrown in the back of a van, never to be seen again.

Cookiemunster

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I think all multi storey car parks should have one level CPOed for bike parking. The state could buy one floor and hand over the equivalent of 10 years' parking revenue for one floor.

If secure cages are provided you could store hundreds of bikes if stored upright (maybe even a thousand spaces).

The QPark on Marlboro Street and QPark Stephen's Green come to mind. A nominal fee of a tenner per week would encourage people to cycle in and have piece of mind and cheaper than the bus.

Bikes are quite small. I think taking a floor of every single carpark would be overkill. And I doubt politically you'd get away with CPOing them either.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I think I heard a figure of €600 million to make public transport free for all. I would happily pay increased motor tax and see a city centre toll introduced to fund this.

Carrot, stick, etc.

The problem with making public transport free is that we already don't have enough public transport now while were charging for use. Where would the extra passengers fit on already packed trains, trams and buses? No carrot or stick is going to put people on something that doesn't yet exist.

There needs to be a huge capacity increase and more options (metrolink, new tram lines in the cities, bus connects, etc) before before you'll entice more people on to PT whether it's free or not.

liamog

Garibaldi? wrote: »

This sounds like a great idea. At least you'd be sure of bike security in the city centre whatever about elsewhere. Bike security is a huge issue and a barrier to the green agenda. Unlike a car a bike can be picked up and thrown in the back of a van, never to be seen again.

Main reason I stopped commuting by bike was that the first one was stolen, and the second had the wheels cut off. My bike4work finally came back up so am ordering a replacement. The level of theft/vandalism is ridiculous. I was told by the Garda that bikes are shipped out of the country, how are containers full of random bicycles making it through our ports?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

liamog wrote: »

Main reason I stopped commuting by bike was that the first one was stolen, and the second had the wheels cut off. My bike4work finally came back up so am ordering a replacement. The level of theft/vandalism is ridiculous. I was told by the Garda that bikes are shipped out of the country, how are containers full of random bicycles making it through our ports?

Little or no identity checks performed on intra EU travel and no custom checks whatsoever.
Ships to Britain are considered domestic routes so even more lax.

Thelonious Monk

I don't know but I wouldn't bother parking my bike in one of those fancy car parks for convenience reasons, if I was going shopping in town or something as I usually find suitable places as is right on the street, although I have left it in the Drury st one once or twice. I think it's fairly safe to leave bikes with a good lock in busier parts of Dublin as long as you don't leave it too long, and this is coming from someone who's had 4 or 5 bikes stolen in the last 5 or 6 years but it was mostly down to my own carelessness. Also if your bike is a ridiculously expensive one you shouldn't really be leaving it anywhere at all except inside your house.

AlekSmart

liamog wrote: »

Main reason I stopped commuting by bike was that the first one was stolen, and the second had the wheels cut off. My bike4work finally came back up so am ordering a replacement. The level of theft/vandalism is ridiculous. I was told by the Garda that bikes are shipped out of the country, how are containers full of random bicycles making it through our ports?

I understand that the Gardai have Cycle Theft programme whereby you can voluntarily register your Cycle details on the PULSE system,which allows for a far greater chance of your Cycle being recovered and returned to you.

Cycle theft and pure mindless vandalism remains perhaps THE most unsavoury element of Bicycle use in Dublin.

Does anybody have any comparison statistics with,for example......Holland.....?

Pete_Cavan

I cycle a lot in Switzerland (both in a city and rural leisure cycling) and many urban area cycle lanes are really little more than a line painted on the road/footpath. Of course there are also largely segregated roadside infrastructure and totally off road routes and all that but on many streets it can be fairly basic with the cycle lane running right through where buses pull in and alongside parked cars. I find that to be perfectly acceptable once the space for bikes is respected and adequate provision is made for cyclists at junctions. Along with designated space for cyclists, dedicated cyclist lights is probably the most important aspect. Allowing cyclists to move off before traffic and navigating cyclists through junctions while not being at the mercy of drivers makes a huge difference. Obviously BusConnects and the multiple greenway type projects go beyond this but the point is simply ensuring enough space for the cyclist and focusing on junctions makes a big difference.

In BusConnects consultations, I did suggest that full dedicated cyclist traffic signalling should be provided as part of the project. It can be incorporated quite easily as part of the initial installation. Such lights could also be used to allow cyclists do things which other traffic can't. For example, at pedestrian crossings, where there are no conflicting traffic movements, cyclists could get a flashing yellow light meaning give way to pedestrians, otherwise you can carry on through. Also left turn on red lights (again where no conflicting traffic movements). Some might say those things happen anyway, and they do, but it would be better to formalise it in a way rather than turning a blind eye.

On cycle parking, I don't think large scale cycle parking in multi-storey car parks, while useful, is going to be very attractive. Smaller clusters with space for up to 50 bikes dotted around is a better option. They would be more convenient and having them in full public view will deter thiefs. People want to be able to leave their bike near the shop/pub/wherever they are going to. There are plenty of places where on street parking spaces can be removed to provide bike parking without the need to buy anything. I know people here give out about multi-storey car parks but I'd rather have the cars parked in them than littering the streets.

Brian?

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

That is not the main problem. In fact, bike theft is rampant in the Netherlands. Probably the worst in Europe. As a result people mainly cycle cheap, beaten up bikes.

Brian?

AlekSmart wrote: »

I understand that the Gardai have Cycle Theft programme whereby you can voluntarily register your Cycle details on the PULSE system,which allows for a far greater chance of your Cycle being recovered and returned to you.

Cycle theft and pure mindless vandalism remains perhaps THE most unsavoury element of Bicycle use in Dublin.

Does anybody have any comparison statistics with,for example......Holland.....?

Next time I'm in the centre of Eindhoven I'll take a picture of the way bikes are stores here. 99% are just put on a stand with the back wheel locked. There are thousands outside train station alone, just left there over night. Very few are worth stealing.

Bike theft will always happen. But if you have the infrastructure in place to actually make cycling in the city convenient and enjoyable it's a minor irration. I cycle a 1980s Raleigh racing bike everywhere, cost me €50. If it gets stolen, I'll replace it with something else that cost €50. Most people here feel the same.

whisky_galore

Brian? wrote: »

Next time I'm in the centre of Eindhoven I'll take a picture of the way bikes are stores here. 99% are just put on a stand with the back wheel locked. There are thousands outside train station alone, just left there over night. Very few are worth stealing.

Bike theft will always happen. But if you have the infrastructure in place to actually make cycling in the city convenient and enjoyable it's a minor irration. I cycle a 1980s Raleigh racing bike everywhere, cost me €50. If it gets stolen, I'll replace it with something else that cost €50. Most people here feel the same.

It's pointless buying an expensive bike for locking up around a city. People need to get this into their heads.

It's like buying a brand new Ferrari and parking it up any old where and expecting no-one is going to interfere with it in your absence.

Podge_irl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I cycle a lot in Switzerland (both in a city and rural leisure cycling) and many urban area cycle lanes are really little more than a line painted on the road/footpath. Of course there are also largely segregated roadside infrastructure and totally off road routes and all that but on many streets it can be fairly basic with the cycle lane running right through where buses pull in and alongside parked cars. I find that to be perfectly acceptable once the space for bikes is respected and adequate provision is made for cyclists at junctions. Along with designated space for cyclists, dedicated cyclist lights is probably the most important aspect. Allowing cyclists to move off before traffic and navigating cyclists through junctions while not being at the mercy of drivers makes a huge difference. Obviously BusConnects and the multiple greenway type projects go beyond this but the point is simply ensuring enough space for the cyclist and focusing on junctions makes a big difference.

The cycles lanes may be little more than paint, but they are pretty ubiquitous. Also, as you say, the cyclist specific lights. All this helps acclimatize drivers to expecting cyclists to be there. Drivers in Switzerland, ultimately, are simply a lot more respectful of cyclists and their road space. It is probably not as easy for insecure cyclists as e.g. the Netherlands, but I do think it shows that fully segregated infrastructure is not necessarily needed as long as drivers are more careful of their surroundings.

Stupid tram tracks are still a total pain in the ass (and occasionally face).

Pete_Cavan

It is part of the influence of the Bike2work scheme, people buy expensive bikes, more so than they actually need, and obviously brand new. In other countries, people often own multiple cheap bikes, often one is left at a train station, rather than one expensive one. Cheaper bikes would suit most people but we incentivise spending more.

MJohnston

I think our hillier geography also contributes a little bit to people not wanting to ride around on cheapies.

Regardless, it's not a tactic that is sustainable as we move into the e-bike era, where the bikes will naturally be unavoidably expensive.

whisky_galore

MJohnston wrote: »

I think our hillier geography also contributes a little bit to people not wanting to ride around on cheapies.

Regardless, it's not a tactic that is sustainable as we move into the e-bike era, where the bikes will naturally be unavoidably expensive.

Even cheap bikes have gears.
More fool people naively buying the most expensive bike in the catalogue because they can, lock it with a lock from Dealz down a dark alley and then it vanishes. The nerve of these thieves.

They'll have a windfall with these e bikes.

Pete_Cavan

MJohnston wrote: »

Regardless, it's not a tactic that is sustainable as we move into the e-bike era, where the bikes will naturally be unavoidably expensive.

Yes but removable batteries will make stealing an ebike less attractive.

whisky_galore

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes but removable batteries will make stealing an ebike less attractive.

They can still render it unusable by kicking the bejesus out of it.

Pete_Cavan

whisky_galore wrote: »

They can still render it unusable by kicking the bejesus out of it.

Well yes but that is likely to draw attention. Also, mindless vandalism is a different issue to bikes being stolen for other reasons, if a bike is unusable it is less likely to be stolen. Preventing mindless vandalism is a topic for another thread and goes way beyond Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture.

Lord Glentoran

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Well yes but that is likely to draw attention. Also, mindless vandalism is a different issue to bikes being stolen for other reasons, if a bike is unusable it is less likely to be stolen. Preventing mindless vandalism is a topic for another thread and goes way beyond Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture.

Feed all the wee fuds who drive a lot of the theft and vandalism Amsterdam style space cakes, and they’ll be too demotivated to do anything. It’s not as if they are productive members of society right now.

AlekSmart

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Feed all the wee fuds who drive a lot of the theft and vandalism Amsterdam style space cakes, and they’ll be too demotivated to do anything. It’s not as if they are productive members of society right now.

You may not be far wrong My Lord.

I regularly,as in 3 times a week,in Dublin City Centre come across Bikes being interefered with,often within metres of a Garda at the GPO or in the College Green area.

Usually it will be a pair of the many 'Juveniles',recognisable to those who must use the City Centre for work reasons,who will have a hammer,and or a pry bar concealed within their grey tracksuits.

The speed with which they operate is notable as is the nonchalance they display if challenged.

I am 100% satisfied that they would whack you with that hammer as quick as blink at you.

They are the dominant species in their little corner of Dublin,and they will protect that to the N'th degree.

It is highly unlikely these people will ever become contributors into our Society,but as of now,the same Society has no idea of what to do with them,other than to feed their need to possess other peoples property ?

Thelonious Monk

Brian? wrote: »

That is not the main problem. In fact, bike theft is rampant in the Netherlands. Probably the worst in Europe. As a result people mainly cycle cheap, beaten up bikes.

I was surprised by this, my Dutch friend was telling me his bikes get stolen all the time and then he just goes and buys a new one for 30 euro or whatever. It's rampant in Amsterdam.

Brian?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I was surprised by this, my Dutch friend was telling me his bikes get stolen all the time and then he just goes and buys a new one for 30 euro or whatever. It's rampant in Amsterdam.

Yep, we all just get on with it.

In Eindhoven it's gotten better the last couple of years, the police are setting up stings for people selling the second hand. Still happens though.

jackofalltrades

With the advent of electric bikes and especially electric cargo bikes the advice off "just buy a cheap bike" doesn't work anymore.
And I don't think it ever worked anyway as cheap bikes seem to be stolen as well.
We need some kind of secure, supervised bike storage in large urban areas, so people can lock their bikes and feel safe.
Otherwise we're not going to get the mode shift to cycling that everyone wants.
According to this article 1/6 people who have a bike stolen don't replace it.
We can't afford to haemorrhage that many cyclists, given the rate at which bikes are being stolen.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

jackofalltrades wrote: »

With the advent of electric bikes and especially electric cargo bikes the advice off "just buy a cheap bike" doesn't work anymore.
And I don't think it ever worked anyway as cheap bikes seem to be stolen as well.
We need some kind of secure, supervised bike storage in large urban areas, so people can lock their bikes and feel safe.
Otherwise we're not going to get the mode shift to cycling that everyone wants.
According to this article 1/6 people who have a bike stolen don't replace it.
We can't afford to haemorrhage that many cyclists, given the rate at which bikes are being stolen.

We need to have sting operations.
Have a Garda waiting by in a hidden location as soon as the bait bike is lifetd, the scum is arrested.
This is NOT entrapment before anyone says so. For it to be entrapment, there has to be coercion.

whisky_galore

People need to grow up a small bit and realise theft in a city is a fact of life. They must be very easily put off cycling by theft, if someone had their car stolen does that put them off buying a replacement car?

No one is going to fund fancy 24hr supervised lock ups in every nook and cranny. How much, if anything, would you be prepared to pay to use one?

Grassey

whisky_galore wrote:

No one is going to fund fancy 24hr supervised lock ups in every nook and cranny. How much, if anything, would you be prepared to pay to use one?

I'd be willing to fund it from my road tax!

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

whisky_galore wrote: »

People need to grow up a small bit and realise theft in a city is a fact of life. They must be very easily put off cycling by theft, if someone had their car stolen does that put them off buying a replacement car?

No one is going to fund fancy 24hr supervised lock ups in every nook and cranny. How much, if anything, would you be prepared to pay to use one?

If we have supervised car lock ups why not supervised bike lockups?

What's the harm in CPOing a small section over every multistorey car park?

whisky_galore

Grassey wrote: »

I'd be willing to fund it from my road tax!

Your road tax (sic.) doesnt pay for your car parking, why should it pay for your bike parking?

whisky_galore

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

If we have supervised car lock ups why not supervised bike lockups?

What's the harm in CPOing a small section over every multistorey car park?

Would you pay to use them? And how much?

Grassey

Sorry forgot to use the sarcasm font



Thought it was obvious, as in I wouldn't pay for it...

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

whisky_galore wrote: »

Would you pay to use them? And how much?

Motor tax funds general taxation.
I'd happily see increased motor tax incorporated into fuel prices to encourage people onto bikes.

The revenue generated would fund bike parking and the CPOing of car park spaces. People already pay for car parking to drive their metal box through the city so yes, I'd happily continue paying a nominal amount for safe bike storage.

Stark

whisky_galore wrote: »

People need to grow up a small bit and realise theft in a city is a fact of life. They must be very easily put off cycling by theft, if someone had their car stolen does that put them off buying a replacement car?

If cars were stolen as often as bikes were stolen, it would have an effect. As it stands, car theft in the city is extremely rare and it's very cheap to get a "fire and theft" add-on to your already mandatory third party insurance (cheap because it's so rare).

On the other hand, I do know people who are put off from going hiking and other activities outside the city because break-ins are so common.

magicbastarder

at a rough guess, it's probably cheaper to insure an average car against theft than it is to ensure a bike against it (assuming you're not insuring it as contents insurance for theft from your house).

loyatemu

bike thefts off the street are mostly opportunistic. I constantly see people posting pictures on facebook of their nice new bikes that have been stolen, and when people ask what type of lock they were using it's invariably some crappy cable lock. Cheap (looking) but well maintained bike + decent lock used properly will deter most thieves, or at least encourage them to go for a more attractive target.

I'm not mad on the idea of "secure" bike parks. If I wanted to park in a building 20 minutes walk from my desitination, I'd drive. One of the big advantages of cycling is being able to park at the destination. Just install Sheffield stands everywhere.

stevek93

whisky_galore wrote: »

People need to grow up a small bit and realise theft in a city is a fact of life. They must be very easily put off cycling by theft, if someone had their car stolen does that put them off buying a replacement car?

No one is going to fund fancy 24hr supervised lock ups in every nook and cranny. How much, if anything, would you be prepared to pay to use one?

In the Netherlands some of the bike lock up spaces are looked after by the community.

stevek93

Just noticed on Adverts, the bike category is under sports & fitness, why not put it under transport or something to that effect? It kinda shows again how we view bikes in this country..

whisky_galore

stevek93 wrote: »

In the Netherlands some of the bike lock up spaces are looked after by the community.

But this is Ireland, where someone else; the government, city council or EU magic money tree is supposed to pay for it. Deafening silence or clever comments here when asked if they would pay to use a bike lock up.

pleasant Co.

stevek93 wrote: »

Just noticed on Adverts, the bike category is under sports & fitness, why not put it under transport or something to that effect? It kinda shows again how we view bikes in this country..

Because there isn't a "transport" category on adverts

whisky_galore

stevek93 wrote: »

Just noticed on Adverts, the bike category is under sports & fitness, why not put it under transport or something to that effect? It kinda shows again how we view bikes in this country..

I imagine that would reflect the money and perhaps lobbying involved in leisure cycling trumping the bikes with the shopping baskets.