What can be done to introduce Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture here?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

I lived in the Netherlands for a period of time and I cycled a lot there. I also cycled in neighbouring Germany.

The Netherlands is a cycling paradise. The country is flat as a pancake in most parts which helps but the infrastructure is incredible.

In most towns there are cycle lanes on each side of the road. Motorists are so diligent and careful when overtaking. There is bike parking EVERYWHERE, outside supermarkets, train stations, bus depots, you name it. When I worked there, more people cycled than drove. That amazed me.

I never encountered vehicles parked in the cycle lanes.

My proposal would be as follows:

It could be done here, but at considerable expense. It might involve CPOing 1-2 metres of land on both sides of the road to add cycle tracks.

Any new motorway or dual carriageway being built, must have an adjacent cycle lane separated with a sufficient wall or fence.

Greenways to be built parallel to all railway tracks where feasibly possible.

Lower speed limits in urban area with cameras at pinch points.

Weeks or months of ad campaigns. It might be draconian but every non-disabled person should have to do a compulsory cycle around the vicinity of the test centre after passing their test before their licence is issued to show them what it's like on two wheels.

As to what can be done to change mindsets, I have no idea. It's probably never going to change.

Cookiemunster

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

It could be done here, but at considerable expense. It might involve CPOing 1-2 metres of land on both sides of the road to add cycle tracks.

And that's where your plan falls down, as already seen with Bus connects in Dublin, people are very very averse to losing any of their front gardens. So much so that Bus Connects has been redesigned so as not take the gardens.

If the new government gets off the ground then there'll be €1m a day available to cycling/walking infrastructure. Christ knows how they intend to spend it though.

07Lapierre

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And that's where your plan falls down, as already seen with Bus connects in Dublin, people are very very averse to losing any of their front gardens. So much so that Bus Connects has been redesigned so as not take the gardens.

If the new government gets off the ground then there'll be €1m a day available to cycling/walking infrastructure. Christ knows how they intend to spend it though.

Disagree most of our roads are already wide enough to accommodate descent cycle lanes.. we just reduce the number of car lanes.

CatInABox

Dublin City Council are looking at making almost all of Dublin a 30km zone. If that happens, then car lanes don't have to be so wide, giving more room for cycle lanes without the need for CPOing as much.

07Lapierre

When you look at old photos of Dublin Streets, it really brings home just how wide they really are!

https://images.app.goo.gl/cULCxm7aqFEcd98Y8

is_that_so

07Lapierre wrote: »

Disagree most of our roads are already wide enough to accommodate descent cycle lanes.. we just reduce the number of car lanes.

First you need to give people in cars another way of using the road. There's no "just" statement that produces a practical answer.

07Lapierre

is_that_so wrote: »

First you need to give people in cars another way of using the road. There's no "just" statement that produces a practical answer.

No u give people an alternative to using their private car.

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Duckjob

is_that_so wrote: »

First you need to give people in cars another way of using the road. There's no "just" statement that produces a practical answer.

People over-using the cars because they don't see a safe viable alternative. Safe viable alternatives hard to implement because of people's overuse of their cars.

To avoid a chicken and egg situation you need to forge ahead and make changes to tip the balance definitively in favour of active travel. Reallocate road space with proper grade-A infrastructure that people will want to use and people will use it.

Such a situation benefits everybody, including those who really still need to drive (which is most of us at some time or another) as many that have the option will jump to an alternative if that alternative is attractive enough.

Cookiemunster

07Lapierre wrote: »

Disagree most of our roads are already wide enough to accommodate descent cycle lanes.. we just reduce the number of car lanes.

So you obviously missed the NIMBY objections to the bus connects plans in Dublin. You can't 'just' reduce the number of car lanes when you have a planning system like ours that allows NIMBYs to stall, delay and eventually get plans watered down.

Generally your talking about adding cycle and bus lanes while removing / reducing traffic lanes, but more importantly, on street parking and in some cases (not every road is wide enough) property. This will bring the NIMBYs out in their masses.

namloc1980

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Our urban areas are flat. Dublin isn't festooned with mountains in the city. The only possible hilly city is Cork and even then most of it is fairly flat aside from parts of the Northside.

blackbox

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Agree. First you need to bulldoze every hill in the country.

07Lapierre

Cookiemunster wrote: »

So you obviously missed the NIMBY objections to the bus connects plans in Dublin. You can't 'just' reduce the number of car lanes when you have a planning system like ours that allows NIMBYs to stall, delay and eventually get plans watered down.

Generally your talking about adding cycle and bus lanes while removing / reducing traffic lanes, but more importantly, on street parking and in some cases (not every road is wide enough) property. This will bring the NIMBYs out in their masses.

Agreed it’ll never happen... I know that, you know that but we both know that the streets are physically wide enough for cycle lanes. But once you introduce politics and planning, it all goes pear shaped!

07Lapierre

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely the issue lies with terrain....holland/denamark being relatively flat countries??

Dublin is not hilly!

Grassey

Cookiemunster wrote:

If the new government gets off the ground then there'll be €1m a day available to cycling/walking infrastructure. Christ knows how they intend to spend it though.

180km of greenway a year...

07Lapierre

Look at any street in Dublin that currently has on street parking. Remove the on street parking and you DOUBLE the width of the road instantly! Replace the on street parking with bike lanes and cars are still catered for.

gmacww

07Lapierre wrote: »

Look at any street in Dublin that currently has on street parking. Remove the on street parking and you DOUBLE the width of the road instantly! Replace the on street parking with bike lanes and cars are still catered for.

Only don't get too creative...

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/hapless-drivers-in-dublin-struggling-to-get-to-grips-with-new-cycle-lanes/

07Lapierre

gmacww wrote: »

Only don't get too creative...

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/hapless-drivers-in-dublin-struggling-to-get-to-grips-with-new-cycle-lanes/

Well this tread is titled "Dutch style cycling", so hopefully they will go onto youtube and do a bit of research on what constitutes a bike lane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

CatInABox

gmacww wrote: »

Only don't get too creative...

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/hapless-drivers-in-dublin-struggling-to-get-to-grips-with-new-cycle-lanes/

Most cycling groups are saying that this is a furore over nothing, it takes time for people to get used to new infrastructure. Even at that, some of those cars were parked there over night while the works were going on, if you look under the blue car, you can see that the council weren't able to paint the line. From other images, it's clear that there was a few cars there while it was being done.

More recent videos and photos show the parking being used correctly.

Mrs OBumble

07Lapierre wrote: »

Look at any street in Dublin that currently has on street parking. Remove the on street parking and you DOUBLE the width of the road instantly! Replace the on street parking with bike lanes and cars are still catered for.

So where do the cars get moved to? The ones used to take elderly parents to hospital appointments etc .... they won't just magically disappear.

07Lapierre

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So where do the cars get moved to? The ones used to take elderly parents to hospital appointments etc .... they won't just magically disappear.

eh they park in the Hospital car park? and as more people cycle, less hospital appointments will be needed.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

07Lapierre wrote: »

eh they park in the Hospital car park? and as more people cycle, less hospital appointments will be needed.

I think she might be referring to on street parking belonging to houses.
Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

07Lapierre

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I think she might be referring to on street parking belonging to houses.
Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

I'd love one of these, but i cant have one as i've nowhere to put it! (and i cant afford it! )

https://www.fraseryachts.com/uploads/image/Pages/BUY/Yachts%20for%20Sale/lady_ella_s_1500x700px.jpg

ax530

Amsterdam has built car parks under some canals. seems a much bigger proportionof the population live in city within cycling distance of work/school/creche.

A good start in Ireland would be encouraging kids to cycle to school, start the habit young and they may keep it up and demand good infrastructure as get older.
I think if N routes were made safer for cycling especially between towns and villages it would allow lot more people in Ireland to cycle. As many have tight fast N routes between home & school which makes cycling to school difficult and dangerous.

Das Reich

What's the poputational density of Netherlands? 10 times the Irish? Add that to the fact that Ireland have only one big city, a rainy and cold weather, VERY but VERY windy, largest proportion on rural population in Western Europe, public transport outside Dublin nearly absent that forces people to have car, hilly enough countryside without a large plain. Ireland could be compared to Norway, not to Netherlands.

07Lapierre

Das Reich wrote: »

What's the poputational density of Netherlands? 10 times the Irish? Add that to the fact that Ireland have only one big city, a rainy and cold weather, VERY but VERY windy, largest proportion on rural population in Western Europe, public transport outside Dublin nearly absent that forces people to have car, hilly enough countryside without a large plain. Ireland could be compared to Norway, not to Netherlands.

Check out no. 7...

https://www.wired.com/story/most-bike-friendly-cities-2019-copenhagenize-design-index/

Kermit.de.frog

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

Stark

Grassey wrote: »

180km of greenway a year...

That was my worry. Greenways are nice and all but we need a lot more than just investment in recreational cycling.

07Lapierre

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

Agree... we don't want to go too far. If we're not careful, we'll soon be putting mayo on our fries!

Stark

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

You're right. Let's just revert to mediocrity and aim to be the poor cousins of the UK while we always do.

One thing I've learned over the years, blindly leading for the sake of leading is overrated. Good leaders nearly always start with "Who is the best in class for what we're looking to achieve and what can we learn from them?". And it's well accepted that the Dutch are the best in class for our particular goal.

Kermit.de.frog

Stark wrote: »

You're right. Let's just revert to mediocrity and aim to be the poor cousins of the UK while we always do.

If there is one country in the world we should not emulate in pretty much anything it's the UK.

We shouldn't be aiming to emulate anyone is my point.

We should come up with our own solutions. Naturally some will be similar to best practice elsewhere but we need to have more confidence in our ability to innovate here is all i'm saying.

Stark

"Come up with our own solutions" and not use decades of experience and solutions that have been tested elsewhere? We've seen plenty of times what happens when city planners "come up with their own solutions" for cycle infrastructure.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

ax530 wrote: »

Amsterdam has built car parks under some canals. seems a much bigger proportionof the population live in city within cycling distance of work/school/creche.

A good start in Ireland would be encouraging kids to cycle to school, start the habit young and they may keep it up and demand good infrastructure as get older.
I think if N routes were made safer for cycling especially between towns and villages it would allow lot more people in Ireland to cycle. As many have tight fast N routes between home & school which makes cycling to school difficult and dangerous.

We have to tackle the mindset of the adults first.

If I'm ever passing the local national school in the morning or afternoon, the designated space for the school bus is always filled with mothers in their army tank SUVs, forcing the bus driver to open the doors on the road.

Add to that, a huge chunk of kids being driven to school or getting the bus live less than 1 km away. There's a lad who lives beside me who gets the school bus (700 metres from school) and the poor lad is like the Michelin Man.

Kermit.de.frog

Stark wrote: »

We've seen plenty of times what happens when city planners "come up with their own solutions" for cycle infrastructure.

But they haven't.


They have gone with the cheapest solutions.


That's different.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But they haven't.
They have gone with the cheapest solutions.
That's different.

What exactly is wrong with wanting to emulate the Dutch or Danish model?

If it works and is proven to be effective from decades of research, then what's the issue?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

Because this is what happens when Irish planners try to do it instead of looking at what has worked elsewhere

Grassey

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

Park on another street their permit covers?
Store their car in a private car park?
Sell car and use GoCar?
Move to a property with offstreet parking space?
Abandon car on footpath?

whisky_galore

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

Our culture is "never plan anything", "tis my land" and "shur twill be grand".

07Lapierre

Grassey wrote: »

Park on another street their permit covers?
Store their car in a private car park?
Sell car and use GoCar?
Move to a property with offstreet parking space?
Abandon car on footpath?

I've a certain amount of sympathy for anyone who bought a house that only has on-street parking. The reality is that over the years, on street parking has been facilitated by local authorities and having a car was required due to our poor public transport. The fact is though... these home owners will have a problem if on street parking is removed.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

My journey to work is roughly 25 km (it's roughly the same distance if I followed the motorway route or "cycleable" route).

For me to get to work by public transport, I'd have to get 2 buses, changing in the city centre. I'd have to first get a very unreliable and infrequent bus to the CC then another very frequent one back out to work. It would cost me €27 in capped leap bus fare and loads of waiting around.

If I drive, it costs me slightly less in petrol, no tolls. Insurance and tax and NCT are paid anyway so I won't factor those into costs.

If public transport was cheaper a d more reliable I'd get it in a heartbeat. Cycling is lethal where I live in some spots, I wouldn't dare cycle on a winter's morning.

Zebra3

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

I think she might be referring to on street parking belonging to houses.
Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

Why should anyone on here care where they store their private property, so long as it's not on a public space?

Cookiemunster

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why should anyone on here care where they store their private property, so long as it's not on a public space?

Well if they've legally been storing that private property on said public space for the last 20 or 30 years, then the precedent has been a long time set and it won't be easy to remove that right.
Generally the LA has to provide or pay for alternative parking options for the residents.

Zebra3

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Well if they've legally been storing that private property on said public space for the last 20 or 30 years, then the precedent has been a long time set and it won't be easy to remove that right.
Generally the LA has to provide or pay for alternative parking options for the residents.

Of course it's easy to remove the right.

Pass legislation.

Let the permit lapse.

Whatever.

Society has to move forward.

Duckjob

Zebra3 wrote: »

Of course it's easy to remove the right.

Pass legislation.

Let the permit lapse.

Whatever.

Society has to move forward.

Unfortunately in Ireland there's very little sense of doing anything for "the greater good" of society.

The government that allows that to happen to "the hard pressed motorist" will be punished severely come next election time. That's one of the main reasons so little changes here.

Cookiemunster

Zebra3 wrote: »

Of course it's easy to remove the right.

Pass legislation.

Let the permit lapse.

Whatever.

Society has to move forward.

You do know how this country works right? If only it were that simple. Government TDs objected to parts of the bus connects plan. Eamonn Ryan was one of the objectors that got the Southern part of the metrolink plan canned. We have a system that enables NIMBYs and TDs are some of the worst NIMBYs in the country.

Zebra3

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You do know how this country works right? If only it were that simple. Government TDs objected to parts of the bus connects plan. Eamonn Ryan was one of the objectors that got the Southern part of the metrolink plan canned. We have a system that enables NIMBYs and TDs are some of the worst NIMBYs in the country.

I'm fully aware. :D

I did say that it's easy to do, I didn't claim that it will happen easily.

But if the "system" is afraid to tackle the privitisation of public property, how the hell will it tackle taking private property?

magicbastarder

Zebra3 wrote: »

Of course it's easy to remove the right.

Pass legislation.

that's a rabbit hole which is possibly a little dangerous to go down. ireland's rights of way laws are tenuous as it is without the potential for crossover from this to erode them further.

Truthvader

Yet another loony bicycle thread populated by the same posters with the same vindictive emphasis on punishing car owners above all else


BULDA****INGUNDERGROUND!


All the jealous spite and bicycle fetish fantasies so indulged here will not actually solve the transport problem. Just make everything that bit more **** for people not interested in cycling

Truthvader

Truthvader wrote: »

Yet another loony bicycle thread populated by the same posters with the same vindictive emphasis on punishing car owners above all else


BULDA****INGUNDERGROUND!


All the jealous spite and bicycle fetish fantasies so indulged here will not actually solve the transport problem. Just make everything that bit more **** for people not interested in cycling

Thought provoking

07Lapierre

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Well if they've legally been storing that private property on said public space for the last 20 or 30 years, then the precedent has been a long time set and it won't be easy to remove that right.
Generally the LA has to provide or pay for alternative parking options for the residents.

How many residence on Westmorland st. Park their cars on the street? What about Merrion Square? Pearse St., Amien St.? Can’t find it now, but their was a graphic which indicated the level of car ownership around the city and the city centre had very low levels. In short, on street parking could be removed from a lot of streets without inconveniencing local residents.

EDIT: Found it..

maestroamado

In my opinion the only thing that will solve Dublin congestion is a proper Underground rail system.
Take lots of buses and cars off the street.
It will never happen unless EU pay for it, it should have being done 50 years ago.
I only heard recently that the two railways stations and docks in Dublin have underground link...