How will schools be able to go back in September?

History Queen · 13-06-2020 01:49PM

I'm accepting enough of not socially distancing in school once additional hygiene and cleaning protocols are adheared to.

Purple Mountain · 13-06-2020 01:51PM

Chicoso wrote: »

They have to go back en-masse full-time

You can't give kids half an education, would be pointless

It didn't work, in my child's case anyway, from March to June.
I'd be keeping him back a year if this blended learning goes ahead in September.

iamwhoiam · 13-06-2020 01:54PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Secondary schools teachers union already on News at 1 saying this won't work for them , why should they be put at risk, and slamming Minister for Education !! By September the rest of the country will have been back at work 3 months at least! Teachers are their own worst enemy and I understand the attitude a lot of people have about them.

Generalising obviously isn't good but people will have very little patience with teachers at this stage, kids off school since 12 March, Leaving Cert cancelled......... there needs to be a "can do" attitude from teachers, not this constantly throwing obstacles in the way.......

Between the optimist and the pessimist the difference is droll . The optimist sees the donut and the pessimist sees the hole . !!!
The pessimism among some teachers is unbelievable

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 13-06-2020 01:55PM

khalessi wrote: »

That doesnt make it right?

So are you saying it is ok that rules been broken in these places and health being put at risk as long as services are provided? You are ok with that?

It isnt right anywhere.

No but its the reality and people are just getting on with it. NPHET and the government will never advise against social distancing.

We'll eventually hear, wear a mask if you can't distance and it's OK to hug your granny etc etc but they won't ever say social distancing has ended.

It will come to an end naturally as is human nature. Virtually zero community transmission now so the risk by the time schools open will be negligible, even if it was possible to open schools with social distancing (which it won't be) it would be purely an optical exercise.

If teachers want to wear PPE and distance that's the schools call but the kids have been mixing for weeks already.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 01:56PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Secondary schools teachers union already on News at 1 saying this won't work for them , why should they be put at risk, and slamming Minister for Education !! By September the rest of the country will have been back at work 3 months at least! Teachers are their own worst enemy and I understand the attitude a lot of people have about them.

Generalising obviously isn't good but people will have very little patience with teachers at this stage, kids off school since 12 March, Leaving Cert cancelled......... there needs to be a "can do" attitude from teachers, not this constantly throwing obstacles in the way.......

I'm a teacher and want schools open in September but I also want safety measures put in place. I accept the reasons why social distancing is problematic but do want as safe an environment as possible for both my colleagues and students. A firm commitment to increased hygiene and cleaning protocols in school woukd satisfy me as well as clear guidance in what to do if a child or staff member presents with symptoms. This has not been provided and the union is acting correctly in demanding safe (within reason) working conditions for their members.

Edit: Teachers WANTED the Leaving Cert to take place. We did not cancel it.

khalessi · 13-06-2020 01:57PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

No but its the reality and people are just getting on with it. NPHET and the government will never advise against social distancing.

We'll eventually hear, wear a mask if you can't distance and it's OK to hug your granny etc etc but they won't ever say social distancing has ended.

It will come to an end naturally as is human nature. Virtually zero community transmission now so the risk by the time schools open will be negligible, even if it was possible to open schools with social distancing (which it won't be) it would be purely an optical exercise.

If teachers want to wear PPE and distance that's the schools call but the kids have been mixing for weeks already.

So you didnt answer whether you agree with bending the rules and putting peoples health at risk to get what you want. Do you think it is ok?

Those people are being bullied if they are working in an environment that only protects their rights on paper.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 13-06-2020 02:03PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Secondary schools teachers union already on News at 1 saying this won't work for them , why should they be put at risk, and slamming Minister for Education !! By September the rest of the country will have been back at work 3 months at least! Teachers are their own worst enemy and I understand the attitude a lot of people have about them.

Generalising obviously isn't good but people will have very little patience with teachers at this stage, kids off school since 12 March, Leaving Cert cancelled......... there needs to be a "can do" attitude from teachers, not this constantly throwing obstacles in the way.......

Of course they were, that seems to be the teacher unions usual rhetoric, create obstacles rather than getting on with things the way a lot of people have been doing throughout the whole thing.

I really think they need a bit of a wake up call and realise that there will be no public sympathy or support for industrial action under the circumstances. They will not be helping their members long term and won't be doing them any favours, if teachers are happy with being on strike pay long term well that's up to them.

Majority of teachers just want to get back to normal and they equally don't want the public backlash that the unions seem to want to line them up for.

thomasdylan · 13-06-2020 02:04PM

'No teacher will be required to do anything' was the quote from the ASTI a few months ago. It's just as well that other essential workers don't have the same attitude.

I feel sympathy for teachers over predicted grades. But their unions seem to have been more vocal than anyone else.

In the UK, schools stayed open with some teachers working for essential workers with no alternatives. Here, there were massive variations in the work being done and communication with students. One or two emails a week with no marking or other response is not enough. Criticising those teachers who do less than the minimum is not attacking the profession.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 13-06-2020 02:05PM

khalessi wrote: »

So you didnt answer whether you agree with bending the rules and putting peoples health at risk to get what you want. Do you think it is ok?

Those people are being bullied if they are working in an environment that only protects their rights on paper.

It's literally the first word of my post.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 02:09PM

Fringegirl wrote: »

Of course they were, that seems to be the teacher unions usual rhetoric, create obstacles rather than getting on with things the way a lot of people have been doing throughout the whole thing.

I really think they need a bit of a wake up call and realise that there will be no public sympathy or support for industrial action under the circumstances. They will not be helping their members long term and won't be doing them any favours, if teachers are happy with being on strike pay long term well that's up to them.

Majority of teachers just want to get back to normal and they equally don't want the public backlash that the unions seem to want to line them up for.

The purpose if a union is to protect its members. Teachers are entitled to a safeworking environment. Teachers don't get paid if they strike.

We want to work. We will work, but not without increased hygiene and cleaning protocols. This is not unreasonable. I struggle to see why people feel teachers and students should not have these basic things whenevery other facet of our society requires them? I accept social distancing won't work but other protocols could be implemented to increase the safety of all.

Cal4567 · 13-06-2020 02:18PM

Sounds like the minister has thrown this out there late on a Friday, and will take the weekend to garner views from both parents and teachers. He's probably hoping by September things will be a lot better and opinions will have changed.

I wouldn't be at all surprised now to find some government friendly opinion pieces in the media supporting this line. A long way to go too until September. Increasing reductions in numbers, we may even have weeks and weeks of no new cases by then (big question mark). If that's the case, there may be a lot more confidence supporting the minister's stance. Then again, we might still have very understandable concerns about a second wave.

firemansam4 · 13-06-2020 02:27PM

History Queen wrote:

The purpose if a union is to protect its members. Teachers are entitled to a safeworking environment. Teachers don't get paid if they strike.

We want to work. We will work, but not without increased hygiene and cleaning protocols. This is not unreasonable. I struggle to see why people feel teachers and students should not have these basic things whenevery other facet of our society requires them? I accept social distancing won't work but other protocols could be implemented to increase the safety of all.

Not having a go at teachers in particular but this idea of there being a massive health risk to people from covid 19 is just not true IMO.

For the vast majority of people under 50 the risks of becoming seriously ill or dying from covid 19 are very low.

Now I get why we needed the lock down, we needed to protect the elderly and high risk groups by trying to slow down the spread of this disease.

When I go to work I don't worry that I could be putting my own life at risk from this disease, even though I know there is always that small risk. I worry more about catching it and spreading it to someone more vulnerable.

If you are under 50 and in good health and are worried about dying from covid 19 then you really should be more worried about stepping into your car and driving, as there is a higher risk of you being killed in an RTC.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 02:33PM

firemansam4 wrote: »

Not having a go at teachers in particular but this idea of there being a massive health risk to people from covid 19 is just not true IMO.

For the vast majority of people under 50 the risks of becoming seriously ill or dying from covid 19 are very low.

Now I get why we needed the lock down, we needed to protect the elderly and high risk groups by trying to slow down the spread of this disease.

When I go to work I don't worry that I could be putting my own life at risk from this disease, even though I know there is always that small risk. I worry more about catching it and spreading it to someone more vulnerable.

If you are under 50 and in good health and are worried about dying from covid 19 then you really should be more worried about stepping into your car and driving, as there is a higher risk of you being killed in an RTC.

But not everyone is in good health or under 50. As well as that it is hard to understand the mixed messages when you see the types of hoops other workplaces have to jump through to ensure safety of staff (and customers) but schools are somehow deemed the exception.

I'm not hugely fearful for my own health, but I cannot get my head around the conflicting advice.

The Department of Education have long been found wanting so my hope at the moment is that the virus dies off to the extent that schools will indeed be safe to open without extra health and safety protocols in August, because come hell or high water that is what the Dept are pushing for.

firemansam4 · 13-06-2020 03:00PM

I think anyone in at risk groups will need protections and may need to be kept away from schools unfortunately for there own safety.

Many places of work are still at risk even though they may seem to have had to make many precautions.
I've seen so many times shops with plastic barriers at the counters and customers just going to the side of them to make transactions.
In my own place of work we have barriers up, signs everywhere but I still see many people not social distancing properly every day, as much as I try to do it myself.

I also think that the government are caught between a rock and a hard place because the situation is changing every week, and they are also still learning every day from experiences in Europe. If they give fixed guidelines now they may have to completely revise them come September and then will be heavily criticised for doing that.

History Queen · 13-06-2020 03:07PM

firemansam4 wrote: »

I think anyone in at risk groups will need protections and may need to be kept away from schools unfortunately for there own safety.

Many places of work are still at risk even though they may seem to have had to make many precautions.
I've seen so many times shops with plastic barriers at the counters and customers just going to the side of them to make transactions.
In my own place of work we have barriers up, signs everywhere but I still see many people not social distancing properly every day, as much as I try to do it myself.

I also think that the government are caught between a rock and a hard place because the situation is changing every week, and they are also still learning every day from experiences in Europe. If they give fixed guidelines now they may have to completely revise them come September and then will be heavily criticised for doing that.

Completely accept all of what you said here, however, I don't think a firm commitment to an increased budget for cleaning and hygiene supplies is asking for too much. I accept that not all guidelines can beissued now but if they're not issued soon schools will be struggling to put them in place. July provision should be starting soon (I won't go down the rabbit hole of the issues withthat particular announcement) and schools reopening fully in 10 or so weeks, if guidelines aren't issued soon it'll be too late.

PhilOssophy · 13-06-2020 03:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Covid is gone from the community and has been for weeks now. In time we will look back and see this period of lockdown as a huge over-reaction.

Will we? Seeing what happened in Italy/Spain? Maybe some measures were a bit OTT (I agree with you on Leaving Cert, stupid call to cancel it) but NPHET and the whole world knew nothing about this virus.

It was better to be cautious and be looking back saying "we over-reacted" than be looking back like Italy with regrets about what they did.

Mrsmum · 13-06-2020 03:15PM

History Queen wrote: »

But not everyone is in good health or under 50. As well as that it is hard to understand the mixed messages when you see the types of hoops other workplaces have to jump through to ensure safety of staff (and customers) but schools are somehow deemed the exception.

I'm not hugely fearful for my own health, but I cannot get my head around the conflicting advice.

The Department of Education have long been found wanting so my hope at the moment is that the virus dies off to the extent that schools will indeed be safe to open without extra health and safety protocols in August, because come hell or high water that is what the Dept are pushing for.

In a way it is the mixed messages, imo, that will allow schools to reopen and that are your greatest safeguard of all. It may be that there is a limit to what can be done inside schools but by the community outside of schools keeping themselves safe, that will also keep the schools safe. The virus can't get into the school if it isn't in the community. Don't knock the mixed messages, I say. Otherwise we just go with keeping the schools closed.

downthemiddle · 13-06-2020 03:55PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

No but its the reality and people are just getting on with it. NPHET and the government will never advise against social distancing.

We'll eventually hear, wear a mask if you can't distance and it's OK to hug your granny etc etc but they won't ever say social distancing has ended.

It will come to an end naturally as is human nature. Virtually zero community transmission now so the risk by the time schools open will be negligible, even if it was possible to open schools with social distancing (which it won't be) it would be purely an optical exercise.

If teachers want to wear PPE and distance that's the schools call but the kids have been mixing for weeks already.

The message you are promoting is extremely dangerous. The reason transmission and risk is virtually negligible is because the majority followed protocols. If we all took the attitude that others are ignoring guidelines so I shouldn’t follow them either then we would be in a very different place now. Personal responsibility is a key element to a functioning society.
You are advocating that our educators deliver a message to our young people that rules don’t matter. You should reflect on where that will lead us as a society if we go down that road.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 13-06-2020 04:12PM

downthemiddle wrote: »

The message you are promoting is extremely dangerous. The reason transmission and risk is virtually negligible is because the majority followed protocols. If we all took the attitude that others are ignoring guidelines so I shouldn’t follow them either then we would be in a very different place now. Personal responsibility is a key element to a functioning society.
You are advocating that our educators deliver a message to our young people that rules don’t matter. You should reflect on where that will lead us as a society if we go down that road.

Promoting and advocating??? No really I'm just telling how it is in reality, I'm not saying don't follow the rules I'm stating my own observations and experiences.

Social distancing is not something humans can adhere to long term, it goes against our natural behaviours and its just human nature.

Educators won't have to break social distancing rules because there won't be any rules around that. Closely watch the narrative in the media because they are drip fed exactly what the government wants you to hear.

annoyedgal · 13-06-2020 04:21PM

I feel really torn by yesterday's announcement. As a parent I'm delighted as I have a boy starting this year and he will hopefully get a shot at a 'normal ' school experience. I completely understand the reaction of parents on here to be delighted and want to get their children back to normailty.
As a teacher I'm concerned. I agree with limiting social distancing between children, but staff need to be afforded the same protections as other workers in different fields. Proper ppe and proper social distancing. Anything less and unions will quite rightly kick up a stink and a large number of teachers who are vulnerable will be out on health and safety leave.
I would also be concerned for children who are vulnerable and hope that something will be in place to protect them.
It's an impossible situation, i agree with Mc Hugh that a half back approach is not acceptable but a full return should not compromise staff members and vulnerable children.
The lack of support thus far and clarity from the department has been shocking. We have been literally left in a void of information about how to plan for September. It is just as unclear after yesterday's 'roadmap'.

marilynrr · 13-06-2020 05:07PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Actually, I was only thinking about this the other day.

With the level of strict cleaning, hand sanitising etc our immune systems will be in for quite an awakening once things revert to normal after months and months of not a germ in sight.

I'm bracing myself anyway

There's also going to be a lot of panic when kids start getting sick!

downthemiddle wrote: »

The message you are promoting is extremely dangerous. The reason transmission and risk is virtually negligible is because the majority followed protocols. If we all took the attitude that others are ignoring guidelines so I shouldn’t follow them either then we would be in a very different place now. Personal responsibility is a key element to a functioning society.
You are advocating that our educators deliver a message to our young people that rules don’t matter. You should reflect on where that will lead us as a society if we go down that road.

We were told that the lockdown was to flatten the curve. Everyone did their bit and followed the rules. It's not a functioning society if kids can't go to school.

Sometimes rules need to be broken. There are almost certainly rules that need to be challenged or certain scenarios where they shouldn't apply or where it's not possible to apply them!
Maybe you should reflect on what kind of society we would have if the rules could never be discussed, debated or challenged!

I read a while ago in the UK a local council had to tell people not to walk on a busy road if they happened to meet people on the path. They actually had to tell them it's safer to pass someone (even if they couldn't ensure a 2 meter distance from them) than to step onto a busy road where they could have been killed instantly!

Blind rule following isn't what we should be aiming for as a society. We also need common sense, on a personal level and in society.

firemansam4 · 13-06-2020 05:11PM

History Queen wrote:

Completely accept all of what you said here, however, I don't think a firm commitment to an increased budget for cleaning and hygiene supplies is asking for too much. I accept that not all guidelines can beissued now but if they're not issued soon schools will be struggling to put them in place. July provision should be starting soon (I won't go down the rabbit hole of the issues withthat particular announcement) and schools reopening fully in 10 or so weeks, if guidelines aren't issued soon it'll be too late.

Yes committing extra resources for hand hygiene ect should be a no brainer.

I can understand there must be frustration from teachers not having proper guidelines to prepare for, I just think that it's such an ever changing situation that guidelines will probably end up changing by the time September comes.

timmy_mallet · 13-06-2020 05:49PM

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

I believe children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way

Heal the worrlllllddd, make it a better place, for you and for me and the entire human race...

Emmersonn · 13-06-2020 06:01PM

With more and more people booking holidays abroad for late July and August I cannot see any reason why all the children cannot return to school in September

youandme13 · 13-06-2020 06:09PM

firemansam4 wrote: »

Not having a go at teachers in particular but this idea of there being a massive health risk to people from covid 19 is just not true IMO.

For the vast majority of people under 50 the risks of becoming seriously ill or dying from covid 19 are very low.

Now I get why we needed the lock down, we needed to protect the elderly and high risk groups by trying to slow down the spread of this disease.

When I go to work I don't worry that I could be putting my own life at risk from this disease, even though I know there is always that small risk. I worry more about catching it and spreading it to someone more vulnerable.

If you are under 50 and in good health and are worried about dying from covid 19 then you really should be more worried about stepping into your car and driving, as there is a higher risk of you being killed in an RTC.

That is total BS!! I know of 5 / 6 people that have had it and of 4 that died.

Also all under 50 and no underlying health conditions.

Every employee has a right to go to work in a safe environment. Just because there teachers doesn't mean 'oh we dont need to follow these health guidelines.'

They have as much a right to a safe working place as any other employee.

Uncharted · 13-06-2020 06:11PM

Open up the entire country ffs.

School,businesses,cinemas, let the country get back moving again.
The worst is over,the virus is a known entity by now.

The effects of a heavy recession will claim many many more lives than Covid 19.

Recessions and their resulting effects on the economy claim lives from all age groups.
The ripple effect of a stagnant economy is devastating.

Healthcare, education , general well being,poverty traps,mental health consequences etc.

Covid 19 is an ageist entity.
Recessions are not.

Normality must resume.

iamwhoiam · 13-06-2020 06:16PM

youandme13 wrote: »

That is total BS!! I know of 5 / 6 people that have had it and of 4 that died.

Also all under 50 and no underlying health conditions.

Every employee has a right to go to work in a safe environment. Just because there teachers doesn't mean 'oh we dont need to follow these health guidelines.'

They have as much a right to a safe working place as any other employee.

It is rare to die from Covid and even rarer to die aged under 50 and rarer still with no underlying conditions . Yet you know 4 ?
It seems very unusual .

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 13-06-2020 06:22PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It is rare to die from Covid and even rarer to die aged under 50 and rarer still with no underlying conditions . Yet you know 4 ?
It seems very strange

Yes I would imagine that's quite unusual. Myself I only know one person that tested positive, late 70s and absolutely fine with it thankfully. I do know several people who have tested positive for antibodies in the past week and they never even realised they had been infected at any point.

Worldwide statistics show its a particularly mild illness for 98% of people who are infected.

iamwhoiam · 13-06-2020 06:25PM

Fringegirl wrote: »

Yes I would imagine that's quite unusual. Myself I only know one person that tested positive, late 70s and absolutely fine with it thankfully. I do know several people who have tested positive for antibodies in the past week and they never even realised they had been infected at any point.

Worldwide statistics show its a particularly mild illness for 98% of people who are infected.

I know two who had it , both nurses , and both had a few days of being tired and a very slight cough .

firemansam4 · 13-06-2020 06:28PM

youandme13 wrote: »

That is total BS!! I know of 5 / 6 people that have had it and of 4 that died.

Also all under 50 and no underlying health conditions.

Every employee has a right to go to work in a safe environment. Just because there teachers doesn't mean 'oh we dont need to follow these health guidelines.'

They have as much a right to a safe working place as any other employee.

OK I couldn't find statistics for under 50's but did for 44 and under where there has been 17 lives lost in total, now that could be with or without underlying conditions.

Now every life lost is one too many but the numbers for this age profile are very low in comparison.

I'm sorry about your situation but what I posted was correct and the statistics back it up

Link here: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcases/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=COVID-19%20Insights%20Volume1%20WE%2015May2020

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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