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What can be done to introduce Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture here?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,736 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Car drivers are entirely privileged in Ireland. It’s such hard work to fight against their various lobby groups to create a world fit for people.

    It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,736 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    F*ck them. Let them die in a traffic jam, the old c*nts. Sick of these people and they seem to make up most of the population according to any discussion that might impede private car use in any way.

    I could suggest the reverse is also true........... and I'd not need to resort to juvenile name calling to make my point either.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,870 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.
    where did the €6.2bn figure come from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,189 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

    Pay for what exactly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,189 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I cycled down that and I wasn't quite sure what the point of it being double-lane was — are they planning to expand the footpath here? Or maybe make a contraflow cycle lane? It's weird because it's not like this is a particularly busy part of the quays. It's certainly nice to have less space for cars though!

    I suspect they are anticipating a lot more cyclists using that route in the future.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,453 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

    What do you pay and for what exactly, that I don’t?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,803 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

    Privilege to destroy the environment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Pay for what exactly?

    giphy.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,453 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Garibaldi? wrote: »
    I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

    Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.

    If we're to aim for a proper dutch style biking culture, then people commuting to work is only one aspect of what we need to consider.

    People need to be able to use their bikes to go to meet a friend for coffee, go the cinema, go for a meal etc and be reasonably confident their bike will still be there and in one piece when they get back. Only way to accomplish this would be well attended 24hr secure bike parking facilities.

    Nice avatar btw ;)


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Garibaldi? wrote: »
    I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

    Its definitely an issue but not an irish one, its one in general.

    Facilities like Drury St are welcome and long overdue.

    However, something as simple as a good lock costing approx 10% of the bikes value, coupled with a second lock, strategic placement of those locks and smart location choices can do a lot to protect your bike.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    DaCor wrote: »
    Its definitely an issue but not an irish one, its one in general.

    Facilities like Drury St are welcome and long overdue.

    However, something as simple as a good lock costing approx 10% of the bikes value, coupled with a second lock, strategic placement of those locks and smart location choices can do a lot to protect your bike.

    There's plenty of useless scumbags that, even if they can't have your bike will stamp the wheels in just to make themselves feel better.

    IMO you need to set the bar higher than just stopping your bike from getting stolen, you need to set it to how can we have our bikes kept properly safe while we're away from them.

    Drury St is a good start point but we need a massive scale up of high quality attended bike parking if we want the dutch model.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,896 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    galwaytt wrote: »
    It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

    Motor tax = 1 bn approx
    VRT 2018 = 885m

    Fuel duty, auto diesel 2018 = 1.5bn
    Petrol duty = 600m???

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/excise/net-receipts-by-commodity.pdf

    I calculate approx 4bn in motoring taxes???


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.
    What about people who might need to park when going shopping or to an appointment somewhere. If you're in the car you just park legally and responsibly and lock it up. Even the most expensive and robust locks have failed to protect bikes. A difficult challenge this!


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.
    What about people who might need to park when going shopping or to an appointment somewhere. If you're in the car you just park legally and responsibly and lock it up. Even the most expensive and robust locks have failed to protect bikes. A difficult challenge this!


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    Duckjob wrote: »
    There's plenty of useless scumbags that, even if they can't have your bike will stamp the wheels in just to make themselves feel better.

    IMO you need to set the bar higher than just stopping your bike from getting stolen, you need to set it to how can we have our bikes kept properly safe while we're away from them.

    Drury St is a good start point but we need a massive scale up of high quality attended bike parking if we want the dutch model.

    Absolutely agree with this. Even if you're bike is not targeted you've no peace of mind going about your business and not knowing if it will be there when you return. There are hundreds of great new bikes out there including electric ones but what use is that when security is such an issue!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,453 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Duckjob wrote: »
    If we're to aim for a proper dutch style biking culture, then people commuting to work is only one aspect of what we need to consider.

    People need to be able to use their bikes to go to meet a friend for coffee, go the cinema, go for a meal etc and be reasonably confident their bike will still be there and in one piece when they get back. Only way to accomplish this would be well attended 24hr secure bike parking facilities.

    Nice avatar btw ;)

    My point is this isn't some unknowable, impossible problem - the solution is to provide secure bike parking everywhere, in huge numbers.

    Hell, I'd be happy to let Brown Thomas or whoever convert part of their car parks into secure bike parking, and charge me a euro for a day.

    This is a problem with a known, easily done solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,453 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Garibaldi? wrote: »
    What about people who might need to park when going shopping or to an appointment somewhere. If you're in the car you just park legally and responsibly and lock it up. Even the most expensive and robust locks have failed to protect bikes. A difficult challenge this!

    It's not difficult at all, the problem is just that we devote 90% of our city infrastructure to cars. I'll not repeat my post above, but the problems are solvable fairly easily.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Garibaldi? wrote: »
    I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

    I noticed in Italy all they have around towns and cities are bog standard high nelly Dutch style bikes, not carbon fibre space age non stick frying pan things that cost €€€€.
    Why? Because even locked up your expensive bike will be stolen, that's why.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,189 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    More confirmation that roads are wide enough already.

    https://twitter.com/j_m_fitton/status/1274697750056181763?s=21


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!


    I think all multi storey car parks should have one level CPOed for bike parking. The state could buy one floor and hand over the equivalent of 10 years' parking revenue for one floor.

    If secure cages are provided you could store hundreds of bikes if stored upright (maybe even a thousand spaces).

    The QPark on Marlboro Street and QPark Stephen's Green come to mind. A nominal fee of a tenner per week would encourage people to cycle in and have piece of mind and cheaper than the bus.

    I think I heard a figure of €600 million to make public transport free for all. I would happily pay increased motor tax and see a city centre toll introduced to fund this.

    Carrot, stick, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭Garibaldi?


    I think all multi storey car parks should have one level CPOed for bike parking. The state could buy one floor and hand over the equivalent of 10 years' parking revenue for one floor.

    If secure cages are provided you could store hundreds of bikes if stored upright (maybe even a thousand spaces).

    The QPark on Marlboro Street and QPark Stephen's Green come to mind. A nominal fee of a tenner per week would encourage people to cycle in and have piece of mind and cheaper than the bus.

    I think I heard a figure of €600 million to make public transport free for all. I would happily pay increased motor tax and see a city centre toll introduced to fund this.

    Carrot, stick, etc.

    This sounds like a great idea. At least you'd be sure of bike security in the city centre whatever about elsewhere. Bike security is a huge issue and a barrier to the green agenda. Unlike a car a bike can be picked up and thrown in the back of a van, never to be seen again.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I think all multi storey car parks should have one level CPOed for bike parking. The state could buy one floor and hand over the equivalent of 10 years' parking revenue for one floor.

    If secure cages are provided you could store hundreds of bikes if stored upright (maybe even a thousand spaces).

    The QPark on Marlboro Street and QPark Stephen's Green come to mind. A nominal fee of a tenner per week would encourage people to cycle in and have piece of mind and cheaper than the bus.

    Bikes are quite small. I think taking a floor of every single carpark would be overkill. And I doubt politically you'd get away with CPOing them either.
    I think I heard a figure of €600 million to make public transport free for all. I would happily pay increased motor tax and see a city centre toll introduced to fund this.

    Carrot, stick, etc.

    The problem with making public transport free is that we already don't have enough public transport now while were charging for use. Where would the extra passengers fit on already packed trains, trams and buses? No carrot or stick is going to put people on something that doesn't yet exist.

    There needs to be a huge capacity increase and more options (metrolink, new tram lines in the cities, bus connects, etc) before before you'll entice more people on to PT whether it's free or not.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Garibaldi? wrote: »
    This sounds like a great idea. At least you'd be sure of bike security in the city centre whatever about elsewhere. Bike security is a huge issue and a barrier to the green agenda. Unlike a car a bike can be picked up and thrown in the back of a van, never to be seen again.

    Main reason I stopped commuting by bike was that the first one was stolen, and the second had the wheels cut off. My bike4work finally came back up so am ordering a replacement. The level of theft/vandalism is ridiculous. I was told by the Garda that bikes are shipped out of the country, how are containers full of random bicycles making it through our ports?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!


    liamog wrote: »
    Main reason I stopped commuting by bike was that the first one was stolen, and the second had the wheels cut off. My bike4work finally came back up so am ordering a replacement. The level of theft/vandalism is ridiculous. I was told by the Garda that bikes are shipped out of the country, how are containers full of random bicycles making it through our ports?

    Little or no identity checks performed on intra EU travel and no custom checks whatsoever.
    Ships to Britain are considered domestic routes so even more lax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,442 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I don't know but I wouldn't bother parking my bike in one of those fancy car parks for convenience reasons, if I was going shopping in town or something as I usually find suitable places as is right on the street, although I have left it in the Drury st one once or twice. I think it's fairly safe to leave bikes with a good lock in busier parts of Dublin as long as you don't leave it too long, and this is coming from someone who's had 4 or 5 bikes stolen in the last 5 or 6 years but it was mostly down to my own carelessness. Also if your bike is a ridiculously expensive one you shouldn't really be leaving it anywhere at all except inside your house.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    liamog wrote: »
    Main reason I stopped commuting by bike was that the first one was stolen, and the second had the wheels cut off. My bike4work finally came back up so am ordering a replacement. The level of theft/vandalism is ridiculous. I was told by the Garda that bikes are shipped out of the country, how are containers full of random bicycles making it through our ports?

    I understand that the Gardai have Cycle Theft programme whereby you can voluntarily register your Cycle details on the PULSE system,which allows for a far greater chance of your Cycle being recovered and returned to you.

    Cycle theft and pure mindless vandalism remains perhaps THE most unsavoury element of Bicycle use in Dublin.

    Does anybody have any comparison statistics with,for example......Holland.....?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,564 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I cycle a lot in Switzerland (both in a city and rural leisure cycling) and many urban area cycle lanes are really little more than a line painted on the road/footpath. Of course there are also largely segregated roadside infrastructure and totally off road routes and all that but on many streets it can be fairly basic with the cycle lane running right through where buses pull in and alongside parked cars. I find that to be perfectly acceptable once the space for bikes is respected and adequate provision is made for cyclists at junctions. Along with designated space for cyclists, dedicated cyclist lights is probably the most important aspect. Allowing cyclists to move off before traffic and navigating cyclists through junctions while not being at the mercy of drivers makes a huge difference. Obviously BusConnects and the multiple greenway type projects go beyond this but the point is simply ensuring enough space for the cyclist and focusing on junctions makes a big difference.

    In BusConnects consultations, I did suggest that full dedicated cyclist traffic signalling should be provided as part of the project. It can be incorporated quite easily as part of the initial installation. Such lights could also be used to allow cyclists do things which other traffic can't. For example, at pedestrian crossings, where there are no conflicting traffic movements, cyclists could get a flashing yellow light meaning give way to pedestrians, otherwise you can carry on through. Also left turn on red lights (again where no conflicting traffic movements). Some might say those things happen anyway, and they do, but it would be better to formalise it in a way rather than turning a blind eye.

    On cycle parking, I don't think large scale cycle parking in multi-storey car parks, while useful, is going to be very attractive. Smaller clusters with space for up to 50 bikes dotted around is a better option. They would be more convenient and having them in full public view will deter thiefs. People want to be able to leave their bike near the shop/pub/wherever they are going to. There are plenty of places where on street parking spaces can be removed to provide bike parking without the need to buy anything. I know people here give out about multi-storey car parks but I'd rather have the cars parked in them than littering the streets.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Garibaldi? wrote: »
    I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

    That is not the main problem. In fact, bike theft is rampant in the Netherlands. Probably the worst in Europe. As a result people mainly cycle cheap, beaten up bikes.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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