How will schools be able to go back in September?

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 14-06-2020 12:57AM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Doctors, nurses, guards, fire fighters, air hostesses - hardly the only one?

None of the above share a room with 30 other people.

In hospitals, visitors are limited, patients are brought into rooms for check-ups individually.

If you see a GP, you can't wait in the waiting room, you wait in your car til called in.

But we'll have 500-1,200 students in a building all day, feed them in a canteen and let them use toilet facilities so inadequate it's disgusting.

little bess · 14-06-2020 03:01AM

Murple wrote: »

Parents will have to get used to keeping a child at home when they have colds and coughs and temperatures.

Just being offhand here, but can imagine the nightmare this could cause.
Parents sending children in because they cant take days off work due to pressure from work.

My old workplace (hse) was a nightmare for parents with young children having to take days off. Thanking my lucky stars I don’t have small kids anymore and even more so that I don’t work for the HSE anymore.
Good luck to those that that do.

harr · 14-06-2020 03:14AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Parents will have to take responsibility too . Temp checks before school , teach hand hygiene over and over . Give the kids a pack with hand sanitizer a small towel and toilet paper every day . Thankfully most parents I know and in the area would be happy to do that .

Hopefully all adults, parents , teachers , minders , SNAs etc will pull together and help the children deal with it . The children need us to be united and putting the kids first

While most responsible parents would act in that way I can guarantee you a lot wouldn’t , not going by how some parents acted themselves during lock down some hope of them passing good protocol onto the kids. Kids will be dumped onto the school for teachers to sort out.

annoyedgal · 14-06-2020 08:24AM

I've been to the doctor and maternity hospital numerous times since this started. It is far from business as usual. Strict social distancing and ppe. If it's required to be closer than 2 m the health care professional has ppe and limits exposure to as quickly as possible. Also two people to a room max.
Hardly compares to a class of up to 30 kids for six odd hours a day. Yes we all want business as usual as it's convenient. Should hospitals and health care staff drop all protective measures come September? Should supermarkets stop limiting the number of customers?
Wanting it is one thing but the reality is different. You can't treat one section of workforce as different to others because it's an inconvience. Comparing fire fighters and guards is nonsensical as these are life saving essential services.
I will be almost nine months pregnant returning in September and will not be returning if I'm not afforded the same protections as others members of workforce.
Anyone cribbing about teachers not getting on with it without ppe and distancing needs to get their head out of the sand. You wouldn't ask hairdressers to work without ppe in an overcrowded badly ventilated room. And spare a thought for students with underlying issues.
We need proper guidelines and concrete proposals not wishful thinking.

giveitholly · 14-06-2020 08:53AM

annoyedgal wrote: »

I've been to the doctor and maternity hospital numerous times since this started. It is far from business as usual. Strict social distancing and ppe. If it's required to be closer than 2 m the health care professional has ppe and limits exposure to as quickly as possible. Also two people to a room max.
Hardly compares to a class of up to 30 kids for six odd hours a day. Yes we all want business as usual as it's convenient. Should hospitals and health care staff drop all protective measures come September? Should supermarkets stop limiting the number of customers?
Wanting it is one thing but the reality is different. You can't treat one section of workforce as different to others because it's an inconvience. Comparing fire fighters and guards is nonsensical as these are life saving essential services.
I will be almost nine months pregnant returning in September and will not be returning if I'm not afforded the same protections as others members of workforce.
Anyone cribbing about teachers not getting on with it without ppe and distancing needs to get their head out of the sand. You wouldn't ask hairdressers to work without ppe in an overcrowded badly ventilated room. And spare a thought for students with underlying issues.
We need proper guidelines and concrete proposals not wishful thinking.

And if teachers can't go back to work in September do you think they should continue to get full pay when they are unable to do their work.How long can the state afford to keep paying teachers full wage? Should they not go onto the €350 covid payment?

History Queen · 14-06-2020 09:00AM

giveitholly wrote: »

And if teachers can't go back to work in September do you think they should continue to get full pay when they are unable to do their work.How long can the state afford to keep paying teachers full wage? Should they not go onto the €350 covid payment?

If teachers are working remotely doing blended learning etc they should be paid. If not working then we should be on Covid payment. I do think that's fair enough. I can't see us being told not to teach though.

annoyedgal · 14-06-2020 09:06AM

If teachers are working remotely doing blended learning etc they should be paid. If not working then we should be on Covid payment. I do think that's fair enough. I can't see us being told not to teach though.

Exactly this.

average_runner · 14-06-2020 09:08AM

History Queen wrote: »

If teachers are working remotely doing blended learning etc they should be paid. If not working then we should be on Covid payment. I do think that's fair enough. I can't see us being told not to teach though.

Remote working wont work for the families where both parents are working from home.
Parents cant do both.

Also very unfair to the kids

Lillyfae · 14-06-2020 09:10AM

annoyedgal wrote: »

I will be almost nine months pregnant returning in September and will not be returning if I'm not afforded the same protections as others members of workforce.

Go on maternity leave then?

History Queen · 14-06-2020 09:12AM

average_runner wrote: »

Remote working wont work for the families where both parents are working from home.
Parents cant do both.

Also very unfair to the kids

I agree. It is crap. I'm a teacher and have a son myself. It was awful trying to teach online and take care of him (my husband was out at work every day). I want to go back. I was just making the point that if we couldn't and we were to continue remote teaching our wages should be paid. That's all. I'm not saying online learning is the answer at all.

average_runner · 14-06-2020 09:16AM

History Queen wrote: »

I agree. It is crap. I'm a teacher and have a son myself. It was awful trying to teach online and take care of him (mu husband was out at work every day). I want to go back. I was just makkng the point that if we couldn't and we were to continue remote teaching our wages should be paid. That's all. I'm not saying online learning is the answer at all.

Fair enough.
From a parent I cant see it working for the kids.
My two will start their homework at 9 each day and be done by 1030. There is no point in the teacher doing anymore, as they dont want to.
They miss their school friends but are keeping their teachers for another year which is good.

The kids are playing on the road these days, sport with social distancing in july, but then matches in August.

So the best teachers can hope for is masks on the teachers and no social distancing. Putting masks on the kids will do more harm than good

deiseindublin · 14-06-2020 09:25AM

As usual posters, are happy to ignore the difference between indoor and outdoor risk.

What service has opened up fully indoor with no PPE or extra funding?

average_runner · 14-06-2020 09:28AM

deiseindublin wrote: »

As usual posters, are happy to ignore the difference between indoor and outdoor risk.

What service has opened up fully indoor with no PPE or extra funding?

A good few offices have opened up last week, all staff in, temp taken, hand cleaning kit and masks

iamwhoiam · 14-06-2020 09:45AM

By September lots more indoor activities will be going ahead .Lets wait and see what the mingling of children over the summer brings .If the kids are all mixing and seeing their friends and cousins then we should know if the virus is lurking and ready to pounce
September is a long way away in the life of a pandemic .

History Queen · 14-06-2020 09:52AM

average_runner wrote: »

Fair enough.
From a parent I cant see it working for the kids.
My two will start their homework at 9 each day and be done by 1030. There is no point in the teacher doing anymore, as they dont want to.
They miss their school friends but are keeping their teachers for another year which is good.

The kids are playing on the road these days, sport with social distancing in july, but then matches in August.

So the best teachers can hope for is masks on the teachers and no social distancing. Putting masks on the kids will do more harm than good

As a teacher I can see between 150 and 250 students a day in my room for 40 mins at a time. I respectfully disagree that all we can hope for is masks. I want to see full cleaning procedures. My classroom gets bins emptied daily and hoovered every second day by school cleaners, I wipe down desks at the end of every day but I've only been doing the tops of the desks and with an "all purpose cleaner" i brought from home, I haven't been cleaning chairs/windows/doors etc. My classroom is a prefab so I (and my students) have no access to handwashing facilities when in my room.

I would like to see a hand sanatiser at the door to my room (cheaper than installing a sink), and strict protocols around symptomatic students and teachers. I fully accept that 2m social distancing is unworkable if we want students in school full time. I'll accept not having that, if we have other robust procedures in place. Such as strict protocols for dealing with symptomatic staff and students, better handwashing and toileting facilities, reduced movement in the corridor, massively increased cleaning regime both in classrooms and in the common school areas etc.

I'm not sure if it is possible to teach in a mask all day every day from a speaking and listening point of view, maybe those perspex shield things that you wear would work? Not sure if they're effective?

wirelessdude01 · 14-06-2020 10:25AM

See this is where teachers are just so pi$$ed off at the dept over Fridays statements. They should have outlined 3 or 4 different scenarios and have given a full breakdown of what funding, support and resources would be given for each scenario.

Instead Joe, who is brutal at public speaking mumbled his way through and left alot of people very confused. It appears it will be left to schools to sort locally. I can guarantee you that if it left to BOMs to decide if teachers can wear PPE then we won't be. This sort of stuff needs to be decided at a central level and not left to a voluntary board. Just so so frustrating for schools and those that work in them.

SusanC10 · 14-06-2020 10:34AM

jrosen wrote: »

I want school back as much as the next person. However if come September the advice for other sectors is still to social distance, still to have max people in a certain space then how can we expect teachers (or any sector for that matter) to work differently?
There needs to be a safe standard across the board.

This is how I feel about it.

Murple · 14-06-2020 10:43AM

average_runner wrote: »

A good few offices have opened up last week, all staff in, temp taken, hand cleaning kit and masks

Guarantee none of those offices had as many people sitting all day within an area as small as the typical classroom, with that office being one of perhaps 15 other offices within the same building, all similarly occupied with shared narrow corridors leading to a door to the outside.

iamwhoiam · 14-06-2020 10:50AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

See this is where teachers are just so pi$$ed off at the dept over Fridays statements. They should have outlined 3 or 4 different scenarios and have given a full breakdown of what funding, support and resources would be given for each scenario.

Instead Joe, who is brutal at public speaking mumbled his way through and left alot of people very confused. It appears it will be left to schools to sort locally. I can guarantee you that if it left to BOMs to decide if teachers can wear PPE then we won't be. This sort of stuff needs to be decided at a central level and not left to a voluntary board. Just so so frustrating for schools and those that work in them.

I agree with you . It should have been a well thought out and researched paper. "Worse case scenario we do this , If virus is under control we do that ."
Reassurance for parents , pupils and teachers that if the virus is well controlled that they will increase hygiene and hand washing and cleaning at very least .

Boggles · 14-06-2020 11:07AM

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Doctors, nurses, guards, fire fighters, air hostesses - hardly the only one?

Everyone of them have to wear PPE where social distancing is not possible.

Doctors and nurses are obvious, Fire stations have been split into 2 sites, both shift patterns kept together and apart, masks are mandatory when travelling.

Again they are all front line emergency staff, teachers are not emergency staff.

Air Hostess?

You won't get on a plane without a mask and that will be reinforced by air host wearing one, you'll also have your temperature checked at the airport apparently.

jrosen · 14-06-2020 11:11AM

Anyone in any sector who doesnt want to return to work shouldn't be paid their salary imo. But where this will become complicated is if all the health advise is pointing towards X guidelines and their work place has not implemented those policies then the argument will be their work place is not safe and therefore they can not return V will not return.
The government will walk themselves into an awful mess with employees.

I can see their being plenty of employees across all sectors both public and private who wont feel their work environments are safe and will refuse to go back.

Just to add we have had some feedback for our return, we wont be allowed use any shared space. Which means no access to the lunch room. Nowhere to sit and eat your lunch. We wont be allowed gather at any point with other staff.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 14-06-2020 11:13AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if it left to BOMs to decide if teachers can wear PPE then we won't be. This sort of stuff needs to be decided at a central level and not left to a voluntary board. Just so so frustrating for schools and those that work in them.

If you want to wear PPE then you wear PPE regardless of what DOE or BOM say. That goes for every single person in the country, don't wait for someone to give you a directive just make your own personal choice.

I'm sure there will be more tangible guidelines issued soon.

iamwhoiam · 14-06-2020 11:22AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/i-m-ready-to-crack-parents-on-three-months-of-remote-learning-1.4275426

An interesting read from the parents point of view

wirelessdude01 · 14-06-2020 11:27AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I'm sure there will be more tangible guidelines issued soon.

Friday was meant to be that day so that schools could start planning for the next school year.

Mrsmum · 14-06-2020 11:36AM

If all are back in school, come Sept, I think for secondary schools, rather that children moving from class to class, maybe the teachers should do the moving. Less traffic & spreading opportunities that way. When I was in school, not today or yesterday, that was the norm, not sure why it changed. Also teachers seem so worried they won't have PPE and/or sanitizing facilities. Am I naive in thinking it's a given it will be provided. After all. it is in no one's interests for teachers to be sick. We are all connected and an absent teacher knocks down lots of other dominos. Personally I'm not sure teaching behind a mask is workable though, maybe the shield things would work. Also think children should not be allowed into school without waving their own bottle of hand sanitizer on their way into school.
Another thing, imo, if blended learning is to be a thing from Sept onwards, then the curriculum had better be pared back. Better to get the fundamental core topics right than trying to speed on with the full coursework with most children, apart from the very bright, barely hanging on with little real understanding or totally slipping behind. This applies to Primary and Post Primary.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 14-06-2020 11:36AM

Some on here confusing not wanting to work with wanting the workplace to be as safe as is reasonably possible before returning.

Statements like "put them on the covid payment" aren't helpful. All education staff are asking for is the same care, that is observed in other workplaces, be observed in schools too.

Some solutions would be helpful.

How will 500-1200 students safely occupy the same building from 9-4?

How will handwashing be carried out given the paucity of WC facilities in most schools? Same for toilet breaks.

Will canteens operate at all or will kids bring packed lunch and remain in a pod and/or the same room for the day?

Do we dispense with PE for the year? Are school sports done for now?

What happens practical equipment after each use? Do we split practical groups and teach the same stuff 2/3 times?

Masks and temperature checks for all? Who will be responsible for it?

How do students safely enter school buildings? How do we manage buses?

Plenty to be teased out.

Leo's 'bespoke solution for schools' should worry anyone concerned with student/staff health as it currently seems to mean doing away with all guidelines observed in other areas of employment.

And before anyone else starts. Yes, I want to go back to school. Yes, the closure of schools is detrimental to student development but that doesn't mean you don't seek the best solution for all before returning and try to avoid unnecessary health risks.

Mrsmum · 14-06-2020 11:49AM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Some on here confusing not wanting to work with wanting the workplace to be as safe as is reasonably possible before returning.

Statements like "put them on the covid payment" aren't helpful. All education staff are asking for is the same care, that is in use in other workplaces, be observed in schools too.

Some solutions would be helpful.

How will 500-1200 students safely occupy the same building from 9-4?

How will handwashing be carried out given the paucity of WC facilities in most schools? Same for toilet breaks.

Will canteens operate at all or will kids bring packed lunch and remain in a pod and/or the same room for the day?

Do we dispense with PE for the year? Are school sports done for now?

What happens practical equipment after each use? Do we split practical groups and teach the same stuff 2/3 times?

Masks and temperature checks for all? Who will be responsible for it?

How do students enter buildings? How do we manage buses?

Plenty to be teased out.

Leo's 'bespoke solution for schools' should worry anyone concerned with student/staff health as it currently seems to mean doing away with all guidelines observed in other areas of employment.

And before anyone else starts. Yes, I want to go back to school. Yes, the closure of schools is detrimental to student development but that doesn't mean you don't seek the best solution for all before returning and try to avoid unnecessary health risks.

They are really great questions. I'm sure they are the questions in every teacher's head but fair play to you, this is the first time i've seen them listed clearly.

TheValeyard · 14-06-2020 12:12PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

If all are back in school, come Sept, I think for secondary schools, rather that children moving from class to class, maybe the teachers should do the moving. Less traffic & spreading opportunities that way. When I was in school, not today or yesterday, that was the norm, not sure why it changed. Also teachers seem so worried they won't have PPE and/or sanitizing facilities. Am I naive in thinking it's a given it will be provided. After all. it is in no one's interests for teachers to be sick. We are all connected and an absent teacher knocks down lots of other dominos. Personally I'm not sure teaching behind a mask is workable though, maybe the shield things would work. Also think children should not be allowed into school without waving their own bottle of hand sanitizer on their way into school.
Another thing, imo, if blended learning is to be a thing from Sept onwards, then the curriculum had better be pared back. Better to get the fundamental core topics right than trying to speed on with the full coursework with most children, apart from the very bright, barely hanging on with little real understanding or totally slipping behind. This applies to Primary and Post Primary.

Unfortunately many class rooms are specialised in second level and used for specific subjects. Also most groups by third year are broken into higher and ordinary classes for certain subjects, so very few students would spend a great deal of time with their base group. While senior level students are everywhere due to the options picked for their timetables.

screamer · 14-06-2020 01:11PM

SARS totally different to covid19, it never got out of the traps to spread worldwide....

Those thinking normal will ever be normal again until we have either a vaccine or cure for covid19 are absolutely living in cloud cuckoo land and would be the very ones who’d scream blue murder if their little Johnny came home from school with covid. We need to be sensible about this. A second wave will come have no doubt, our approach may be different but thinking schools can just go back full steam ahead is wishful thinking

Ger Roe · 14-06-2020 01:24PM

firemansam4 wrote: »

Not having a go at teachers in particular but this idea of there being a massive health risk to people from covid 19 is just not true IMO.

For the vast majority of people under 50 the risks of becoming seriously ill or dying from covid 19 are very low.

Now I get why we needed the lock down, we needed to protect the elderly and high risk groups by trying to slow down the spread of this disease.

When I go to work I don't worry that I could be putting my own life at risk from this disease, even though I know there is always that small risk. I worry more about catching it and spreading it to someone more vulnerable.

If you are under 50 and in good health and are worried about dying from covid 19 then you really should be more worried about stepping into your car and driving, as there is a higher risk of you being killed in an RTC.

What about if you are under 50 and in good health, but living with elderly relatives or other people with increased risks?. It's not as simple as assessing the level of risk and worry by a cut-off age.

Because of a failure to deal with the long running housing crisis, there are many people who themselves are low risk, but have to consider others that they are living with.

It's all fine to be aware that catching Covid is a risk that we have to accept and manage, but a considerable amount of people can not confine that risk to just themselves and their own good health or young age.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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