How will schools be able to go back in September?

lulublue22 · 14-06-2020 07:55PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I understand that and its really not easy but then maybe say nothing at all instead of causing more anxiety
Parents are also stressed and snxious

Principals are in a difficult position - if they don’t say anything then they are not communicating parents are in the dark. If they say we don’t know then they are not proactive and not putting the children’s education to the fore. If they give examples of how school might look like in Sep and the dep issue contradictary guidelines then the principal promised this and now is saying they wont do it. I really feel for principals at the moment.

Boggles · 14-06-2020 08:07PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Good job the frontline workers and health services didn’t throw in the towel and say they have no idea how they could cope

32% of all COVID-19 cases in Ireland are among healthcare workers

They did and now they want answers.

Rapid, independent inquiry into healthcare worker infection needed

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I genuinely admire all those who movd outside their comfort zones and carried on
Be it frontline or restaurants or chemists etc

Make kids wait in line outside and let 2 in at a time?

Hardly workable is it?

iamwhoiam · 14-06-2020 08:23PM

Boggles wrote: »

They did and now they want answers.

Rapid, independent inquiry into healthcare worker infection needed

Make kids wait in line outside and let 2 in at a time?

Hardly workable is it?

I was thinking more how restaurants adapted and did takeaway
I am not your enemy by the way

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 14-06-2020 08:36PM

History Queen wrote: »

Agreed. If we could get all parents and teachers demanding that the Dept cop on to themselves maybe something positive could come from this. I could stand to be corrected on this but there's no clear guidance on the running of July provision either, this scheme deals with some of our most vulnerable students, they cannot be left fend for themselves or worse, have schools unable to run the scheme becauseguidance wasn't provided.

Even if you take something as simple as say hand sanitiser stations, the logistics of numbers required, locations, supplying and installing those into every school in the country and securing an ongoing supply is something that needs to be done yesterday.

Now if school Principals aren't aware of even those type of obvious things (and even something that straightforward needs local input) then the plans are severely lacking.

I will be glad if schools can return to as close to normal as possible but the apparent lack of any forward planning is concerning that it could be a last-minute.com effort.

khalessi · 14-06-2020 08:38PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Even if you take something as simple as say hand sanitiser stations, the logistics of numbers required, locations, supplying and installing those into every school in the country and securing an ongoing supply is something that needs to be done yesterday.

Now if school Principals aren't aware of even those type of obvious things (and even something that straightforward needs local input) then the plans are severely lacking.

I will be glad if schools can return to as close to normal as possible but the apparent lack of any forward planning is concerning that it could be a last-minute.com effort.

The Principals are aware but the funding has to come from the Dept, the amount of beaucracy for just hand sanitizer is crazy

brendanwalsh · 14-06-2020 08:40PM

firemansam4 wrote: »

There is always going to be a few situations like this, and again maybe special conditions need to be made under these circumstances.

This virus is going to be with us a very long time, a vaccine anytime soon is just a fantasy. Children have already missed nearly 4 months of school, and this is going to have a disastrous effect on them if they continue to miss school. This part time school idea won't be much help, kids need to get back to school full time.

Now the argument has been made that we are putting Teachers lives at risk to facilitate this, I countered this by showing evidence that for those who are under 44 and in good health there is nearly the same chance of being killed in a motor accident as from dying of covid 19.

Now by all means extra investment and as many measures as possible need to be made to try and minimise the risk of spread as much as possible.
But I just don't think we can keep sacrificing our children's education for a virus that now seems to be very low in the community.

You have to protect all staff.

What’s your suggestion to protect staff who are Immunosuppressed? Or children immunosuppressed?
How will you ensure protection of children with cystic fibrosis?

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 14-06-2020 08:45PM

khalessi wrote: »

The Principals are aware but the funding has to come from the Dept, the amount of beaucracy for just hand sanitizer is crazy

There should be no question mark over where funding is coming from, for what will be a very basic requirement.

The department need to confirm that they are funding and arranging supply and fit, the only questions for Principals should be how many do you need and where do you want them.

You'd have thought those type of practical things would be well in hand by now and definitely before any 'plan' was unveiled.

khalessi · 14-06-2020 08:45PM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

You have to protect all staff.

What’s your suggestion to protect staff who are Immunosuppressed? Or children immunosuppressed?
How will you ensure protection of children with cystic fibrosis?

I have seen one suggestion for CF so far and having CF in my family I am paying attention.

It has been suggested in her school that she be allowed wear a mask or plastic faceguard if she wishes. They already have had extensive hygiene measures in place for a number of years for children with CF.

Also in the back of each classroom, it has been suggested to have a row of tables for children with CF or asthma or other immunocompromised illnesses who wish to attend school. These tables at the back of the room will have Perpex on 3 sides of the desk to help protect them.

They also are being consulted about other measures that the child/ family would like to see.

brendanwalsh · 14-06-2020 08:46PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Some on here confusing not wanting to work with wanting the workplace to be as safe as is reasonably possible before returning.

Statements like "put them on the covid payment" aren't helpful. All education staff are asking for is the same care, that is observed in other workplaces, be observed in schools too.

Some solutions would be helpful.

How will 500-1200 students safely occupy the same building from 9-4?

How will handwashing be carried out given the paucity of WC facilities in most schools? Same for toilet breaks.

Will canteens operate at all or will kids bring packed lunch and remain in a pod and/or the same room for the day?

Do we dispense with PE for the year? Are school sports done for now?

What happens practical equipment after each use? Do we split practical groups and teach the same stuff 2/3 times?

Masks and temperature checks for all? Who will be responsible for it?

How do students safely enter school buildings? How do we manage buses?

Plenty to be teased out.

Leo's 'bespoke solution for schools' should worry anyone concerned with student/staff health as it currently seems to mean doing away with all guidelines observed in other areas of employment.

And before anyone else starts. Yes, I want to go back to school. Yes, the closure of schools is detrimental to student development but that doesn't mean you don't seek the best solution for all before returning and try to avoid unnecessary health risks.

Great comment, hope you’ve posted it somewhere other than boards!! Email it to your BOM and the DOH

brendanwalsh · 14-06-2020 08:47PM

khalessi wrote: »

I have seen one suggestion for CF so far and having CF in my family I am paying attention.

It has been suggested in her school that she be allowed wear a mask or plastic faceguard if she wishes. They already have had extensive hygiene measures in place for a number of years for children with CF.

Also in the back of each classroom, it has been suggested to have a row of tables for children with CF or asthma or other immunocompromised illnesses who wish to attend school. These tables at the back of the room will have Perpex on 3 sides of the desk to help protect them.

They also are being consulted about other measures that the child/ family would like to see.

Ok, but other students not wearing masks could spread it still.

How do you protect immunosuppressed staff?

khalessi · 14-06-2020 08:48PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There should be no question mark over where funding is coming from, for what will be a very basic requirement.

The department need to confirm that they are funding and arranging supply and fit, the only questions for Principals should be how many do you need and where do you want them.

You'd have thought those type of practical things would be well in hand by now and definitely before any 'plan' was unveiled.

I agree there should be no question, but sadly there is as the go ahead to buy has to be given by the Dept, one of the reasons I feel heavily let down by Fridays supposed guidelines. Principals truly beieved that we could get up and running with planning following the release of guidelines we were supposed to get on Friday but none and the public are angry at the teachers when they should be angry at the Department. Just because principals may have an idea of what they need doesnt mean they can get it unless sanctioined. It is ridiculous.

khalessi · 14-06-2020 09:05PM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Ok, but other students not wearing masks could spread it still.

How do you protect immunosuppressed staff?

Yes the other children could still spread it. So CF child or immunosuppressed child in masks all day and will possibly limit how she mixes with the children. Handwashing and cough etiquette encouraged.

Well a teacher texted me for advice on this yesterday and I said wear a mask in September, along with continuing to social distance, encourage hand washing and cough etiquette. As that is all we seem to have so far. Even the hand hygiene could be an issue re funding. As it is teachers in my school already buy cleaning products for the desks and hand sanitizer for the classroom, along with packets of tissues.

firemansam4 · 14-06-2020 09:09PM

brendanwalsh wrote:

You have to protect all staff.

Whatâ€™s your suggestion to protect staff who are Immunosuppressed? Or children immunosuppressed? How will you ensure protection of children with cystic fibrosis?

There is going to be cases for some children and teachers who will need special protection.
Unfortunately I think if the risk is that high, they should not be returning to school for now.

There is not going to be any magic answer that I or anyone else can give you that will cover all eventualities.

I agree a lot more planning for this needs to be put in place and any vulnerable children or teachers should not be forced back to school.

But IMO we need to do everything possible to get children back to school full time in September.

Boggles · 14-06-2020 09:12PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I was thinking more how restaurants adapted and did takeaway

The vast majority of restaurants always did take away, they didn't adapt they focused on a procedure they all ready had place.

How it applies to schools reopening I have no idea.

brendanwalsh · 14-06-2020 09:16PM

firemansam4 wrote: »

There is going to be cases for some children and teachers who will need special protection.
Unfortunately I think if the risk is that high, they should not be returning to school for now.

There is not going to be any magic answer that I or anyone else can give you that will cover all eventualities.

I agree a lot more planning for this needs to be put in place and any vulnerable children or teachers should not be forced back to school.

But IMO we need to do everything possible to get children back to school full time in September.

Ok. Department of schools will need to make a mechanism for immunosuppressed staff so to make themselves known

khalessi · 14-06-2020 09:22PM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Ok. Department of schools will need to make a mechanism for immunosuppressed staff so to make themselves known

What would being on this list mean?

There are many illnesses which would have been easily managed and not have been affected by teaching in a school environment, prior to Covid19 such as Lupus, Crohns Disease, Ulcerative Colitis, Psoriasis Asthma, etc Would these teachers who feel medically well but are immunosuppressed due to the illness or the medications be allowed teach from home? Or what would be suggessted in their case.

Jizique · 14-06-2020 09:26PM

firemansam4 wrote: »

There is going to be cases for some children and teachers who will need special protection.
Unfortunately I think if the risk is that high, they should not be returning to school for now.

There is not going to be any magic answer that I or anyone else can give you that will cover all eventualities.

I agree a lot more planning for this needs to be put in place and any vulnerable children or teachers should not be forced back to school.

But IMO we need to do everything possible to get children back to school full time in September.

First item must be to find out how many students and staff fit into this category. Can perhaps the teachers who are unable to go back be tasked with reaching kids who are unable to go back remotely?
Impossible to know at this stage but we need to put numbers on it. That will help with the planning

brendanwalsh · 14-06-2020 09:28PM

khalessi wrote: »

What would being on this list mean?

There are many illnesses which would have been easily managed and not have been affected by teaching in a school environment, prior to Covid19 such as Lupus, Crohns Disease, Ulcerative Colitis, Psoriasis Asthma, etc Would these teachers who feel medically well but are immunosuppressed due to the illness or the medications be allowed teach from home? Or what would be suggessted in their case.

Yes agree.
Alternative needs to be found for these people.
They risk life threatening infection if they contract covid.

wirelessdude01 · 14-06-2020 09:30PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There should be no question mark over where funding is coming from, for what will be a very basic requirement.

The department need to confirm that they are funding and arranging supply and fit, the only questions for Principals should be how many do you need and where do you want them.

You'd have thought those type of practical things would be well in hand by now and definitely before any 'plan' was unveiled.

Welcome to the dept of education everyone. The lastminute.com purveyors of information to those that are in need of it. It's a runny joke for us in education that circulars are released at 4;55pm on Fridays containing information that needs to be implemented from the start of the following week. Now maybe people can understand why we educators want guidance and guidelines now as we don't trust them to actually provide them in a timely fashion. Sometime during the summer really isn't good enough. I guarantee that any funding provided will be far too small.

shellycub · 14-06-2020 09:36PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

There should be no question mark over where funding is coming from, for what will be a very basic requirement.

The department need to confirm that they are funding and arranging supply and fit, the only questions for Principals should be how many do you need and where do you want them.

You'd have thought those type of practical things would be well in hand by now and definitely before any 'plan' was unveiled.

Absolutely there should be no question but unfortunately this is what happens. Promises are made and schools are left waiting to organise by themselves with little to no guidance or resources.

r93kaey5p2izun · 14-06-2020 09:48PM

As an example, I know of 6 teachers from my former school who have been advised to cocoon. All are aged in the 25 to 55 range. Three are on immunosuppressants for psoriasis or Crohn's. One has Cushing's disease. One has lupus. One had a transplant. These are just the teachers I know well enough or whose illness was common knowledge. There could very easily be others who kept their condition quiet. Replacing 6 teachers will be a major issue, particularly when subjects are considered (one Chemistry, one Irish, one Home Ec among them).

On top of that there are 7 teachers in their 60s - I wouldn't be surprised to see them retire. Even if two retire that would be 8 to replace, possibly including Maths/Irish.

Teacher supply needs to be a major part of the government plan, even if they cross their fingers and toes and hope most will go back with no special arrangements. And parents need to realise the scale of recruitment and retention issues in schools.

wirelessdude01 · 14-06-2020 09:53PM

Yosef Stocky Backspace wrote: »

As an example, I know of 6 teachers from my former school who have been advised to cocoon. All are aged in the 25 to 55 range. Three are on immunosuppressants for psoriasis or Crohn's. One has Cushing's disease. One has lupus. One had a transplant. These are just the teachers I know well enough or whose illness was common knowledge. There could very easily be others who kept their condition quiet. Replacing 6 teachers will be a major issue, particularly when subjects are considered (one Chemistry, one Irish, one Home Ec among them).

On top of that there are 7 teachers in their 60s - I wouldn't be surprised to see them retire. Even if two retire that would be 8 to replace, possibly including Maths/Irish.

Teacher supply needs to be a major part of the government plan, even if they cross their fingers and toes and hope most will go back with no special arrangements. And parents need to realise the scale of recruitment and retention issues in schools.

In my school of 11 teachers, I think 2 possibly 3 may have issues if there is guidance given re being immunocompromised. The current 6th would have had 5 children, between CF, asthma and medication for heart issues that could have been advised to take precautions.

downthemiddle · 14-06-2020 10:12PM

Unfortunately, I believe schools are heading into the eye of a storm. The DES have set the agenda and given parents expectations that schools will be unable to meet.
A set of protocols will be produced laced with Orwellian doublespeak. An apparent large sum of money will be announced and the expectation will be that schools are being well catered for.
The reality will be that the money will cover an extra hour of cleaning per week and a couple of bottles of hand sanitiser in individual schools. Lip service will be paid to the staffing issues that will undoubtedly arise without dealing with the problem.
Schools will then make the best of the situation and use their usual inventive methods of covering the deep flaws in an inadequately funded system.
Meanwhile parents will wonder why schools are not providing the service that the minister promised. The media will take schools to task and union leaders will appear defensive when they criticise the DES.

iamwhoiam · 14-06-2020 10:19PM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Unfortunately, I believe schools are heading into the eye of a storm. The DES have set the agenda and given parents expectations that schools will be unable to meet.
A set of protocols will be produced laced with Orwellian doublespeak. An apparent large sum of money will be announced and the expectation will be that schools are being well catered for.
The reality will be that the money will cover an extra hour of cleaning per week and a couple of bottles of hand sanitiser in individual schools. Lip service will be paid to the staffing issues that will undoubtedly arise without dealing with the problem.
Schools will then make the best of the situation and use their usual inventive methods of covering the deep flaws in an inadequately funded system.
Meanwhile parents will wonder why schools are not providing the service that the minister promised. The media will take schools to task and union leaders will appear defensive when they criticise the DES.

I would well believe it . Same happened with health care over the years . Promises , promises and nothing materialised . The staff picked up the slack and kept the health services from collapsing .

byhookorbycrook · 14-06-2020 10:27PM

Ten weeks in , the DES sent “ guidelines for remote learning” to schools . Based on that - and previous DES form , expect guidance for schools to land at 4.55 at midterm

JRant · 14-06-2020 10:31PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I would well believe it . Same happened with health care over the years . Promises , promises and nothing materialised . The staff picked up the slack and kept the health services from collapsing .

Indeed, there's a thin veneer of bullshït that when striped away shows the absolute shambles a lot of our Public services have been left in after this past 10 years. Health care, residential care, and schooling are but the tip of the iceberg.

Hard working teachers and parents will yet again paper over the cracks left by incompetent government while they give themselves a huge pat on the back for a job well done.

wirelessdude01 · 14-06-2020 10:32PM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Unfortunately, I believe schools are heading into the eye of a storm. The DES have set the agenda and given parents expectations that schools will be unable to meet.
A set of protocols will be produced laced with Orwellian doublespeak. An apparent large sum of money will be announced and the expectation will be that schools are being well catered for.
The reality will be that the money will cover an extra hour of cleaning per week and a couple of bottles of hand sanitiser in individual schools. Lip service will be paid to the staffing issues that will undoubtedly arise without dealing with the problem.
Schools will then make the best of the situation and use their usual inventive methods of covering the deep flaws in an inadequately funded system.
Meanwhile parents will wonder why schools are not providing the service that the minister promised. The media will take schools to task and union leaders will appear defensive when they criticise the DES.

See essentially the status quo.

They already pulled this stunt with all the millions they promised for ICT. It's peanuts really and when divided out by each school is nothing, but to Joe and Josephine it appears like they are providing funding.

khalessi · 14-06-2020 10:33PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Ten weeks in , the DES sent “ guidelines for remote learning” to schools . Based on that - and previous DES form , expect guidance for schools to land at 4.55 at midterm

Guidelines that they came up with after sending an email to schools asking what teachers were doing re online teaching.

Scoondal · 14-06-2020 10:46PM

Most other EU countries already have students back in class. But Ireland is different because, but but this and that (oh and the teachers are on full salary for two hours work per day).

khalessi · 14-06-2020 10:49PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Most other EU countries already have students back in class. But Ireland is different because, but but this and that (oh and the teachers are on full salary for two hours work per day).

Thank you Scoondal for your input, thoroughly enlightening. As you know most EU countries have partial openings and teachers here for the most part are doing more than 2 hours a day, mind you some are on holidays now while I am waiting until the end of the month.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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