Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Grizzly 45 · 22-05-2020 1:10pm

Mellor wrote: »

I was referring to the section on rights, not the entire document. It

was written almost a century and a half later. It's hardly surprising that it's a more developed legal document. Certain sections are heavy on legalese. But the rights, are fairly plain english. Obviously the language on the US document is somewhat of its period. But I think you are overstating it's simplicity. Some sections are straight forward, other less so.

Oh dear! It was originally drafted in 1787 ratified in 1791.The safegaurds to liberty Articles 1to10 were all ratified in 1791.15 years after the war of independence. Before that there were the articles of confederation from 1776 to 1787 which were the preambles and test runs of the constitution as we know it today.So hardly 150 years later.It's been amended 27 times since then so maybe thats where you are getting that idea from

And you are grossly exaggerated the difference in length. "2 vrs 214 pages" is not accurate. The US document is c.7,500 words. The Irish Document is 16,000 words. Yes, its longer, not 100 times longer.

As I am talking about the actual document size of the first ten individual libeerty rights.
That is physically TWO pages of a FOUR page manuscript. You can physically visit and read it in Washington DC in the National Archives[Well worth a visit too] The current constitution is over 7,500 words in its current format .In its orginal format it is 4,500 words.The SHORTEST ever written constitution in history.

The Irish constitution if you have a copy,is currently in its physical size 214 pages inc the index.

Who claimed the the systems of government were the same?
The Irish President is not remotely Analogous to the POTUS.

No one said they were the same,they were haevily influenced...when the Irish constitution was drafted it was heavily influenced by the US system of Govt and post the 1937 meddling by Dev,and the church of Rome,it was neuterd into this mess we have.
Here are the differences;
IR
Cabinet appointed by the president with previous nomination by the prime minister and approval of the lower house of Parliament Cabinet appointed by the president with Senate approval
US
Cabinet appointed by the president with Senate approval

IRL
Executive branch Chief of state President
US
President and Vice President
The original drafts had the Irish govt working on the triple lock of laws being ratified by by both houses and the president,who would have had veto powers as well.

I'm not sure what the logic was behind President and Taoiseach. But seems more Westminister than Washington.

In its original concept it was President and VP

Mellor · 23-05-2020 11:22am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh dear! It was originally drafted in 1787 ratified in 1791.The safegaurds to liberty Articles 1to10 were all ratified in 1791.15 years after the war of independence. Before that there were the articles of confederation from 1776 to 1787 which were the preambles and test runs of the constitution as we know it today.So hardly 150 years later.It's been amended 27 times since then so maybe thats where you are getting that idea from

Yep, and the Irish constitution was 1937. Which was 146 years later from 1791 ratification of the US constitution. 150 years from drafting.
So a century and a half is accurate. Not sure what you are getting at tbh.

As I am talking about the actual document size of the first ten individual libeerty rights.
That is physically TWO pages of a FOUR page manuscript. You can physically visit and read it in Washington DC in the National Archives[Well worth a visit too] The current constitution is over 7,500 words in its current format .In its orginal format it is 4,500 words.The SHORTEST ever written constitution in history.

The Irish constitution if you have a copy,is currently in its physical size 214 pages inc the index.

The US document is written on large manuscript sheets. Comparing to pages is disingenuous at best. As above it's on 4 sheets, not 2 as originally suggested. The Irish "pages" are much smaller. So hardly like for like. Also not a fair to compare a section of one document in original format, to the current entire document.

I just think the "2 vrs 200 pages" idea is a little misleading.

Which is why I used the word count. Seems the fairest comparison.
7,500 vrs 16,000. And yes, that's the current docs.
You are correct that the "original" was 4500 words, but that count excludes the Bill of Rights. Technically a separate document, but given we were talking rights, it would be silly to exclude them.

And practically, given the context. The first 21 amendments to the US document were ratified by the time the Irish one was written. So that's the version that would have contributed to the irish one.

No one said they were the same,they were haevily influenced...

I get what you are saying, but the system of government is another discussion.

But aren't we saying the same thing? The US structure (constitution/government) heavily influence the Irish structure (constitution/government).

Circling back. The two documents contain rights structured in a similar way, with similar phrases that allow the governments wiggle room in regards to absolution.

Grizzly 45 · 23-05-2020 12:52pm

Mellor wrote: »

Yep, and the Irish constitution was 1937. Which was 146 years later from 1791 ratification of the US constitution. 150 years from drafting.
So a century and a half is accurate. Not sure what you are getting at tbh.

Ah..We have crossed wires here.I thought you meant that the US constitution was written and ratified over a 150 year period in the first ten articles.

The US document is written on large manuscript sheets. Comparing to pages is disingenuous at best. As above it's on 4 sheets, not 2 as originally suggested. The Irish "pages" are much smaller. So hardly like for like. Also not a fair to compare a section of one document in original format, to the current entire document.

Well seeing neither examples had std A4 Xerox pages in1789 or 1920,and the Irish one wasnt written in a school copy book,or the back of a fag packet either.In fact AFAIK it is also written on a largeish manuscript sheet as well,which seems to be a standard for such docs of importance...
Your point being?

I just think the "2 vrs 200 pages" idea is a little misleading.

"Pendantic" might be better a word?

Which is why I used the word count. Seems the fairest comparison.
7,500 vrs 16,000. And yes, that's the current docs.

Which would also suggest the FFs could draw up a much more simple and superior and clearer document with less words in the 1780s,than the Irish could in the 1920s!!!:D:D:

Y

I
But aren't we saying the same thing? The US structure (constitution/government) heavily influence the Irish structure (constitution/government).

More ot less,but ours does not function as the US system for the simple reason Dev neutered the office of president to that of a figurehead,and limited the Senad to being [1] An oligarchy [2] an expensive talking shop,with zero executive powers.,bar referring bills back to the Dail for legal clarification or constitutionally...We have seen how good they were at that job this March...:mad:
The original proposed constitution had this set up so the Irish govt would have functioned like the US,needing both a majority in both houses and presidential agreement to pass laws ,with veto powers being held by the president as well.

Circling back. The two documents contain rights structured in a similar way, with similar phrases that allow the governments wiggle room in regards to absolution

.

Open to opinion.Ours does not define clearly fundamental rightsand/ or puts serious limits on them.
US freedom of relligion,opinion and expression. Hence the reason militant anti US groups can yell "Death to the Capitalist USA" in the middle of NYC. While burning the American flag
Ireland
freedom of expression and religion,[but not if it "scandalises" Irish society.Hence many books,authors and films banned] Try being in the Irish leauge of Satan worshippers for Hitler,demanding outside the Aras "Death to the Hobbitt[and wife] while burning the EU and Tricolour.:)

Mellor · 23-05-2020 3:56pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well seeing neither examples had std A4 Xerox pages in1789 or 1920,and the Irish one wasnt written in a school copy book,or the back of a fag packet either.In fact AFAIK it is also written on a largeish manuscript sheet as well,which seems to be a standard for such docs of importance...
Your point being?

That 2 v 200 wasn't accurate. Word count, is more accurate.

If the original was on manuscript pages, there were not 200 of them.
200 is the current print version, in a large font, in dual languages. It you print it normally, it's about 30 pages.

Which would also suggest the FFs could draw up a much more simple and superior and clearer document with less words in the 1780s,than the Irish could in the 1920s!!!:D:D:

Open to opinion. But I wouldn't assume that less words is necessarily better or clearer.
The fact that there were 12 amendments proposed in 1791 to the original constitution, many of which were basic rights, suggests it was a far from complete. Where they the only omissions? I imagine black slaves at the time thought so.

Open to opinion.Ours does not define clearly fundamental rightsand/ or puts serious limits on them.
US freedom of relligion,opinion and expression. Hence the reason militant anti US groups can yell "Death to the Capitalist USA" in the middle of NYC. While burning the American flag
Ireland
freedom of expression and religion,[but not if it "scandalises" Irish society.Hence many books,authors and films banned] Try being in the Irish leauge of Satan worshippers for Hitler,demanding outside the Aras "Death to the Hobbitt[and wife] while burning the EU and Tricolour.:)

Article 40 defines fundamental rights. What do you mean by not clearly?

The guy burning the flag in NYC may be within his rights. I'm not sure if that's always better option though. A guy walking around NYC on sept 12 2001, waving an al-qaeda flag, could care less about his right to do that.

tudderone · 23-05-2020 8:54pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Open to opinion.Ours does not define clearly fundamental rightsand/ or puts serious limits on them.
US freedom of relligion,opinion and expression. Hence the reason militant anti US groups can yell "Death to the Capitalist USA" in the middle of NYC. While burning the American flag
Ireland
freedom of expression and religion,[but not if it "scandalises" Irish society.Hence many books,authors and films banned] Try being in the Irish leauge of Satan worshippers for Hitler,demanding outside the Aras "Death to the Hobbitt[and wife] while burning the EU and Tricolour.:)

Isn't there a "Hate speech" bill approaching here ? I remember eu lickspittle Mairead McGuinness mouthing out of her about having to protect peoples feelings in case some nasty person said something they shouldn't have, probably about FG being as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Mellor · 24-05-2020 6:50am

tudderone wrote: »

Isn't there a "Hate speech" bill approaching here ? I remember eu lickspittle Mairead McGuinness mouthing out of her about having to protect peoples feelings in case some nasty person said something they shouldn't have, probably about FG being as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Yeah, there was a consultation period last year, indication that the 1989 Incitment to Hate could be updated. It's a slippery slope. And some spoke out against it as similar laws have failed elsewhere.

Grizzly 45 · 24-05-2020 1:43pm

Ce plus la change! as the French say.
We got rid of the blasphemy laws of the old religion of Rome and replaced them with "hate speech" laws of the new church of political correctness.

Grizzly 45 · 26-05-2020 12:22pm

OK!!...Who is missing a very short Ruger 10/22 with silencer,and a rather nice telescoping stock??:p

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/man-50s-arrested-as-gardai-seize-firearm-and-drugs-in-meath-1001249.html

tudderone · 26-05-2020 4:41pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ce plus la change! as the French say.
We got rid of the blasphemy laws of the old religion of Rome and replaced them with "hate speech" laws of the new church of political correctness.

You know what George Carlin had to say about that ;

“Political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance. It presents itself as fairness, yet attempts to restrict and control people's language with strict codes and rigid rules. I'm not sure that's the way to fight discrimination. I'm not sure silencing people or forcing them to alter their speech is the best method for solving problems that go much deeper than speech.”

tudderone · 26-05-2020 4:44pm

I see it reported in the daily rags that Leo, our esteemed leader, has decided to live in a house in the Phoenix Park with some of his chums. What the deal if you want to live there, do you have to book or can you just rock up or what ?

tudderone · 04-06-2020 12:48am

The state of play in Canada, the gun org's there are taking the government to court over the ban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nedlZlVRn8o

Uinseann_16 · 04-06-2020 1:41am

Fair play to them, david vs goliath situation unfortunatly governments no longer respect the people and their basic liberties , Canadas been through some serious freedom of speech damaging laws in the past few years

Cass · 04-06-2020 10:28am

Anyone remember when the news would just tell you what happened and allowed you to make up your own mind? :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45 · 04-06-2020 12:24pm

tudderone · 04-06-2020 7:12pm

Cass wrote: »

Anyone remember when the news would just tell you what happened and allowed you to make up your own mind? :rolleyes:

Not in Ireland i don't. When i was young it was Priests, Bishops and Arch-Bishops, combined with Charlie or fg/ff tds telling the proles where they were going askew. Now its scruffy right-on lefties, screaming down anyone who disagrees with them and their vision of a socialist Utopia.

tudderone · 04-06-2020 7:16pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ever notice its not what they leave in the news, but what they leave out ? During the lockdown, crazy riots in France, but i seen no mention, same in Italy, suffering terribly with the lurgy, no help from the EU, not mention of the disaffection there. Very little mention of the black people killed in the USA defending their homes and businesses by antifa rioters, that wouldn't fit the "Narrative".

Grizzly 45 · 04-06-2020 8:16pm

tudderone wrote: »

Ever notice its not what they leave in the news, but what they leave out ? During the lockdown, crazy riots in France, but i seen no mention, same in Italy, suffering terribly with the lurgy, no help from the EU, not mention of the disaffection there. Very little mention of the black people killed in the USA defending their homes and businesses by antifa rioters, that wouldn't fit the "Narrative".

Or former police cheif 77 year old David Dorn,an African American who was working as security on a pawn shop in St Louis.:(

tudderone · 04-06-2020 9:38pm

The gun companies in the states are having a field day, first the corvid19 lurgy (bloody crows), then these riots, people getting tooled up.

Cass · 04-06-2020 9:46pm

Cass wrote: »

Been seeing a lot of people citing percentages and "stats" about America and it's confirmed cases and death rate. Maybe i'm missing something, and this actually has feck all to do with the "Orange One" but how can you compare America to Germany. Or America to Italy. As i posted elsewhere here are some stats. Perhaps someone can check my numbers.
Population of America is 328,000,000

Population of Germany, France, Spain and Italy is 257,000,000. So add the UK to that and it's 323,000,000 which is close to the population of America.

Confirmed cases in Germany, Spain, France, Italy and he UK as of today stands at 847,000.

Confirmed cases in America as of today stands at 667,000

Deaths in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, and the UK stand at 98,092.

Deaths in America as of today stand at 53,298

Then a video showed how well Ireland was doing compared to America. Well lets forget for a moment that we are arresting our own citizens for traveling 2.1km from their homes, but allowing the free movement of other EU nationals and people from Northern Ireland to travel freely and look at the size comparison between Ireland the states.

Texas, just the one state, is almost 9 times the size of the country of Ireland. So take this on a "per head capita" basis.
Infection rate in Ireland, per head capita, based on confirmed cases is 0.4% Death rate at 0.02%.

Infection rate in America, per head capita, and based on confirmed cases is 0.21% and death rate is 0.015%.

Both lower. Same applies to France, Italy, Spain, UK, etc. Individually their infection rate is higher, percentage wise, than America or on a par even though, again individually, their populations are a fifth that of America. Taken as all five countries together the infection rate among all five is 0.27% and death rate is 0.0.31%. So 20-odd% higher than America for infection rate and almost double for death rate.

So what am i missing?

I asked the above back in April.

Seen this today in the Times.

Mellor · 05-06-2020 12:32am

Cass wrote: »

I asked the above back in April.

Seen this today in the Times.

That just refer to the John Hopkins stats. Same as Worldometers. Not an actualy study. Same source we were using then, IT not the fastest I guess.

Bigger countries will always far better statistically as they have the buffer of states not affected thousands of miles away from major outbreaks. We've see that in the US, Australia, etc. Compare how bad New York has it to, Utah or Alaska.

Once a smaller country gets it, it's fully distributed quickly. The worst affected country, statistically, is San Marino. With nearly 20k deaths/1m pop. Of course that's only 42 people in the microstate.

tudderone · 05-06-2020 1:13am

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable" - Mark Twain.

Grizzly 45 · 05-06-2020 11:58am

Where was the riot when a white woman was shot by a black police officer in Minneapolis 3 years ago??? :mad: :rolleyes:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/australian-woman-killed-minneapolis-police-officer-didnt-die/story?id=48759868

yubabill · 05-06-2020 12:15pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Where was the riot when a white woman was shot by a black police officer in Minneapolis 3 years ago??? :mad: :rolleyes:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/australian-woman-killed-minneapolis-police-officer-didnt-die/story?id=48759868

On here, we're all studiously avoiding the subject so far.

We all know the virus is out the door as a news story and the BLM protests (agree with them or not) have made a mockery of the lockdown worldwide.

They're saying here today that they are going to significantly ease travel restrictions sooner than signalled, that's good IMHO but they couldn't realistically keep the travel restrictions what with Spain and Italy looking for tourists now and thousands gathering around the country here for protests - without social distancing.

Social distancing is the key to suppressing virus spread and the protests made a mockery of that, also.

Personally, I think the US agitators have failed to hijack the protests successfully. We all know the aims of antifa anarchists and I'll bet they believed the revolution had come. But the BLM pushback against them has broken their dreams.

We will have to wait 2 or 3 weeks to see how the protests have affected new cases and I'm hearing business owners get really agitated about this - they worry about being closed for longer.

And remember, it was middle-class people stealing from ALDI/LIDL in Italy.

BattleCorp · 05-06-2020 12:36pm

tudderone wrote: »

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable" - Mark Twain.

Ah statistics. The discipline that teaches us that the average person has one testicle.

Grizzly 45 · 05-06-2020 12:48pm

SIG /Sauer has gone bankrupt in Germany.

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/sports-and-law-enforcement-military-firearms-manufacturer-sig-sauer-is-bankrupt-production-in-germany-is-to-be-discontinued-the-eckernfoerde-plant-will-be-closed/?fbclid=IwAR136X8arQPlUEKok-WeEZdBMbi955lW8o9-fKqBOjxmhZrhLKLnxhYEw7c

Uinseann_16 · 05-06-2020 12:56pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

SIG /Sauer has gone bankrupt in Germany.

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/sports-and-law-enforcement-military-firearms-manufacturer-sig-sauer-is-bankrupt-production-in-germany-is-to-be-discontinued-the-eckernfoerde-plant-will-be-closed/?fbclid=IwAR136X8arQPlUEKok-WeEZdBMbi955lW8o9-fKqBOjxmhZrhLKLnxhYEw7c

Not surprising there has been a exodus of European manufacturers to the US why stay when you get treated like dirt
Sigs had some real commercial success over in the US with their MPX and MCX series and their range of pistols so why stay in germany?:pac:

tudderone · 05-06-2020 1:45pm

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Not surprising there has been a exodus of European manufacturers to the US why stay when you get treated like dirt
Sigs had some real commercial success over in the US with their MPX and MCX series and their range of pistols so why stay in germany?:pac:

And to the far east, but the recent pandemic has proven what folly it is to pack your manufacturing off to China, people have been saying it for decades, but the money men don't care, if they can make another whopping profit.

Really sad to hear of SIG going. During the celtic tiger madness, i was lucky enough to be able to buy an X5, in .40. It was perfectly engineered and finished, couldn't see a machining mark anywhere on it. A real premium product. Expensive, but you get what you pay for in this world.

Even Glock have a large plant in America, if you want to tender for military contracts, you have to manufacture there. The Americans also have an attitude that if something is not made there, don't buy it. They support their manufacturing, unlike the Irish which have become a race of usurers.

Uinseann_16 · 05-06-2020 4:20pm

tudderone wrote: »

And to the far east, but the recent pandemic has proven what folly it is to pack your manufacturing off to China, people have been saying it for decades, but the money men don't care, if they can make another whopping profit.

Really sad to hear of SIG going. During the celtic tiger madness, i was lucky enough to be able to buy an X5, in .40. It was perfectly engineered and finished, couldn't see a machining mark anywhere on it. A real premium product. Expensive, but you get what you pay for in this world.

Even Glock have a large plant in America, if you want to tender for military contracts, you have to manufacture there. The Americans also have an attitude that if something is not made there, don't buy it. They support their manufacturing, unlike the Irish which have become a race of usurers.

I meant firearms manufacturers:o, But yes theres lots of industry gone to the far east with many now moving from china to Vietnam or Malaysia etc
Alot of guns are being made in turkey now too they're making everything from shotguns to a plethora of roller locking guns MP5,G3 clones etc
ATA also started making a bolt action called the Turqua which has a guaranteed 1 moa

Cass · 06-06-2020 10:37am

Gather round children, its time for Leo's weekly

"GUESS. THE. MOVIE. QUOTE.", (audience applauds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sSLplLibC8

Grizzly 45 · 06-06-2020 12:27pm

A Churchill or a JFK for inspiring and original speeches he most certainly is not!

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

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