How will schools be able to go back in September?

Scoondal

I have had e-mail contact with my son's teacher and school principal. My responses were either "ooh we feel your pain" or just nothing. I want definite proposals from the school about how my child can return to his constitutional right to be educated.

Scoondal

khalessi wrote: »

Thank you Scoondal for your input, thoroughly enlightening. As you know most EU countries have partial openings and teachers here for the most part are doing more than 2 hours a day, mind you some are on holidays now while I am waiting until the end of the month.

EU teachers have been working IN THE CLASSROOM.
Other countries have already adjusted to this situation. But in Ireland ... ooh maybe 1 day per week in September. What rubbish.

downthemiddle

Scoondal wrote: »

Most other EU countries already have students back in class. But Ireland is different because, but but this and that (oh and the teachers are on full salary for two hours work per day).

I'll give you a clue as to why there may be some issues following the current social distancing guidelines.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-primary-schools-bottom-of-the-class-for-class-sizes-and-funding-in-europe-949949.html
Irish primary school classes are among the largest and worst-funded in Europe, a report has found.

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report found that the average class size in Irish primary schools is 25, compared with an EU average of 20.

Ireland is also bottom of the table when it comes to investment and funding, which has dropped significantly between 2010 and 2016

khalessi

Scoondal wrote: »

I have had e-mail contact with my son's teacher and school principal. My responses were either "ooh we feel your pain" or just nothing. I want definite proposals from the school about how my child can return to his constitutional right to be educated.

I understand that as have had similar from one of my children's teachers and sent an email giving out about the lack of guidance on how to do maths as page numbers dont cut it. Meanwhile I am putting in 10 hour days and for the first time last weekend didnt answer emails from kids over the weekend and felt bad about it. But not all teachers have had that approach of just an email.

Like yourself as a teacher, I would like guidance too as Friday's supposed guidance was a huge let down with their social media soundbite of bespoke solutions. Parents cannot be given guidance if the Department are not giving it to schools

downthemiddle

Scoondal wrote: »

I have had e-mail contact with my son's teacher and school principal. My responses were either "ooh we feel your pain" or just nothing. I want definite proposals from the school about how my child can return to his constitutional right to be educated.

According to the same constitution parents are the primary educator of the child. You are clearly enjoying your constitutional rights.

Scoondal

EU schools are open.
Irish schools are closed.
Why ?

khalessi

Scoondal wrote: »

EU schools are open.
Irish schools are closed.
Why ?

Believe it or not nothing to do with teachers. Have you heard of NPHET or Dept of Education? NPHET have been advising the government on lots of people working from home. So the majority of teachers have been working from home.

Dickie10

why? its mid june, what on earth would be the point of opening for less than 2 weeks then closing again, thats madness, leave til sept 1st when were this far gone now

downthemiddle

Scoondal wrote: »

EU schools are open.
Irish schools are closed.
Why ?

Because the government closed them on the advice of health experts.

addaword

Scoondal wrote: »

EU schools are open.
Irish schools are closed.
Why ?

We all know why, deep down.

It is not good for the kids to be away from a school environment for 6 months.

Society cannot function properly when working parents often struggling to pay mortgages, struggle with the double whammy of wfh and trying to look after kids at home at the same time.

downthemiddle

addaword wrote: »

We all know why, deep down.

It is not good for the kids to be away from a school environment for 6 months.

Society cannot function properly when working parents often struggling to pay mortgages, struggle with the double whammy of wfh and trying to look after kids at home at the same time.

Why do you think, deep down?

khalessi

addaword wrote: »

We all know why, deep down.

It is not good for the kids to be away from a school environment for 6 months.

Society cannot function properly when working parents often struggling to pay mortgages, struggle with the double whammy of wfh and trying to look after kids at home at the same time.

Yes deep down we all know there was a pandemic and NPHET advised closure.

wirelessdude01

Scoondal wrote: »

I have had e-mail contact with my son's teacher and school principal. My responses were either "ooh we feel your pain" or just nothing. I want definite proposals from the school about how my child can return to his constitutional right to be educated.

Your ire is better directed at the dept and minister. None of us that are actually in schools know anything about September. If you read this thread that is very obvious

addaword

Dickie10 wrote: »

why? its mid june, what on earth would be the point of opening for less than 2 weeks then closing again, thats madness,

Open now for a month so. Elsewhere many schools do not go on holidays until mid July.

The kids could do with some structure and education , parents wfh need to get some work done too.

It would be a great learning experience and preparation for Sept, but hey lets take the easy option for some.

sideswipe

downthemiddle wrote: »

According to the same constitution parents are the primary educator of the child. You are clearly enjoying your constitutional rights.

There’s a difference between ‘primary educator’ and the Constitutional right to formal education in a school setting. Parents are not ‘teachers’ When it come to the school curriculum.

downthemiddle

sideswipe wrote: »

There’s a difference between ‘primary educator’ and the Constitutional right to formal education in a school setting. Parents are not ‘teachers’ When it come to the school curriculum.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article42

ARTICLE 42

1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

Unfortunately our founding fathers failed to legislate for a pandemic.

morebabies

We have medically vulnerable family members, my main concern is directed at the Department - thankfully I am in a position to school from home, but with 2 in secondary school, how do we navigate the Classroom Based Assessments and the coursework at Junior and Leaving Cert level? At the moment they could sit exams as external candidates but would have to forfeit the marks from project and coursework.

Chicoso

morebabies wrote: »

We have medically vulnerable family members, my main concern is directed at the Department - thankfully I am in a position to school from home, but with 2 in secondary school, how do we navigate the Classroom Based Assessments and the coursework at Junior and Leaving Cert level? At the moment they could sit exams as external candidates but would have to forfeit the marks from project and coursework.

Schools will be open September

double jobbing

addaword wrote: »

Open now for a month so. Elsewhere many schools do not go on holidays until mid July.

The kids could do with some structure and education , parents wfh need to get some work done too.

It would be a great learning experience and preparation for Sept, but hey lets take the easy option for some.

Good luck with getting the unions to agree to that one. Teachers would have the class thought by pre recorded DVD's if they could get away with it.

khalessi

double jobbing wrote: »

Good luck with getting the unions to agree to that one. Teachers would have the class thought by pre recorded DVD's if they could get away with it.

Sad and pathetic commentary but thank you for your enlightening input

Chicoso

Teachers are mostly mad to get bad interacting with students

Covid19 Is being parked atm by the main players, a lot of uncertainty out there about the virus

JDxtra

Anything less than full time in-school education from September onwards will not be acceptable.

Parents in large numbers have worked full time from home in addition to caring for and educating their children. Many are working longer hours to facilitate this. Some even have had forced pay cuts from their employers. Children are missing a formal education and their circle of school friends.

Teachers are on full pay. Each week we get an email with work to be completed. It’s poorly put together and often cannot be followed. I’d be surprised if the primary school teachers of my children spend more than 30 minutes per week on compiling this. No video messages, no online collaboration, no personal contact to students whatsoever.

So, you can see why parents have had enough. The threat of the virus in the community is greatly diminished now, let alone after another 2.5 months of low numbers. Enough of the excuses. We have to live with the virus from now onwards. Schools will reopen.

khalessi

JDxtra wrote: »

Anything less than full time in-school education from September onwards will not be acceptable.

Parents in large numbers have worked full time from home in addition to caring for and educating their children. Many are working longer hours to facilitate this. Some even have had forced pay cuts from their employers. Children are missing a formal education and their circle of school friends.

Teachers are on full pay. Each week we get an email with work to be completed. It’s poorly put together and often cannot be followed. I’d be surprised if the primary school teachers of my children spend more than 30 minutes per week on compiling this. No video messages, no online collaboration, no personal contact to students whatsoever.

So, you can see why parents have had enough. The threat of the virus in the community is greatly diminished now, let alone after another 2.5 months of low numbers. Enough of the excuses. We have to live with the virus from now onwards. Schools will reopen.

Teachers will follow whatever are the health and safety recommentations at the time. However they will request enhnced hygiene which is no harm considering what is there already.

Regarding your input from your child's teacher, they are working, but if you feel it is insufficient contact the school. I received similar with no indication how to do particular aspects of the curriculum so I got in touch with the school and said it. Meanwhile I have already done 3 hours work today and will be online with students until about 430 then answering emails later.

screamer

JDxtra wrote: »

Anything less than full time in-school education from September onwards will not be acceptable.

Parents in large numbers have worked full time from home in addition to caring for and educating their children. Many are working longer hours to facilitate this. Some even have had forced pay cuts from their employers. Children are missing a formal education and their circle of school friends.

Teachers are on full pay. Each week we get an email with work to be completed. It’s poorly put together and often cannot be followed. I’d be surprised if the primary school teachers of my children spend more than 30 minutes per week on compiling this. No video messages, no online collaboration, no personal contact to students whatsoever.

So, you can see why parents have had enough. The threat of the virus in the community is greatly diminished now, let alone after another 2.5 months of low numbers. Enough of the excuses. We have to live with the virus from now onwards. Schools will reopen.

Yes many of us parents have had a tough time during the lockdown but my kids at least have a great teacher who is setting and correcting work with them on a daily basis and is always contactable via the school app. I can’t say enough good things about her commitment to the kids and their education, so from the education point of view I don’t have an issue at all. Safety concerns are a different issue and I would not expect my workplace to call us all in “as normal”. I expect safety guidelines, reduced numbers in the office, adequate space for distancing and deep cleaning of the office spaces. I would not expect anyone to work in worse conditions, and I don’t think it’s right to force teachers to work in such conditions just so parents can go back to work. I also don’t want my children’s health put at risk.

JDxtra

khalessi wrote: »

Regarding your input from your child's teacher, they are working, but if you feel it is insufficient contact the school. I received similar with no indication how to do particular aspects of the curriculum so I got in touch with the school and said it. Meanwhile I have already done 3 hours work today and will be online with students until about 430 then answering emails later.

I appreciate many teachers are going above and beyond and have heard the same. I have a different experience with my local school and would describe the overall effort from them as very lacklustre. I've contacted the principal a number of times and so have other parents but nothing has changed. At this stage it's not worth the grief.

JDxtra

screamer wrote: »

Yes many of us parents have had a tough time during the lockdown but my kids at least have a great teacher who is setting and correcting work with them on a daily basis and is always contactable via the school app. I can’t say enough good things about her commitment to the kids and their education, so from the education point of view I don’t have an issue at all.

That sounds great and is exactly the standard I would expect. The fact that school app was mentioned seems so alien - I can see my local school screaming their "GDPR" speech right now if I mentioned a school app to them!

firemansam4

screamer wrote:

Yes many of us parents have had a tough time during the lockdown but my kids at least have a great teacher who is setting and correcting work with them on a daily basis and is always contactable via the school app. I can’t say enough good things about her commitment to the kids and their education, so from the education point of view I don’t have an issue at all. Safety concerns are a different issue and I would not expect my workplace to call us all in “as normalâ€. I expect safety guidelines, reduced numbers in the office, adequate space for distancing and deep cleaning of the office spaces. I would not expect anyone to work in worse conditions, and I don’t think it’s right to force teachers to work in such conditions just so parents can go back to work. I also don’t want my children’s health put at risk.

Not all other jobs are like yours though. I can tell you there are many like myself that have had to work right through this crisis and although the work place might be putting barriers and signs up claiming to be adhering to social distancing guidelines. In practice it's just not possible a lot of the time and there are many workers who just don't take any notice of the guidelines.

I dont like it but I still go into work because we are in the food industry and need to keep supply going to shops and supermarkets.

Do I worry for my own health? No because I am under 44 and in relatively good health. But I have to take extra care when I was visiting my mum and dad to drop off there shopping, my one worry is catching this thing and giving it to someone more vulnerable.

I see all the time shops that have barriers up and customers just going to the side of them barriers and paying for items - no 2m distancing there.

On children's safety, if your child is in good health there is probably more risk for them driving in a car than becoming seriously ill and dying from this disease.
I would not want to put any of my children's lives at risk, but I think for the very small risk of this virus to them, there loss of education is having a worse effect for them.

I have to agree that our teachers are also doing a great job with the home teaching, also using an app and helping everyday with any problems.

FishOnABike

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Who will impose these fines? I know full well that the type of parent who would do this won't pay the fine anyway. Also they won't answer the phone when the school number comes up.

I had a child puke all over the place one day,said they had been sick before they came in but that mammy had given them a tablet and told them that they would be fine at school. Didn't answer repeated phone calls from the school. Granny had to be rang then. Granny dumped mammy in it when she came to collect the poor child. Said straight out that mammy wasn't working that day. Found out through a different parent later in the week that the mammy in question had been sat at the hairdresser and looked at her phone and put it away. The parent that said it to me was in the chair beside her!!!!!!

Simple protocol would be that each school has a supervised quarantine area with a higher level of protection, greater distancing, protective barriers, improved air extraction, .... Any pupils showing up with potential symptoms should be immediately moved to the quarantine area, parent(s) contacted to arrange transport home and the pupil should not be readmitted to school until they have either a negative test result or 14 days, or whatever appropriate quarantine period, has elapsed.

This is the sort if guidance, and resources to put it in place, that should be coming from the Department of Education and Skills. They should be running different scenarios (from best to worst case) based on how prevalent CoViD-19 might be when it's time to go back to school. Instead we seem to have a vague aspiration that things will be as near 'normal' as possible but if they're not we've no money to do anything different, but shire we hope it will all work out. As the saying goes 'hope is not a plan'.

There needs to be consistent policy and protocols developed, published, supported and funded. Leaving it up to individual schools to develop bespoke solutions is an abdication of duty. The Department of Education and Skills seems to be falling down badly in its responsibilities here.

Murple

FishOnABike wrote: »

Simple protocol would be that each school has a supervised quarantine area with a higher level of protection, greater distancing, protective barriers, improved air extraction, .... Any pupils showing up with potential symptoms should be immediately moved to the quarantine area, parent(s) contacted to arrange transport home and the pupil should not be readmitted to school until they have either a negative test result or 14 days, or whatever appropriate quarantine period, has elapsed.

This is the sort if guidance, and resources to put it in place, that should be coming from the Department of Education and Skills.

You see it seems like a simple solution but most schools would then need to ask who supervises this quarantine area as few schools have an adult available to sit in such an area. Usually a child who is unwell is only a few feet from the rest of the class so the class teacher can maintain supervision.
And it may not be just one child. You'd be surprised how many children could be unwell on a given day. Also do you automatically quarantine any siblings that are in the school as well? That could lead to a situation where you may have 6 or 7 children from 3 different families needing to be quarantined for possibly several hours as it can often be that long before a parent comes to collect them.
You can't put them all together as one child may just have a tummy bug, another could just be starting a head cold and another may actually have this virus. So that would mean needing several quarantine areas, away from other children and supervised by staff who would also need to be protected.

FishOnABike

Murple wrote: »

You see it seems like a simple solution but most schools would then need to ask who supervises this quarantine area as few schools have an adult available to sit in such an area. Usually a child who is unwell is only a few feet from the rest of the class so the class teacher can maintain supervision.
And it may not be just one child. You'd be surprised how many children could be unwell on a given day. Also do you automatically quarantine any siblings that are in the school as well? That could lead to a situation where you may have 6 or 7 children from 3 different families needing to be quarantined for possibly several hours as it can often be that long before a parent comes to collect them.
You can't put them all together as one child may just have a tummy bug, another could just be starting a head cold and another may actually have this virus. So that would mean needing several quarantine areas, away from other children and supervised by staff who would also need to be protected.

Yes, even the simple things aren't so simple when it comes to the detailed planning which is why proper planning and resourcing is needed from the department but all there seems to be so far are empty aspirations.

Even this one simple issue - what do we do if a pupil turns up with potential CoViD-19 symptoms - could do with a deep dive to try anticipate the issues it might throw up and try identify solutions so schools can be given a consistent and workable set of guidelines how to manage the situation and the resources to follow those guidelines.

Add in any number of other issues, how is day to day running of a school impacted, what preventative measures need to be put in place, how to manage shared use of equipment in practical classes, increased staff and/student absenteeism, how should a school respond if there were a number of cases or cluster - are there thresholds where a pod (is the pod idea even workable in second level where different students have different subject mixes), class or school should be quarantined. If a staff member or pupil is diagnosed who has to be quarantined and / or tested his are contacts traced, what constitutes a contact in a school environment?

At the moment there appears to be little or no indication from the department beyond we hope it will be grand.

It's not an easy set of problems to solve and it shouldn't be left up to each individual school to reinvent the wheel and try come up with 'bespoke' solutions without any guidance or resources from the department whose responsibility is to make policy decisions and resource our education sector.