Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings

ninebeanrows · 11-06-2020 01:51PM

crossman47 wrote: »

Not so sure. Drink is often the trigger for violence.

They haven't stopped drinking in the lockdown...

Ginger n Lemon · 11-06-2020 01:51PM

Going at full speed come next month

The EU has announced plans to ease a ban on non-essential travel to the continent, with foreign students, non-EU nationals who normally live in Europe and certain highly skilled workers likely to be exempt from the coronavirus restrictions from July 1.

“While we will all have to remain careful, the time has come to make concrete preparations for lifting restrictions with countries whose health situation is similar to the EU’s and for resuming visa operations,” said EU home affairs commissioner Ylva Johansson.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/eu-to-ease-coronavirus-travel-bans-from-july-1-1004665.html

Ginger n Lemon · 11-06-2020 01:53PM

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

They haven't stopped drinking in the lockdown...

Damn

:D:D:D:D

Seriously this thread has produced some of the most iconic posts ever.

HSE fighting off hairdressers for PPE was pretty epic

the kelt · 11-06-2020 01:53PM

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

If the pubs can reopen it will at least relieve some pressure from the household having 'the problem person' out of the house for a large portion of the day.

Not so sure, they always come back but i see your point about them not being in the house all the time.

showpony1 · 11-06-2020 01:56PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Going at full speed come next month

The EU has announced plans to ease a ban on non-essential travel to the continent, with foreign students, non-EU nationals who normally live in Europe and certain highly skilled workers likely to be exempt from the coronavirus restrictions from July 1.

“While we will all have to remain careful, the time has come to make concrete preparations for lifting restrictions with countries whose health situation is similar to the EU’s and for resuming visa operations,” said EU home affairs commissioner Ylva Johansson.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/eu-to-ease-coronavirus-travel-bans-from-july-1-1004665.html

when will we be able to go to Spain etc without quarantine upon arrival back in Ireland? i keep reading everywhere is open in july - but reality no one really going holidays to Spain/Italy then?

Cork Boy 53 · 11-06-2020 02:01PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Going at full speed come next month

The EU has announced plans to ease a ban on non-essential travel to the continent, with foreign students, non-EU nationals who normally live in Europe and certain highly skilled workers likely to be exempt from the coronavirus restrictions from July 1.

“While we will all have to remain careful, the time has come to make concrete preparations for lifting restrictions with countries whose health situation is similar to the EU’s and for resuming visa operations,” said EU home affairs commissioner Ylva Johansson.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/eu-to-ease-coronavirus-travel-bans-from-july-1-1004665.html

So I take it you are still advocating that all restrictions be lifted immediately. Correct?

average_runner · 11-06-2020 02:07PM

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

If the pubs can reopen it will at least relieve some pressure from the household having 'the problem person' out of the house for a large portion of the day.

And then they can go home drunk and cause more troubles for the families.

Domestic violence isn't because of lockdown, it was there before hand and will always continue. How much is related to alcohol is the real question.

Seen it many times

Penfailed · 11-06-2020 02:07PM

growleaves wrote: »

Historically we didn't have lockdowns. It's this novel containment strategy which has tanked the economy.

...which was in response to a novel virus.

growleaves · 11-06-2020 02:18PM

Penfailed wrote: »

...which was in response to a novel virus.

Yes but novel viruses have appeared regularly throughout history. It hasn't a case of reinventing the wheel each time that happens, until now.

Democratic countries imitating a Communist empire, embracing "containment measures" which nobody ever heard of before and which are dubious even on their own terms (the locked-down countries did not lead the world in "saving lives"), morally dubious and damaging economically, socially and in other respects is what marks this episode out as one for the history books.

is_that_so · 11-06-2020 02:22PM

growleaves wrote: »

Yes but novel viruses have appeared regularly throughout history. It hasn't a case of reinventing the wheel each time that happens, until now.

Democratic countries imitating a Communist empire, embracing "containment measures" which nobody ever heard of before and which are dubious even on their own terms (the locked-down countries did not lead the world in "saving lives"), morally dubious and damaging economically, socially and in other respects is what marks this episode out as one for the history books.

They also killed a whole lot more people and all they had as a tool was to wait it out till herd immunity or the virus disappeared. This one has been threatened for decades and it is over 100 years since something similar. Is it really so "morally dubious" to try to avoid more people dying?

growleaves · 11-06-2020 02:30PM

is_that_so wrote: »

They also killed a whole lot more people and all they had as a tool was to wait it out till herd immunity or the virus disappeared. This one has been threatened for decades and it is over 100 years since something similar.

As has been said on here a million times, it has not been over 100 years since something similar. The comparison with the Spanish Flu (death tolls 50-100 million), and the total glossing over of all the pandemics of the 20th century, is hype. You're also claiming that the disease containment measures used throughout history were "wait it out". Not true.

"This one has been threatened for decades" If that's true its an indictment of the EU response since we would have had plenty of time to study countries which learned from their experiences with SARS and managed to come up with a strategy which was both effective and avoided causing harm. Our strategy was semi-effective and harmful, at best.

growleaves · 11-06-2020 02:34PM

Is it really so "morally dubious" to try to avoid more people dying?

How long is a piece of string?

It depends on what you do. The moral thing is to come up with a way of saving lives that doesn't involve causing massive harm. And not listening to people who say that isn't possible.

Given that we're measuring our actions against unverifiable projections we're into extremely dodgy territory. We have no way of really knowing if we saved lives and how many. (I know some people think they know, and think that the 'insta-science!' of correlations aligning with their assumptions is all the proof they need.)

Breezin · 11-06-2020 02:39PM

growleaves wrote: »

How long is a piece of string?

It depends on what you do. The moral thing is to come up with a way of saving lives that doesn't involve causing massive harm. And not listening to people who say that isn't possible.

Given that we're measuring our actions against unverifiable projections we're into extremely dodgy territory. We have no way of really knowing if we saved lives and how many. (I know some people think they know, and think that the 'insta-science!' of correlations aligning with their assumptions is all the proof they need.)

Insta-science. I like it!

Or science-u-like, aka 'the science'.

average_runner · 11-06-2020 03:11PM

growleaves wrote: »

Yes but novel viruses have appeared regularly throughout history. It hasn't a case of reinventing the wheel each time that happens, until now.

Democratic countries imitating a Communist empire, embracing "containment measures" which nobody ever heard of before and which are dubious even on their own terms (the locked-down countries did not lead the world in "saving lives"), morally dubious and damaging economically, socially and in other respects is what marks this episode out as one for the history books.

Your blaming the lockdown for the economy?
Sweden economy is in crisis and it didn't have a lockdown

growleaves · 11-06-2020 03:32PM

Your blaming the lockdown for the economy?
Sweden economy is in crisis and it didn't have a lockdown

Yes I am. 'Lockdown' is just piece of terminology. We could have called it 'the Embargo'.

Sweden's economy is in crisis because a fifth to a quarter of the world locked down trade for 2+ months.

Goldengirl · 11-06-2020 03:36PM

Jackman25 wrote: »

Your just trying to take offence where there is none. Nowhere does he/she say that those deaths are not important.

You asked for example,.plenty of examples , from him and others .
If you choose to ignore it or thank the poster that's your prerogative.
I think saying that patients who die of Covid 19 are End of Life is making a statement which I and others find offensive .

Penfailed · 11-06-2020 03:37PM

growleaves wrote: »

Sweden's economy is in crisis because a fifth to a quarter of the world locked down trade for 2+ months.

As I have pointed out before - lockdown or not, our economy was going to take a hit as it's a global issue.

Jackman25 · 11-06-2020 03:39PM

Goldengirl wrote: »

You asked for example,.plenty of examples , from him and others .
If you choose to ignore it or thank the poster that's your prerogative.
I think saying that patients who die of Covid 19 are End of Life is making a statement which I and others find offensive .

Explain to me how or why it offends you exactly?
Its almost certainly true in some cases.

Goldengirl · 11-06-2020 03:42PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

But science should be evidence based, what evidence is there for the continuation of restrictions until late July? There are numerous countries into their fifth week of having reopened, including schools/restaurants/bars/hairdressers/etc, and show no signs of a resurgence in cases. They have new cases every day (which is totally normal and nothing to fret over) but are continuing to lift restrictions further. It's a bit hard to take all these experts here seriously when they ignore the real life experiments happening in front of them in favour of an alternative approach for which there is no supporting evidence.

Well I think the fact that such a diverse group of educated and qualified people want to have input into the country's course in this, should be encouraged , not trashed.
That was my point if you read the post .
Hypocrisy here from people on one hand stating that Tony and the gang are not qualified to make decisions and should listen to others , but when other experts give their opinions they are not acceptable either?

road_high · 11-06-2020 03:49PM

average_runner wrote: »

Feck if you want to do my job for 350 a week, off you go. I sit back and take 350 for something easier.

So then we are not “all in it together”. Thanks for proving my point

Goldengirl · 11-06-2020 03:50PM

the kelt wrote: »

Please, you're seeing stuff thats not there about a poster saying the lives of end of life patients isnt important and playing the virtue card yet on the same thread thanked a poster who said the following about a 60 year old man "The only solace is that he looks like absolute sh!t so I'd say he doesn't have much more in him"

Well no virtue in that comment , you are looking for something to say .
I agree that Ivan Yates is an ignorant buffoon.
No End of Life similarity there, just end of story .

Flickerfusion · 11-06-2020 03:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Add in to this the fact that there is going to be a major contraction on supply chains and Ireland is in a better position than almost any country to capitalise on this

Some of it perhaps, but there are other areas where we could be exposed.

A lot of the pharma, IT and finance sector here will be relatively less impacted compared to consumer-centric businesses like car manufacturing. There are a few at risk e.g. Apple is essentially a consumer products company, albeit it quite high end one.

Some businesses could well see increased demand e.g. companies selling internet and cloud computing infrastructure and software, something we have quite a bit of and demand for pharmaceuticals and biopharmaceuticals isn't going to shrink.

Financial services are also relatively safe as that activity will keep going on.

Where we have bigger risks could be where we've services and food businesses that are selling to UK consumers. There's a pretty sharp recession forecast in Britain and there are complicating factors because of Brexit.

We also generally need to keep an eye on the ball on Brexit here too as that could yet turn into a total mess and there's utter dogma driving it in Britain without much logic or pragmatism.

The other risk is the US going into a deep recession, although I suspect that's somehow less likely, despite the coronavirus impact being very severe there.

We need to do something about the impact of UK companies going into administration and just shuttering Irish branches though. We've already lost Debbenhams Ireland, Monsoon, Accessorize and I doubt they're going to be the only casualties.

What's happening there is even though the Irish branches are entirely viable, the parents falling into administration is resulting in their being unable to supply funds to those subsidiaries to get them through the lockdown.

We should have had some kind of 0% interest loan scheme to buffer that. Instead, it's cost a hell of a lot of retail jobs and that could get worse before it gets better.

There's going to be a total disaster in British retail, regardless of what happens here economically, so I think we should be prepared for a very significant number of job losses across those kinds of stores and perhaps the state could try and work with getting new businesses back in there quickly. We can't hang around with a big retail wipe out going on.

My concern is landlords will rather sit on empty stores than drop rents and that could see a lag before you start getting companies coming in from Ireland or elsewhere in Europe etc to fill those gaps.

I mean who's going to take those huge ex Debenhams stores in Dublin and Cork etc? They can't really just be left sitting there, and as unexciting as they may have been, their loss is a big issue for footfall in shopping districts.

Goldengirl · 11-06-2020 03:53PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I fully agree with this. Unfortunately someone will be along any minute now to tell us that lockdown is the only reason 60K more didn't die...

People don't seem to be able to grasp that the majority of deaths are end of life patients with very serious medical issues.

Its not a bunch of 50 year olds with slightly high blood pressure dying.

And before anyone mentions it, yes it is sad that old people die. But they are going to die either way. Be it the serious illness they are suffering from, old age in general or some other complication such as FLU / infection.

That article that OP is talking about was taken down last night , because it is unsourced and untrue .

is_that_so · 11-06-2020 04:02PM

growleaves wrote: »

As has been said on here a million times, it has not been over 100 years since something similar. The comparison with the Spanish Flu (death tolls 50-100 million), and the total glossing over of all the pandemics of the 20th century, is hype. You're also claiming that the disease containment measures used throughout history were "wait it out". Not true.

"This one has been threatened for decades" If that's true its an indictment of the EU response since we would have had plenty of time to study countries which learned from their experiences with SARS and managed to come up with a strategy which was both effective and avoided causing harm. Our strategy was semi-effective and harmful, at best.

No, I pointed out we had limited tools, you just made this stuff up. I also did not restrict myself to 100 years. As for the rest well you can see two examples of the "damage" approaches caused - Sweden and everybody else. The net effect is economic downturn, the blind obsession you've had throughout this. SARS-1 burnt itself out and was very limited geographically so of little use.

SusieBlue · 11-06-2020 04:08PM

I think a lot of people forget that a large portion of the IT and finance industries work to support the retail and hospitality industries, and because of this they are not as air tight as you would think.

As my own MD said (IT industry) if our clients go down, we’ll go with them.

Ginger n Lemon · 11-06-2020 04:15PM

Jesus, some posters still foolish enough to say "economic damage lockdown or no lockdown".

Denmark's GDP contracting 5.4% is NOT THE SAME AS Ireland's GDP contracting 12.4%.

:rolleyes:

Goldengirl · 11-06-2020 04:15PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I love how we have started to rewrite history now. Apparently a major recession was inevitable anyways and lots of businesses were on the verge of crashing anyways.

Of course its not true at all is it? Our economy was booming at the start of the year. We were close to full employment.
We had money put aside to assist with a hard brexit.

I don't see any posters saying that here .
Nobody is happy to see job losses.
However ..
Some of the businesses that were quoted by OP were in trouble for a few years.
M&S , Next , Monsoon who were cutting back already.
Debenhams was in receivership for the last 12 months beforehand

Flickerfusion · 11-06-2020 04:19PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I think a lot of people forget that a large portion of the IT and finance industries work to support the retail and hospitality industries, and because of this they are not as air tight as you would think.

As my own MD said (IT industry) if our clients go down, we’ll go with them.

Different parts of the IT sector will be impacted differently.

I mean, if you take an MNC like AirBnB, the bottom has fallen out of their market entirely, while you've companies supplying say cloud computing or networking infrastructure are actually seeing an uptick in demand.

There are complex chains of services companies in supply chains. E.g. Ireland has a lot of people involved indirectly in aviation. I dread to think what the impact on some of the leasing operations here will be.

It's not going to be symmetric and unfortunately some areas will be hit much harder than others.

Also a lot of factors are beyond our control and will just be a case of riding out whatever waves hit from the global economy.

The things we do have control over we should be really focused on though. I just hope we're being strategic enough.

growleaves · 11-06-2020 04:22PM

is_that_so wrote: »

No, I pointed out we had limited tools, you just made this stuff up. I also did not restrict myself to 100 years. As for the rest well you can see two examples of the "damage" approaches caused - Sweden and everybody else. .

Deaths were nowhere near projections (running from 100,000s to millions) in un-locked-down countries like Sweden and Japan. Sweden's policy has left them worse off than neighbouring countries and a little better than some other EU countries for deaths. The comparison is a pretty thin vindication for lockdown, if that.

The net effect is economic downturn, the blind obsession you've had throughout this.

You must not have even been reading my posts if you think this. I've been posting about multiple side-effects of the lockdown - not merely economic - and making many different points about the wrongness of lockdown - legal, social, ethical, political, personal.

SARS-1 burnt itself out and was very limited geographically so of little use

The point is that countries like Taiwan, Singapore, Japan etc. used their experience of phenomena such as SARS to shape containment measures that were effective and avoided harm. We can now do the same in the future, jettisoning lockdown (presumably declaring it a success, then quietly dropping it to save face) and coming up with a policy without cruelly adverse side-effects.

Penfailed · 11-06-2020 04:30PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Jesus, some posters still foolish enough to say "economic damage lockdown or no lockdown".

Denmark's GDP contracting 5.4% is NOT THE SAME AS Ireland's GDP contracting 12.4%.

:rolleyes:

Jesus. How to make a point that is besides the point. Nowhere has anyone said that, had we not locked down, that the economic damage would be less than if we had locked down. Either way though, OUR ECONOMY IS GOING TO SUFFER. That's irrespective of lockdown.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings