What can be done to introduce Dutch-style cycling infrastructure and culture here?

07Lapierre

maestroamado wrote: »

In my opinion the only thing that will solve Dublin congestion is an Underground rail system.
Take lots of buses and cars off the street.
It will never happen unless EU pay for it, it should have being done 50 years ago.
I only heard recently that the two railways stations in Dublin have underground link...

Why do you want to take buses off the street? Besides, take cars off the streets will only allow more people to drive into the city? No. The answer is to remove the “convenience” of being able to drive into the city and at the same time to provide alternatives. More buses, more cycle lanes etc. An underground world take decades for planning/ construction etc,

jcon1913

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about we develop our own culture in all these things instead of trying to import culture from elsewhere?

In answer to the OP, we are not Dutch.

We need our own ideas to move forward. Lead instead of copy.

Do the Dutch go through life thinking "we have to be like x,y and z" like we seem to constantly do here?

Fair enough but that’s like saying “we started our own university and paid no attention to what anyone else has done “ good soundbite but it doesn’t make sense.

Brian?

Preamble: I live in Eindhoven and cycle to work every day. I cycled recreationally in Ireland from my youth until I left in 2018.

It starts with very simple things. Without any change in infrastructure cycling can be improved in Dublin by changing light sequences and right of way to always favour cycling lanes. Adding a “red/green” light for bikes that changes 15s before the light for cars makes a massive difference.

Bikes lanes always have the right of of way at roundabouts and crossing t junctions.

Those 2 things make a huge difference.

When it comes to new infrastructure: bike lanes don’t have to always follow roads! There are large parts of Eindhoven where I can get there quicker on a bike than in the car because of one way systems for cars. But one way systems don’t apply to bikes. Sometimes the cycling lanes aren’t even parallel to roads, they run through parks, between buildings and beside footpaths.

What I’m really saying is that it isn’t complicated. You just need to prioritise road traffic the right way:

1. Public transport
2. Bikes
3. Pedestrians
4. Cars

In Ireland, cars are always prio 1 and everything is jammed in around it.

maestroamado

07Lapierre wrote: »

Why do you want to take buses off the street? Besides, take cars off the streets will only allow more people to drive into the city? No. The answer is to remove the “convenience” of being able to drive into the city and at the same time to provide alternatives. More buses, more cycle lanes etc. An underground world take decades for planning/ construction etc,

I do not want to take buses of the street but there be no need if there more rail, another option be sky train but be very difficult to do in Dublin i think?
I agree on not having traffic in the city, for me bicycles, cars, buses, trucks and HGV, trams and tractors cannot share the same space.
It will take a ling time to do but something long term needs to be done, if it takes a long time make sure its big enough. The infastructure that was built 20 years was not done big enough...

Cookiemunster

07Lapierre wrote: »

How many residence on Westmorland st. Park their cars on the street? What about Merrion Square? Pearse St., Amien St.? Can’t find it now, but their was a graphic which indicated the level of car ownership around the city and the city centre had very low levels. In short, on street parking could be removed from a lot of streets without inconveniencing local residents.

EDIT: Found it..

I'm not really sure how that's relevant to my point that the LA will more than likely have to pay to replace the parking as the precedent of on street parking is long since set. 20-30% of people in Dublin city center is still a lot of cars.

Mrs OBumble

Grassey wrote: »

Park on another street their permit covers?
1 Store their car in a private car park?
2 Sell car and use GoCar?
3 Move to a property with offstreet parking space?
4 Abandon car on footpath?

They will likely do 4 if you design a system which provides them with no choices. That is just a manifestly dumb thing to do.

FWIW I don't own a car, and I use GoCar a lot. Sometimes I need to park a GoCar within reasonable distance of my house for loading or uploading stuff. Sometimes eg post surgery, friends and / or taxis have had to park while loading or uploading ME.

Re 3, having inner city residents keeps the place safer for everyone, and cuts commuting overall. The last thing we want to do is force more people to the suburbs.

stevek93

Brian? wrote: »

Preamble: I live in Eindhoven and cycle to work every day. I cycled recreationally in Ireland from my youth until I left in 2018.

It starts with very simple things. Without any change in infrastructure cycling can be improved in Dublin by changing light sequences and right of way to always favour cycling lanes. Adding a “red/green” light for bikes that changes 15s before the light for cars makes a massive difference.

Bikes lanes always have the right of of way at roundabouts and crossing t junctions.

Those 2 things make a huge difference.

When it comes to new infrastructure: bike lanes don’t have to always follow roads! There are large parts of Eindhoven where I can get there quicker on a bike than in the car because of one way systems for cars. But one way systems don’t apply to bikes. Sometimes the cycling lanes aren’t even parallel to roads, they run through parks, between buildings and beside footpaths.

What I’m really saying is that it isn’t complicated. You just need to prioritise road traffic the right way:

1. Public transport
2. Bikes
3. Pedestrians
4. Cars

In Ireland, cars are always prio 1 and everything is jammed in around it.

Yes, I agree 100% I have cycled in lots of places around the Netherlands I spent a good bit of time there. When you are on a bike you are treated as a normal human being, if I am on a bike here in Ireland here, I feel like I am sitting on the work of the devil.

On RTE news lately when we were at phase 1 of the pandemic and at a 5km restriction there was a clip being showed how much of an increase there was for cycling, this lady was being interview for a quick few seconds and said something along the lines of “yeah we got a few bikes but before it was something frowned upon in our household previously” what did she mean by that?

FishOnABike

namloc1980 wrote: »

Our urban areas are flat. Dublin isn't festooned with mountains in the city. The only possible hilly city is Cork and even then most of it is fairly flat aside from parts of the Northside.

Most of our cities and urban areas are built on rivers, rivers tend to be at the bottom of hills. I've lived in or near a few of our cities and none of them could be considered flat.

Our terrain is great for people who cycle for exercise but not so much so for people who want a leisurely form of transport, that is unless they either want to alternate between bringing their bike for a walk and freewheeling down the other side of the many hills or arriving at their destination with a sheen of perspiration.

FishOnABike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because this is what happens when Irish planners try to do it instead of looking at what has worked elsewhere

Where is that abomination ?

Stark

FishOnABike wrote: »

Where is that abomination ?

Looks like Galway.

MJohnston

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If there is one country in the world we should not emulate in pretty much anything it's the UK.

We shouldn't be aiming to emulate anyone is my point.

We should come up with our own solutions. Naturally some will be similar to best practice elsewhere but we need to have more confidence in our ability to innovate here is all i'm saying.

There's a concept in software engineering called Not Invented Here Syndrome, where an engineering team avoids using software they haven't built themselves, because there nearly always exists a bias against external ideas.

It's largely seen as wasteful, counterproductive, and more expensive in the long-term.

There's another concept in software engineering, that of open source. That's when you release your source code, for free, to the public. Doing this, you usually get free improvements, free bug fixes. In return, the public get access to a mature, well-built piece of code that has much more support than they themselves could provide. The phrase "standing on the shoulders of giants" is often used to describe how open source software can benefit everyone.

The reason we look to the Dutch for cycling infrastructure solutions is because they been doing them a lot longer. They have thought through these problems, they have refined the solutions, and they have gotten it down to a science.

We will get much more effective infrastructure, with much fewer 'bugs', and with a more smaller requirement for research and analysis, if we stand on the shoulders of the Dutch.

To do otherwise would be wasteful, counterproductive, and more expensive in the long-term.

MJohnston

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I'm not really sure how that's relevant to my point that the LA will more than likely have to pay to replace the parking as the precedent of on street parking is long since set. 20-30% of people in Dublin city center is still a lot of cars.

How many of those on-street parking spaces are located on arterial streets? Very, very few I would wager.

I think this is a giant red herring, and not a particularly compelling reason to avoid building cycling infrastructure.

Truthvader

07Lapierre wrote: »

Why do you want to take buses off the street? Besides, take cars off the streets will only allow more people to drive into the city? No. The answer is to remove the “convenience” of being able to drive into the city and at the same time to provide alternatives. More buses, more cycle lanes etc. An underground world take decades for planning/ construction etc,

once again the same old emphasis on "getting" car owners at all costs rather than providing a transport solution

MJohnston

Truthvader wrote: »

once again the same old emphasis on "getting" car owners at all costs rather than providing a transport solution

Can we agree that these two statements are factual?
1. You cannot quickly and drastically improve commuting in Dublin without reallocating the fixed amount of road space to public transport, walking, and cycling.
2. You cannot encourage car commuters to shift modes until those other modes quickly and drastically improve.

Cookiemunster

MJohnston wrote: »

How many of those on-street parking spaces are located on arterial streets? Very, very few I would wager.

I think this is a giant red herring, and not a particularly compelling reason to avoid building cycling infrastructure.

I never claimed it was a reason not to build anything. It will however be a hindrance due to our planning system. You should try not seeing arguments that aren't there.

MJohnston

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I never claimed it was a reason not to build anything. It will however be a hindrance due to our planning system. You should try not seeing arguments that aren't there.

Why would the planning system have to be used?

Cookiemunster

MJohnston wrote: »

Why would the planning system have to be used?

Well if any LA wants to do more than paint lines on the road (and with the money due to be available you'd expect a lot more), then at minimum you need to go through the Part 8 planning process.

FishOnABike

FishOnABike wrote: »

Where is that abomination ?

Doughiska in Galway City.

It was rolled out as "the template of future cycling infrastructure in the city".

Since then, thanks to the derision and mockery its attracted from all over the world, that idea has been put to rest, thankfully

FishOnABike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Doughiska in Galway City.

It was rolled out as "the template of future cycling infrastructure in the city".

Since then, thanks to the derision and mockery its attracted from all over the world, that idea has been put to rest, thankfully

Thought it might be Galway with the style of stone wall. FFS stop every 5 metres, on an up hill incline, to yield to traffic turning on to or off of the main road. If I was on a bike there I'd be avoiding those 'cycle lanes' like the plague. It looks like someone had more paint than sense!

Zebra3

Truthvader wrote: »

once again the same old emphasis on "getting" car owners at all costs rather than providing a transport solution

Ah, yes.

When privilege is challenged, it feels like discrimination.....

MJohnston

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Well if any LA wants to do more than paint lines on the road (and with the money due to be available you'd expect a lot more), then at minimum you need to go through the Part 8 planning process.

There are numerous projects ongoing at the minute that I think prove that LAs can do a whole lot without needing any planning.

Create interim schemes with paint and temporary bollards, barriers, and planters. Then leave it for a year or two, and once people have realised the benefits, then maybe you can start going through a planning process.

This is exactly what happened with Suffolk Street, for example, and it's happening right now with the Liffey Cycle Route.

Wishbone Ash

stevek93 wrote: »

....On RTE news lately when we were at phase 1 of the pandemic and at a 5km restriction there was a clip being showed how much of an increase there was for cycling, this lady was being interview for a quick few seconds and said something along the lines of “yeah we got a few bikes but before it was something frowned upon in our household previously” what did she mean by that?

As far as I can recall she said something like "before Covid, I'd be the last person to be seen on a bike" or words to that effect. I don't recall the word 'frowned' being used.

07Lapierre

Truthvader wrote: »

once again the same old emphasis on "getting" car owners at all costs rather than providing a transport solution

For the record I’m a car owner myself. Any “Getting” will affect me also.

Thelonious Monk

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So where do the cars get moved to? The ones used to take elderly parents to hospital appointments etc .... they won't just magically disappear.

F*ck them. Let them die in a traffic jam, the old c*nts. Sick of these people and they seem to make up most of the population according to any discussion that might impede private car use in any way.

whisky_galore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

F*ck them. Let them die in a traffic jam, the old c*nts. Sick of these people and they seem to make up most of the population according to any discussion that might impede private car use in any way.

You'll be an old cnut too someday.

Truthvader

whisky_galore wrote: »

You'll be an old cnut too someday.

A young cnut already

Thelonious Monk

whisky_galore wrote: »

You'll be an old cnut too someday.

Yes and if dying in a car in a traffic jam for some decent cycling infrastructure is what I need to do I'll do it!
Seriously though any discussion on anything to do with bus lanes or removing parking or widening footpaths even always has a few idiots banging on about made up people being brought to hospital and a sudden heart wrenching interest in disabled people and the elderly.

Thelonious Monk

Truthvader wrote: »

A young cnut already

I wish I was young, I'm an entering middle aged c*nt.

whisky_galore

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm an entering middle aged c*nt.

You said it.

Stark

He has a point though. Everyone suddenly becomes concerned about the disabled and the elderly when in reality they're more worried about something being taken away from themselves. How many of those crusaders for the disabled's right to drive give a **** that lifts at Dart stations have been broken for months for example? Or that we have blue badge stickers for making exemptions for the mobility impaired. Or there are alternatives to cars for the mobility impaired to get around.

07Lapierre

Ok it’s not Ireland, but these photos shows us what a lot of Dublin streets could be...

https://twitter.com/francis_rojo_/status/1273889328616419328?s=21

https://twitter.com/edwinlucas_/status/1273201970833174528?s=21

AlekSmart

07Lapierre wrote: »

Ok it’s not Ireland, but these photos shows us what a lot of Dublin streets could be...

https://twitter.com/francis_rojo_/status/1273889328616419328?s=21

https://twitter.com/edwinlucas_/status/1273201970833174528?s=21

I wonder how many people live above the shops in that Roman vista ?

suicide_circus

Zebra3 wrote: »

Ah, yes.

When privilege is challenged, it feels like discrimination.....

for the love of god don't bring that lame ass terminology into this debate

MJohnston

suicide_circus wrote: »

for the love of god don't bring that lame ass terminology into this debate

Car drivers are entirely privileged in Ireland. It’s such hard work to fight against their various lobby groups to create a world fit for people.

Zebra3

suicide_circus wrote: »

for the love of god don't bring that lame ass terminology into this debate

Except it's not lame ass, it's totally apt.

Cookiemunster

MJohnston wrote: »

Car drivers are entirely privileged in Ireland. It’s such hard work to fight against their various lobby groups to create a world fit for people.

Yes, because there are no cycling lobby groups at all.............

magicbastarder

i think there might be one person employed nationwide by any or all of the cycling lobby groups. the value of the free advertising the AA gets from RTE probably would dwarf the budgets of any or all of them.

MJohnston

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Yes, because there are no cycling lobby groups at all.............

Kindly point out where I said there weren’t?

07Lapierre

Like I said...our streets are wide enough..we just need to reallocate space to cycling.

https://twitter.com/mavicdronepilot/status/1274350354294018050?s=21

MJohnston

I cycled down that and I wasn't quite sure what the point of it being double-lane was — are they planning to expand the footpath here? Or maybe make a contraflow cycle lane? It's weird because it's not like this is a particularly busy part of the quays. It's certainly nice to have less space for cars though!

galwaytt

MJohnston wrote: »

Car drivers are entirely privileged in Ireland. It’s such hard work to fight against their various lobby groups to create a world fit for people.

It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

galwaytt

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

F*ck them. Let them die in a traffic jam, the old c*nts. Sick of these people and they seem to make up most of the population according to any discussion that might impede private car use in any way.

I could suggest the reverse is also true........... and I'd not need to resort to juvenile name calling to make my point either.

magicbastarder

galwaytt wrote: »

It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

where did the €6.2bn figure come from?

07Lapierre

galwaytt wrote: »

It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

Pay for what exactly?

07Lapierre

MJohnston wrote: »

I cycled down that and I wasn't quite sure what the point of it being double-lane was — are they planning to expand the footpath here? Or maybe make a contraflow cycle lane? It's weird because it's not like this is a particularly busy part of the quays. It's certainly nice to have less space for cars though!

I suspect they are anticipating a lot more cyclists using that route in the future.

MJohnston

galwaytt wrote: »

It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

What do you pay and for what exactly, that I don’t?

Zebra3

galwaytt wrote: »

It's not privelege. We pay for it. To the tune of €6.2Bn a year btw.

Privilege to destroy the environment.

Duckjob

07Lapierre wrote: »

Pay for what exactly?

Garibaldi?

I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

MJohnston

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I don't know why nobody has mentioned the main problem about cycling in Ireland.Bicycle theft is rampant. Until somebody comes up with a solution cycling will not be a realistic prospect for most people.

Come up with a solution? There’s no need to come up with one when most people working in Dublin already have access to the solution - secure bike parking at their places of work.