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What can be done to introduce Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture here?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,841 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    "Come up with our own solutions" and not use decades of experience and solutions that have been tested elsewhere? We've seen plenty of times what happens when city planners "come up with their own solutions" for cycle infrastructure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!


    ax530 wrote: »
    Amsterdam has built car parks under some canals. seems a much bigger proportionof the population live in city within cycling distance of work/school/creche.

    A good start in Ireland would be encouraging kids to cycle to school, start the habit young and they may keep it up and demand good infrastructure as get older.
    I think if N routes were made safer for cycling especially between towns and villages it would allow lot more people in Ireland to cycle. As many have tight fast N routes between home & school which makes cycling to school difficult and dangerous.


    We have to tackle the mindset of the adults first.

    If I'm ever passing the local national school in the morning or afternoon, the designated space for the school bus is always filled with mothers in their army tank SUVs, forcing the bus driver to open the doors on the road.

    Add to that, a huge chunk of kids being driven to school or getting the bus live less than 1 km away. There's a lad who lives beside me who gets the school bus (700 metres from school) and the poor lad is like the Michelin Man.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,299 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Stark wrote: »
    We've seen plenty of times what happens when city planners "come up with their own solutions" for cycle infrastructure.

    But they haven't.


    They have gone with the cheapest solutions.


    That's different.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!


    But they haven't.
    They have gone with the cheapest solutions.
    That's different.

    What exactly is wrong with wanting to emulate the Dutch or Danish model?

    If it works and is proven to be effective from decades of research, then what's the issue?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

    Because this is what happens when Irish planners try to do it instead of looking at what has worked elsewhere

    516601.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

    Park on another street their permit covers?
    Store their car in a private car park?
    Sell car and use GoCar?
    Move to a property with offstreet parking space?
    Abandon car on footpath?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

    In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

    We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

    Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

    Our culture is "never plan anything", "tis my land" and "shur twill be grand".


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,189 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Grassey wrote: »
    Park on another street their permit covers?
    Store their car in a private car park?
    Sell car and use GoCar?
    Move to a property with offstreet parking space?
    Abandon car on footpath?

    I've a certain amount of sympathy for anyone who bought a house that only has on-street parking. The reality is that over the years, on street parking has been facilitated by local authorities and having a car was required due to our poor public transport. The fact is though... these home owners will have a problem if on street parking is removed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!


    My journey to work is roughly 25 km (it's roughly the same distance if I followed the motorway route or "cycleable" route).

    For me to get to work by public transport, I'd have to get 2 buses, changing in the city centre. I'd have to first get a very unreliable and infrequent bus to the CC then another very frequent one back out to work. It would cost me €27 in capped leap bus fare and loads of waiting around.

    If I drive, it costs me slightly less in petrol, no tolls. Insurance and tax and NCT are paid anyway so I won't factor those into costs.

    If public transport was cheaper a d more reliable I'd get it in a heartbeat. Cycling is lethal where I live in some spots, I wouldn't dare cycle on a winter's morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,803 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I think she might be referring to on street parking belonging to houses.
    Where will homeowners who've lost their parking space park now?

    Why should anyone on here care where they store their private property, so long as it's not on a public space?


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Why should anyone on here care where they store their private property, so long as it's not on a public space?

    Well if they've legally been storing that private property on said public space for the last 20 or 30 years, then the precedent has been a long time set and it won't be easy to remove that right.
    Generally the LA has to provide or pay for alternative parking options for the residents.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,803 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Well if they've legally been storing that private property on said public space for the last 20 or 30 years, then the precedent has been a long time set and it won't be easy to remove that right.
    Generally the LA has to provide or pay for alternative parking options for the residents.

    Of course it's easy to remove the right.

    Pass legislation.

    Let the permit lapse.

    Whatever.

    Society has to move forward.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Of course it's easy to remove the right.

    Pass legislation.

    Let the permit lapse.

    Whatever.

    Society has to move forward.


    Unfortunately in Ireland there's very little sense of doing anything for "the greater good" of society.

    The government that allows that to happen to "the hard pressed motorist" will be punished severely come next election time. That's one of the main reasons so little changes here.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Of course it's easy to remove the right.

    Pass legislation.

    Let the permit lapse.

    Whatever.

    Society has to move forward.

    You do know how this country works right? If only it were that simple. Government TDs objected to parts of the bus connects plan. Eamonn Ryan was one of the objectors that got the Southern part of the metrolink plan canned. We have a system that enables NIMBYs and TDs are some of the worst NIMBYs in the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,803 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    You do know how this country works right? If only it were that simple. Government TDs objected to parts of the bus connects plan. Eamonn Ryan was one of the objectors that got the Southern part of the metrolink plan canned. We have a system that enables NIMBYs and TDs are some of the worst NIMBYs in the country.

    I'm fully aware. :D:D

    I did say that it's easy to do, I didn't claim that it will happen easily.

    But if the "system" is afraid to tackle the privitisation of public property, how the hell will it tackle taking private property? :(


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,873 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Of course it's easy to remove the right.

    Pass legislation.
    that's a rabbit hole which is possibly a little dangerous to go down. ireland's rights of way laws are tenuous as it is without the potential for crossover from this to erode them further.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Yet another loony bicycle thread populated by the same posters with the same vindictive emphasis on punishing car owners above all else


    BULDA****INGUNDERGROUND!


    All the jealous spite and bicycle fetish fantasies so indulged here will not actually solve the transport problem. Just make everything that bit more **** for people not interested in cycling


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Truthvader wrote: »
    Yet another loony bicycle thread populated by the same posters with the same vindictive emphasis on punishing car owners above all else


    BULDA****INGUNDERGROUND!


    All the jealous spite and bicycle fetish fantasies so indulged here will not actually solve the transport problem. Just make everything that bit more **** for people not interested in cycling

    Thought provoking


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,189 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Well if they've legally been storing that private property on said public space for the last 20 or 30 years, then the precedent has been a long time set and it won't be easy to remove that right.
    Generally the LA has to provide or pay for alternative parking options for the residents.

    How many residence on Westmorland st. Park their cars on the street? What about Merrion Square? Pearse St., Amien St.? Can’t find it now, but their was a graphic which indicated the level of car ownership around the city and the city centre had very low levels. In short, on street parking could be removed from a lot of streets without inconveniencing local residents.

    EDIT: Found it.. EX0LCTOXsAYNJVh.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    In my opinion the only thing that will solve Dublin congestion is a proper Underground rail system.
    Take lots of buses and cars off the street.
    It will never happen unless EU pay for it, it should have being done 50 years ago.
    I only heard recently that the two railways stations and docks in Dublin have underground link...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,189 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    In my opinion the only thing that will solve Dublin congestion is an Underground rail system.
    Take lots of buses and cars off the street.
    It will never happen unless EU pay for it, it should have being done 50 years ago.
    I only heard recently that the two railways stations in Dublin have underground link...

    Why do you want to take buses off the street? Besides, take cars off the streets will only allow more people to drive into the city? No. The answer is to remove the “convenience” of being able to drive into the city and at the same time to provide alternatives. More buses, more cycle lanes etc. An underground world take decades for planning/ construction etc,


  • Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭jcon1913


    How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

    In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

    We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

    Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?
    Fair enough but that’s like saying “we started our own university and paid no attention to what anyone else has done “ good soundbite but it doesn’t make sense.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Preamble: I live in Eindhoven and cycle to work every day. I cycled recreationally in Ireland from my youth until I left in 2018.

    It starts with very simple things. Without any change in infrastructure cycling can be improved in Dublin by changing light sequences and right of way to always favour cycling lanes. Adding a “red/green” light for bikes that changes 15s before the light for cars makes a massive difference.

    Bikes lanes always have the right of of way at roundabouts and crossing t junctions.

    Those 2 things make a huge difference.

    When it comes to new infrastructure: bike lanes don’t have to always follow roads! There are large parts of Eindhoven where I can get there quicker on a bike than in the car because of one way systems for cars. But one way systems don’t apply to bikes. Sometimes the cycling lanes aren’t even parallel to roads, they run through parks, between buildings and beside footpaths.

    What I’m really saying is that it isn’t complicated. You just need to prioritise road traffic the right way:

    1. Public transport
    2. Bikes
    3. Pedestrians
    4. Cars

    In Ireland, cars are always prio 1 and everything is jammed in around it.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Why do you want to take buses off the street? Besides, take cars off the streets will only allow more people to drive into the city? No. The answer is to remove the “convenience” of being able to drive into the city and at the same time to provide alternatives. More buses, more cycle lanes etc. An underground world take decades for planning/ construction etc,


    I do not want to take buses of the street but there be no need if there more rail, another option be sky train but be very difficult to do in Dublin i think?
    I agree on not having traffic in the city, for me bicycles, cars, buses, trucks and HGV, trams and tractors cannot share the same space.
    It will take a ling time to do but something long term needs to be done, if it takes a long time make sure its big enough. The infastructure that was built 20 years was not done big enough...


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    How many residence on Westmorland st. Park their cars on the street? What about Merrion Square? Pearse St., Amien St.? Can’t find it now, but their was a graphic which indicated the level of car ownership around the city and the city centre had very low levels. In short, on street parking could be removed from a lot of streets without inconveniencing local residents.

    EDIT: Found it..


    I'm not really sure how that's relevant to my point that the LA will more than likely have to pay to replace the parking as the precedent of on street parking is long since set. 20-30% of people in Dublin city center is still a lot of cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,517 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Grassey wrote: »
    Park on another street their permit covers?
    1 Store their car in a private car park?
    2 Sell car and use GoCar?
    3 Move to a property with offstreet parking space?
    4 Abandon car on footpath?

    They will likely do 4 if you design a system which provides them with no choices. That is just a manifestly dumb thing to do.

    FWIW I don't own a car, and I use GoCar a lot. Sometimes I need to park a GoCar within reasonable distance of my house for loading or uploading stuff. Sometimes eg post surgery, friends and / or taxis have had to park while loading or uploading ME.

    Re 3, having inner city residents keeps the place safer for everyone, and cuts commuting overall. The last thing we want to do is force more people to the suburbs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Brian? wrote: »
    Preamble: I live in Eindhoven and cycle to work every day. I cycled recreationally in Ireland from my youth until I left in 2018.

    It starts with very simple things. Without any change in infrastructure cycling can be improved in Dublin by changing light sequences and right of way to always favour cycling lanes. Adding a “red/green” light for bikes that changes 15s before the light for cars makes a massive difference.

    Bikes lanes always have the right of of way at roundabouts and crossing t junctions.

    Those 2 things make a huge difference.

    When it comes to new infrastructure: bike lanes don’t have to always follow roads! There are large parts of Eindhoven where I can get there quicker on a bike than in the car because of one way systems for cars. But one way systems don’t apply to bikes. Sometimes the cycling lanes aren’t even parallel to roads, they run through parks, between buildings and beside footpaths.

    What I’m really saying is that it isn’t complicated. You just need to prioritise road traffic the right way:

    1. Public transport
    2. Bikes
    3. Pedestrians
    4. Cars

    In Ireland, cars are always prio 1 and everything is jammed in around it.

    Yes, I agree 100% I have cycled in lots of places around the Netherlands I spent a good bit of time there. When you are on a bike you are treated as a normal human being, if I am on a bike here in Ireland here, I feel like I am sitting on the work of the devil.

    On RTE news lately when we were at phase 1 of the pandemic and at a 5km restriction there was a clip being showed how much of an increase there was for cycling, this lady was being interview for a quick few seconds and said something along the lines of “yeah we got a few bikes but before it was something frowned upon in our household previously” what did she mean by that? :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,280 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Our urban areas are flat. Dublin isn't festooned with mountains in the city. The only possible hilly city is Cork and even then most of it is fairly flat aside from parts of the Northside.

    Most of our cities and urban areas are built on rivers, rivers tend to be at the bottom of hills. I've lived in or near a few of our cities and none of them could be considered flat.

    Our terrain is great for people who cycle for exercise but not so much so for people who want a leisurely form of transport, that is unless they either want to alternate between bringing their bike for a walk and freewheeling down the other side of the many hills or arriving at their destination with a sheen of perspiration.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,280 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    DaCor wrote: »
    Because this is what happens when Irish planners try to do it instead of looking at what has worked elsewhere

    516601.jpg

    Where is that abomination ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,841 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Where is that abomination ?

    Looks like Galway.


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