How will schools be able to go back in September?

I'd be okay with teachers getting paid more for working over the summer.

Primary teachers get paid X amount for working 36 weeks across the year. If they worked eight additional weeks over the summer, one additional week at Easter and one additional week at Christmas then they should get paid 27% of their annual salary (taxed accordingly of course) for the one year (or perhaps two years) we need to do this.

If the lockdown has taught me anything, it is how draining it is to teach children. I know people who have chosen it as a career might have more patience with it and therefore it might not be as much of a burden, but I'm teaching my own children - only two of them, not 26 of them - for 90 minutes a day. They are lucky they are both still breathing.

I do not begrudge teachers their summer/easter/Christmas break. I do agree that, temporarily, the school year should be extended to make up for lost time, and teachers should be compensated for working outside their contracted hours, just like any other worker would be.

This rubbish of "blended learning" come September is a nonsense for primary school children. I'm doing my best but they are essentially learning about 5-10% every day of what the would learn in school. Different for secondary school pupils, where you can do zoom classes. Those just don't work at a primary school level.

I am also slowly coming to realise that while my employer has been very flexible so far, the deadlines are starting to pile up. September - December is going to be full on workwise and I literally will not have the time to homeschool, especially if it is for three or four days a week. Same for my husband. So either my kids will fall behind, or someone will have to take an unpaid career break. And that someone will be me. Before I had kids, I moved to a job that fully paid maternity leave and provided flexible working hours, at a considerable pay cut. So it will be me taking the career break.

And that really p*sses me off, when all indications are that children are not good conduits of this disease. Fully open the schools, stagger the yard time, make them wash their hands three times a day, do PE outside whatever the weather, and have the schools be provided with extra funding to hire extra cleaners during the day.

By September playgrounds will be open, restaurants open, cinemas open and weddings taking place . If that all goes ahead then schools will have no need for heroics measure and 2m distancing . Like the poster above I would be all for hand washing , hygiene , PE outdoors , staggered start and finish etc .

JDD wrote: »

And that really p*sses me off, when all indications are that children are not good conduits of this disease. Fully open the schools, stagger the yard time, make them wash their hands three times a day, do PE outside whatever the weather, and have the schools be provided with extra funding to hire extra cleaners during the day.

You mean do pretty much exactly what schools were doing pre pandemic?

I imagine we will have to be slightly more nuanced than that.

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does anyone else think that the DoE is just hoping that things will be much better in Sept with no need for social distancing etc and that the schools can just then reopen as normal with extra emphasis on hygiene rather than trying to do it in June with lots of measures and social distancing?

Too much focus on September.

The more pertinent question is not how schools go back in September, it's how do we keep schools open from October to next March / April.

The worrying aspect and Doctor Tony has alluded to this many times is large swathes of people think the pandemic is over.

It isn't is the short answer.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

By September playgrounds will be open, restaurants open, cinemas open and weddings taking place . If that all goes ahead then schools will have no need for heroics measure and 2m distancing . Like the poster above I would be all for hand washing , hygiene , PE outdoors , staggered start and finish etc .

ALL of these will be subject to social distancing rules.

If its good to protect restaurant workers, cinema staff etc, why isn't it good to give teachers and principals the same protections?

Benimar wrote: »

ALL of these will be subject to social distancing rules.

If its good to protect restaurant workers, cinema staff etc, why isn't it good to give teachers and principals the same protections?

How, in all honestly, is social distancing going to be enforced at a playground?

If you have kids at a wedding, even adults after a certain hour, there will be very little social distancing going on.

Cinemas - fine. You can put the seats apart and they cater mostly to adults.

Restaurants - from what I've seen, the tables may be 2m apart but the people at the tables are all sitting closer together.

The fact that the 2m social distancing rule cannot be adhered to in all situations when all these places, including schools, open again is exactly why they are in the later phases of the roadmap. Schools should be no different.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I dont mean to be flippant and I know that seriousness of it but does anyone honestly think that if all goes according to plan that they will be 2m apart at weddings in late August ?

Whether they are or not, the social distancing rule will be in place (whatever length it is at that stage). Tables etc will have to be spread apart and hotels will have to at least be seen to try enforce SD.

Just because people individually decide to ignore advice doesn't mean businesses, schools etc can do it en masse.

JDD wrote: »

How, in all honestly, is social distancing going to be enforced at a playground?

If you have kids at a wedding, even adults after a certain hour, there will be very little social distancing going on.

Cinemas - fine. You can put the seats apart and they cater mostly to adults.

Restaurants - from what I've seen, the tables may be 2m apart but the people at the tables are all sitting closer together.

The fact that the 2m social distancing rule cannot be adhered to in all situations when all these places, including schools, open again is exactly why they are in the later phases of the roadmap. Schools should be no different.

I presume sd will be carried out the same way it is in the European schools that people keep holding up as examples of how to do things right. And whatever sd is in place in September will be what we follow.

Benimar wrote: »

I'll be interested to see what the guidelines to reopen schools are in 2 weeks when the Government publish them.

I really hope they are proper guidelines and not wishywashy good for social media bad for schools.

Benimar wrote: »

The problem is, the most dangerous places to reduce SD is indoors and in an environment where someone is speaking.

Its a lot safer to reduce the SD outdoors, but that won't solve the schools/work issue.

The other thing is, we are 11 days into Phase 1 and a lot of people think getting to Phase 5 on August 10th is a certainty. Hopefully we do get there, but it isn't guaranteed and, if there is a spike, the discussion on SD will change tone pretty quickly.

I'll be interested to see what the guidelines to reopen schools are in 2 weeks when the Government publish them.

I will be really interested if they base the guidelines on how the virus is behaving at the given time .Then September is 3 months away and we have no idea if it will even be a worry at all by then .

JDD wrote: »

...
And that really p*ssees me off, when all indications are that children are not good conduits of this disease. Fully open the schools, stagger the yard time, make them wash their hands three times a day, do PE outside whatever the weather, and have the schools be provided with extra funding to hire extra cleaners during the day.

That's certainly not true.

We seem to have gone from one extreme to another. First panicking that children might be 'superspreaders' then assuming they are almost invincible, without any solid grounds for either.

Two large studies have shown that ”children were as likely to be infected as adults"¹ and that transmission potential in schools and kindergartens should be evaluated using the same assumptions of infectivity as for adults"²

¹ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30287-5/fulltext
² https://zoonosen.charite.de/fileadmin/user_upload/microsites/m_cc05/virologie-ccm/dateien_upload/Weitere_Dateien/analysis-of-SARS-CoV-2-viral-load-by-patient-age.pdf

The second study (of over 3700 CoViD-19 positive patients) cautions ”The viral loads observed in the present study, combined with earlier findings of similar attack rate between children and adults, suggest that transmission potential in schools and kindergartens should be evaluated using the same assumptions of infectivity as for adults ... Based on the absence of any statistical evidence for a different viral load profile in children found in the present study, we have to caution against an unlimited re-opening of schools and kindergartens in the present situation, with a widely susceptible population and the necessity to keep transmission rates low via non-pharmaceutical interventions. Children may be as infectious as adults."

Other studies have shown crowded enclosed spaces pose the highest risk for viral transmittal. Unless the virus has been virtually eliminated, mitigating measures will need to be put in place when schools reopen. Assuming children (that spans preschool to leaving certificate) are wrapped in some sort of 'cloak of invincibility' is unfounded and foolhardy.

We will need to be hyper vigilant and have measures in place to reduce the possibility of viral transmission, detect positive cases quickly and respond to contain any potential new clusters as soon as a new case is detected.

Unless the virus is virtually eliminated, the containment measures necessary are likely to cause some disruption and discontinuity to running schools. We have to expect and plan for that.

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does anyone else think that the DoE is just hoping that things will be much better in Sept with no need for social distancing etc and that the schools can just then reopen as normal with extra emphasis on hygiene rather than trying to do it in June with lots of measures and social distancing?

I feel for the DoE here.

Schools want to know what the plan will be in September, they want to be able to plan so they know who is in which classes, which teachers are running them, what the timetables will be for PE, use of halls, etc etc etc. Parents want to know whether their kids have been accepted into a certain school, what teacher they will have, what days are half days, full days, early starts, term statr and finish, etc.

The DoE doesn't want to issue a very restrictive plan and then change it later on after schools have put in massive amounts of effort. They also don't want to issue a very light plan and then have to tighten it up later on.

They also don't want to issue a plan that seems very loose. If they recommended putting kids in "pods" of 25-30 without social distancing then it will suggest to people that their kids can abandon social distancing today.

So the DoE are not in an easy place, but you can already see they're testing the waters, pushing out data that kids are low risk. They're prepping parents and teachers to accept that schools are going to back full steam ahead with only the most effective and practical hygiene practices in place, and not full 2m social distancing, masks or isolation.

Benimar wrote: »

Whether they are or not, the social distancing rule will be in place (whatever length it is at that stage). Tables etc will have to be spread apart and hotels will have to at least be seen to try enforce SD.

Just because people individually decide to ignore advice doesn't mean businesses, schools etc can do it en masse.

Even businesses will have areas without social distancing. Workers will likely be scheduled onto fixed shifts and not mixed, to ensure that shofts aren't cross-contaminated. Workers on the same shift will be advised to distance if possible, but it will not be mandatory.

In France the protocol allows tables of 10 with no social distancing or masks. Patrons just have to wear masks when moving to and from their tables.

There are many environments where even 1m social distancing between everyone is not a practical reality. We're going to have to accept that and work around it.

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Wow, interesting how low the risk seems to be.

"At the time there were three confirmed cases of coronavirus involving three students, and a further three among adults in school settings.

The research found there was no confirmed transmission of the virus from these six cases to a total of 1,025 child and adult contacts in primary and secondary schools".

Risk of transmission is low if, as in the very limited study, positive cases and their close contacts are quarantined for up to two weeks as soon as a new case is identified.

"when a case was identified within a school, either all children and staff within the school or all children and staff involved with an individual case were excluded"

If anything it proves the effectiveness of rapid test, trace and quarantine. However even this would be highly disruptive unless the virus is first all but eliminated in the country.

On an individual level one could expect a higher incidence of school absences as a pupil or staff member may have to quarantine for two - three days every time they have potential CoViD-19 symptoms until they are tested and get results back. Given the asymptomatic rate and the pisibility of presymptomatic or asymptomatic transmission even this is no guarantee against seeding a cluster within a school.

If someone tests positive then we are looking at a potential temporary shutdown of the school for up to two weeks and longer if any secondary transmission is found.

Unless the virus is virtually eliminated then there is a distinct possibility of repeated disruption at either an individual level or school wide level.

Opening the schools is the easiest part, keeping them open will be far more difficult. It doesn't make much sense to reopen unless there is a realistic plan to reliably keep them open.

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I will be really interested if they base the guidelines on how the virus is behaving at the given time .Then September is 3 months away and we have no idea if it will even be a worry at all by then .

The virus will just blindly do what the virus does. Our behaviour is what matters when it comes to influencing the course of CoViD-19