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How will schools be able to go back in September?

shoppergal

Just wondering if anyone can give any insight into how schools could safely re-open in September?

Everyone I'm talking to is saying they won't be back until September but in my head I'm wondering how they'll re-open even in September? The virus will still be there with a vaccine still months away at that stage.

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JDD

I'd be okay with teachers getting paid more for working over the summer.

Primary teachers get paid X amount for working 36 weeks across the year. If they worked eight additional weeks over the summer, one additional week at Easter and one additional week at Christmas then they should get paid 27% of their annual salary (taxed accordingly of course) for the one year (or perhaps two years) we need to do this.

If the lockdown has taught me anything, it is how draining it is to teach children. I know people who have chosen it as a career might have more patience with it and therefore it might not be as much of a burden, but I'm teaching my own children - only two of them, not 26 of them - for 90 minutes a day. They are lucky they are both still breathing.

I do not begrudge teachers their summer/easter/Christmas break. I do agree that, temporarily, the school year should be extended to make up for lost time, and teachers should be compensated for working outside their contracted hours, just like any other worker would be.

This rubbish of "blended learning" come September is a nonsense for primary school children. I'm doing my best but they are essentially learning about 5-10% every day of what the would learn in school. Different for secondary school pupils, where you can do zoom classes. Those just don't work at a primary school level.

I am also slowly coming to realise that while my employer has been very flexible so far, the deadlines are starting to pile up. September - December is going to be full on workwise and I literally will not have the time to homeschool, especially if it is for three or four days a week. Same for my husband. So either my kids will fall behind, or someone will have to take an unpaid career break. And that someone will be me. Before I had kids, I moved to a job that fully paid maternity leave and provided flexible working hours, at a considerable pay cut. So it will be me taking the career break.

And that really p*sses me off, when all indications are that children are not good conduits of this disease. Fully open the schools, stagger the yard time, make them wash their hands three times a day, do PE outside whatever the weather, and have the schools be provided with extra funding to hire extra cleaners during the day.

FishOnABike

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Well given that France will have had a whopping 15 week headstart on our schools here there are bound to be some hiccups. At least we'll have the benefit of seeing what every other school in Europe has done by the time ours are opened back up.

With the exception of maybe Italy who will open in September, a few weeks ago for Italy it was suggested half of the students going to school for half a week, then alternating, with the half at home keeping up with their lessons through distance learning. That didn't go down well at all and there was uproar.

Fast testing and contact tracing will eliminate the need for schools to close for any lengthy period again.

Depends on the definition of lengthy and how often a school might have to close. No matter how fast you can turn around a test you still have to allow for the incubation period during which time someone could have transmitted it to others before showing symptoms nor being tested themselves.

Their contacts could be every other student and teacher they've shared a class with in the last week. Even with same day test turnaround these contacts would then have to quarantine for a few days before testing as if infected they might not have a sufficient viral load to test positive until several days after exposure.

We've already seen France having to shut down some schools which had partially reopened when CoViD-19 cases were found in the schools. When we do reopen there will need to be plans on how to respond to CoViD-19 positive cases and cope with the possibility of repeated staff and student absences and /or school shutdowns for a week to two weeks at a time. Whatever plans there are need to minimise the possibility of this scenario. School will not be exactly as it was before.

iamwhoiam

By September playgrounds will be open, restaurants open, cinemas open and weddings taking place . If that all goes ahead then schools will have no need for heroics measure and 2m distancing . Like the poster above I would be all for hand washing , hygiene , PE outdoors , staggered start and finish etc .

SusanC10

Does anyone else think that the DoE is just hoping that things will be much better in Sept with no need for social distancing etc and that the schools can just then reopen as normal with extra emphasis on hygiene rather than trying to do it in June with lots of measures and social distancing?

Boggles

JDD wrote: »

And that really p*sses me off, when all indications are that children are not good conduits of this disease. Fully open the schools, stagger the yard time, make them wash their hands three times a day, do PE outside whatever the weather, and have the schools be provided with extra funding to hire extra cleaners during the day.

You mean do pretty much exactly what schools were doing pre pandemic?

I imagine we will have to be slightly more nuanced than that.

is_that_so

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Wow, interesting how low the risk seems to be.

"At the time there were three confirmed cases of coronavirus involving three students, and a further three among adults in school settings.

The research found there was no confirmed transmission of the virus from these six cases to a total of 1,025 child and adult contacts in primary and secondary schools".

This is the kind of data you need to see and use for decision making. You'd like to see some movement by the DoE and school management in planning for late August/early September by the end of next month at the outside. Central to that is the position of the 2m guidance. I don't think we can go into September with it still in place.

Boggles

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does anyone else think that the DoE is just hoping that things will be much better in Sept with no need for social distancing etc and that the schools can just then reopen as normal with extra emphasis on hygiene rather than trying to do it in June with lots of measures and social distancing?

Too much focus on September.

The more pertinent question is not how schools go back in September, it's how do we keep schools open from October to next March / April.

The worrying aspect and Doctor Tony has alluded to this many times is large swathes of people think the pandemic is over.

It isn't is the short answer.

JDD

Boggles wrote: »

You mean do pretty much exactly what schools were doing pre pandemic?

I imagine we will have to be slightly more nuanced than that.

They didn't stagger start and end times or yard times in my school. They were still doing PE indoors. I think they were all sent to wash their hands after lunch - that was the only change pre-pandemic, perhaps in your school it was different?

And if my school was an outlier, and other schools were doing all these measures for all of the 13 days between the outbreak in Italy and the schools closing here, perhaps that is why the study released today showed there was very little spread of infection from COVID-19 positive cases within schools. So we continue to do exactly what schools were doing pre-pandemic we should be grand.

Benimar

iamwhoiam wrote: »

By September playgrounds will be open, restaurants open, cinemas open and weddings taking place . If that all goes ahead then schools will have no need for heroics measure and 2m distancing . Like the poster above I would be all for hand washing , hygiene , PE outdoors , staggered start and finish etc .

ALL of these will be subject to social distancing rules.

If its good to protect restaurant workers, cinema staff etc, why isn't it good to give teachers and principals the same protections?

iamwhoiam

Benimar wrote: »

ALL of these will be subject to social distancing rules.

If its good to protect restaurant workers, cinema staff etc, why isn't it good to give teachers and principals the same protections?

I dont mean to be flippant and I know that seriousness of it but does anyone honestly think that if all goes according to plan that they will be 2m apart at weddings in late August ?

JDD

Benimar wrote: »

ALL of these will be subject to social distancing rules.

If its good to protect restaurant workers, cinema staff etc, why isn't it good to give teachers and principals the same protections?

How, in all honestly, is social distancing going to be enforced at a playground?

If you have kids at a wedding, even adults after a certain hour, there will be very little social distancing going on.

Cinemas - fine. You can put the seats apart and they cater mostly to adults.

Restaurants - from what I've seen, the tables may be 2m apart but the people at the tables are all sitting closer together.

The fact that the 2m social distancing rule cannot be adhered to in all situations when all these places, including schools, open again is exactly why they are in the later phases of the roadmap. Schools should be no different.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Probably much less of a cost than not having children go back to school and all that goes with that.

My primary school in all its wisdom has decided that now is a good time to split and shuffle some classes.

So not only will this mean those kids probably going back to strange arrangements but now they will be going through it without a lot of their usual school friends making it an even less appetising option.

The school does this from time to time depending on teacher numbers so some of these classes will have already been split and reorganised previously.

This is not a good time to do this, it's quite a big deal for young children and a lot of them will be upset.

That just shows me how little student welfare comes into any decision thats made.

This was going to be happening in the kids school in September and the child in question was very upset about it. So an email was sent enquiring whether it would go ahead considering the circumstances. A survey was sent out to the parents about it and the vote came back that most parents voted against it for the following year, thankfully. I must say though in the survey the principal more or less hinted that they felt it was a bad idea but needed to get the parents view. So at least this year the kids wont be going back into different class groups.

Benimar

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I dont mean to be flippant and I know that seriousness of it but does anyone honestly think that if all goes according to plan that they will be 2m apart at weddings in late August ?

Whether they are or not, the social distancing rule will be in place (whatever length it is at that stage). Tables etc will have to be spread apart and hotels will have to at least be seen to try enforce SD.

Just because people individually decide to ignore advice doesn't mean businesses, schools etc can do it en masse.

is_that_so

Benimar wrote: »

Whether they are or not, the social distancing rule will be in place (whatever length it is at that stage). Tables etc will have to be spread apart and hotels will have to at least be seen to try enforce SD.

Just because people individually decide to ignore advice doesn't mean businesses, schools etc can do it en masse.

Eventually we will have to start to quantify actual risks in environments rather than just blanket distancing. There doesn't seem to be a very high risk here and there is an absolutely huge challenge of persuading kids to follow such guidelines.

khalessi

JDD wrote: »

How, in all honestly, is social distancing going to be enforced at a playground?

If you have kids at a wedding, even adults after a certain hour, there will be very little social distancing going on.

Cinemas - fine. You can put the seats apart and they cater mostly to adults.

Restaurants - from what I've seen, the tables may be 2m apart but the people at the tables are all sitting closer together.

The fact that the 2m social distancing rule cannot be adhered to in all situations when all these places, including schools, open again is exactly why they are in the later phases of the roadmap. Schools should be no different.

I presume sd will be carried out the same way it is in the European schools that people keep holding up as examples of how to do things right. And whatever sd is in place in September will be what we follow.

Benimar

is_that_so wrote: »

Eventually we will have to start to quantify actual risks in environments rather than just blanket distancing. There doesn't seem to be a very high risk here and there is an absolutely huge challenge of persuading kids to follow such guidelines.

The problem is, the most dangerous places to reduce SD is indoors and in an environment where someone is speaking.

Its a lot safer to reduce the SD outdoors, but that won't solve the schools/work issue.

The other thing is, we are 11 days into Phase 1 and a lot of people think getting to Phase 5 on August 10th is a certainty. Hopefully we do get there, but it isn't guaranteed and, if there is a spike, the discussion on SD will change tone pretty quickly.

I'll be interested to see what the guidelines to reopen schools are in 2 weeks when the Government publish them.

khalessi

Benimar wrote: »

I'll be interested to see what the guidelines to reopen schools are in 2 weeks when the Government publish them.

I really hope they are proper guidelines and not wishywashy good for social media bad for schools.

Drumpot

Boggles wrote: »

Too much focus on September.

The more pertinent question is not how schools go back in September, it's how do we keep schools open from October to next March / April.

The worrying aspect and Doctor Tony has alluded to this many times is large swathes of people think the pandemic is over.

It isn't is the short answer.

I saw the headline again about how safe schools are with little evidence to back it up. All I see is is the government trying To soften people up into going back in Sept.

I’ve discussed it with my wife, there is no completely safe way of sending kids back into this. Considering there is evidence that most people have an A symptomatic response to the virus, to suggest that schools are grand is flat out lieing and pure propaganda. My view is that we will most likely send children back to school in September if numbers are low but will take them out sharply if numbers rise significantly.

I don’t trust the authorities to act quickly because I acted quicker then them when this kicked off and I feel they are lieing now about schools being safe. This is part of the problem, I understand why they are lieing about schools (because most people need to be spoon fed what to do) but it reminds me why I can’t completely rely on these authorities. The contradictions from authorities have been consistently mind boggling over the last few months.

I’ve defended and supported them a lot but when I see this sort of bullsh*t it really annoys me.

iamwhoiam

Benimar wrote: »

The problem is, the most dangerous places to reduce SD is indoors and in an environment where someone is speaking.

Its a lot safer to reduce the SD outdoors, but that won't solve the schools/work issue.

The other thing is, we are 11 days into Phase 1 and a lot of people think getting to Phase 5 on August 10th is a certainty. Hopefully we do get there, but it isn't guaranteed and, if there is a spike, the discussion on SD will change tone pretty quickly.

I'll be interested to see what the guidelines to reopen schools are in 2 weeks when the Government publish them.

I will be really interested if they base the guidelines on how the virus is behaving at the given time .Then September is 3 months away and we have no idea if it will even be a worry at all by then .

Drumpot

is_that_so wrote: »

Eventually we will have to start to quantify actual risks in environments rather than just blanket distancing. There doesn't seem to be a very high risk here and there is an absolutely huge challenge of persuading kids to follow such guidelines.

I totally agree.

I think we will get back to some levels of normalcy and accept the risk associated with it. Good luck to anybody trying to keep children up to 18 years of age to social distance from other friends when they aren’t in your company.

If my children are outside I’m accepting they will most likely be close with other children and that’s an acceptable risk. I’m not saying that’s right but it’s realistic.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

is_that_so wrote: »

This is the kind of data you need to see and use for decision making. You'd like to see some movement by the DoE and school management in planning for late August/early September by the end of next month at the outside. Central to that is the position of the 2m guidance. I don't think we can go into September with it still in place.

Yes and the shift in media narrative on this is well underway already. I'd be surprised if the schools aren't open before September.

I think they'll ditch the social distancing, low case numbers in addition to what's apparently very very low risk of transmission means it's just won't be necessary.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-schools-covid-19-transmission-5110842-May2020/

ldy4mxonucwsq6

khalessi wrote: »

This was going to be happening in the kids school in September and the child in question was very upset about it. So an email was sent enquiring whether it would go ahead considering the circumstances. A survey was sent out to the parents about it and the vote came back that most parents voted against it for the following year, thankfully. I must say though in the survey the principal more or less hinted that they felt it was a bad idea but needed to get the parents view. So at least this year the kids wont be going back into different class groups.

Well at least they took the initiative and sought parents feedback, we were more or less told this is happening by email but the principal might have some food for thought with the number of parents going up to see him today.

FishOnABike

JDD wrote: »

...
And that really p*ssees me off, when all indications are that children are not good conduits of this disease. Fully open the schools, stagger the yard time, make them wash their hands three times a day, do PE outside whatever the weather, and have the schools be provided with extra funding to hire extra cleaners during the day.

That's certainly not true.

We seem to have gone from one extreme to another. First panicking that children might be 'superspreaders' then assuming they are almost invincible, without any solid grounds for either.

Two large studies have shown that ”children were as likely to be infected as adults"¹ and that transmission potential in schools and kindergartens should be evaluated using the same assumptions of infectivity as for adults"²

¹ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30287-5/fulltext
² https://zoonosen.charite.de/fileadmin/user_upload/microsites/m_cc05/virologie-ccm/dateien_upload/Weitere_Dateien/analysis-of-SARS-CoV-2-viral-load-by-patient-age.pdf

The second study (of over 3700 CoViD-19 positive patients) cautions ”The viral loads observed in the present study, combined with earlier findings of similar attack rate between children and adults, suggest that transmission potential in schools and kindergartens should be evaluated using the same assumptions of infectivity as for adults ... Based on the absence of any statistical evidence for a different viral load profile in children found in the present study, we have to caution against an unlimited re-opening of schools and kindergartens in the present situation, with a widely susceptible population and the necessity to keep transmission rates low via non-pharmaceutical interventions. Children may be as infectious as adults."

Other studies have shown crowded enclosed spaces pose the highest risk for viral transmittal. Unless the virus has been virtually eliminated, mitigating measures will need to be put in place when schools reopen. Assuming children (that spans preschool to leaving certificate) are wrapped in some sort of 'cloak of invincibility' is unfounded and foolhardy.

We will need to be hyper vigilant and have measures in place to reduce the possibility of viral transmission, detect positive cases quickly and respond to contain any potential new clusters as soon as a new case is detected.

Unless the virus is virtually eliminated, the containment measures necessary are likely to cause some disruption and discontinuity to running schools. We have to expect and plan for that.

khalessi

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Yes and the shift in media narrative on this is well underway already. I'd be surprised if the schools aren't open before September.

I think they'll ditch the social distancing, low case numbers in addition to what's apparently very very low risk of transmission means it's just won't be necessary.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-schools-covid-19-transmission-5110842-May2020/

Most schools these days open in August anyway but hopefully the guidelines for reopening will be sensible and not a media pr exercise. This virus is not going away so it needs to be treated accordingly. We learned to live with TB and polio until vaccines were discovered and we will live with this but proper guidelines need to be put in place.

seamus

SusanC10 wrote: »

Does anyone else think that the DoE is just hoping that things will be much better in Sept with no need for social distancing etc and that the schools can just then reopen as normal with extra emphasis on hygiene rather than trying to do it in June with lots of measures and social distancing?

I feel for the DoE here.

Schools want to know what the plan will be in September, they want to be able to plan so they know who is in which classes, which teachers are running them, what the timetables will be for PE, use of halls, etc etc etc. Parents want to know whether their kids have been accepted into a certain school, what teacher they will have, what days are half days, full days, early starts, term statr and finish, etc.

The DoE doesn't want to issue a very restrictive plan and then change it later on after schools have put in massive amounts of effort. They also don't want to issue a very light plan and then have to tighten it up later on.

They also don't want to issue a plan that seems very loose. If they recommended putting kids in "pods" of 25-30 without social distancing then it will suggest to people that their kids can abandon social distancing today.

So the DoE are not in an easy place, but you can already see they're testing the waters, pushing out data that kids are low risk. They're prepping parents and teachers to accept that schools are going to back full steam ahead with only the most effective and practical hygiene practices in place, and not full 2m social distancing, masks or isolation.

Benimar wrote: »

Whether they are or not, the social distancing rule will be in place (whatever length it is at that stage). Tables etc will have to be spread apart and hotels will have to at least be seen to try enforce SD.

Just because people individually decide to ignore advice doesn't mean businesses, schools etc can do it en masse.

Even businesses will have areas without social distancing. Workers will likely be scheduled onto fixed shifts and not mixed, to ensure that shofts aren't cross-contaminated. Workers on the same shift will be advised to distance if possible, but it will not be mandatory.

In France the protocol allows tables of 10 with no social distancing or masks. Patrons just have to wear masks when moving to and from their tables.

There are many environments where even 1m social distancing between everyone is not a practical reality. We're going to have to accept that and work around it.

khalessi

daydorunrun wrote: »

Haven’t seen that they weren’t offered jobs? Have you any details on that? It’s different with teachers anyway as there are a fair few who won’t want to go back as they might feel at risk (or high risk families at home) health care workers are used to those potential issue.

Just in relation to this as a former HCW, yes the risks were there, but I also knew that proper guidelines were in place for my protection and the patient, so the risk was mimimilised.

I was trained in how to deal with different situations and also aware of the safety gear available to me, and how to put it on. Protocols and comprehensive guidelines were available and updated regularly. Prevention of cross infection and contamination was drilled into us.

Teachers have not been given reassurances yet that potential issues will be dealt with and relevent safety measures will be put in place. Meanwhile the public basically are saying get on with it, just wash your hands. Hopefully it will be that simple, despite the fact that this virus is here to stay but I for one will be happy to be the weirdo teaching in the mask whenever we go back.

FishOnABike

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Wow, interesting how low the risk seems to be.

"At the time there were three confirmed cases of coronavirus involving three students, and a further three among adults in school settings.

The research found there was no confirmed transmission of the virus from these six cases to a total of 1,025 child and adult contacts in primary and secondary schools".

Risk of transmission is low if, as in the very limited study, positive cases and their close contacts are quarantined for up to two weeks as soon as a new case is identified.

"when a case was identified within a school, either all children and staff within the school or all children and staff involved with an individual case were excluded"

If anything it proves the effectiveness of rapid test, trace and quarantine. However even this would be highly disruptive unless the virus is first all but eliminated in the country.

On an individual level one could expect a higher incidence of school absences as a pupil or staff member may have to quarantine for two - three days every time they have potential CoViD-19 symptoms until they are tested and get results back. Given the asymptomatic rate and the pisibility of presymptomatic or asymptomatic transmission even this is no guarantee against seeding a cluster within a school.

If someone tests positive then we are looking at a potential temporary shutdown of the school for up to two weeks and longer if any secondary transmission is found.

Unless the virus is virtually eliminated then there is a distinct possibility of repeated disruption at either an individual level or school wide level.

Opening the schools is the easiest part, keeping them open will be far more difficult. It doesn't make much sense to reopen unless there is a realistic plan to reliably keep them open.

sideswipe

khalessi wrote: »

Just in relation to this as a former HCW, yes the risks were there, but I also knew that proper guidelines were in place for my protection and the patient, so the risk was mimimilised.

I was trained in how to deal with different situations and also aware of the safety gear available to me, and how to put it on. Protocols and comprehensive guidelines were available and updated regularly. Prevention of cross infection and contamination was drilled into us.

Teachers have not been given reassurances yet that potential issues will be dealt with and relevent safety measures will be put in place. Meanwhile the public basically are saying get on with it, just wash your hands. Hopefully it will be that simple, despite the fact that this virus is here to stay but I for one will be happy to be the weirdo teaching in the mask whenever we go back.

Dealing with people who are very ill with covid-19 and dealing with school kids who are not sick are two completely different things. If you are looking for the government to reassure you that there will not be any risk I think you'll be waiting. We are all facing into a situation where there is a new threat that didn't exist before, luckily for use it seems the the threat is far, far less than we thought it would be 3 months ago. Supermarket workers have been working for the last few months in an inside environment mostly without masks and have not been badly effected. Risk is part of life.

FishOnABike

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I will be really interested if they base the guidelines on how the virus is behaving at the given time .Then September is 3 months away and we have no idea if it will even be a worry at all by then .

The virus will just blindly do what the virus does. Our behaviour is what matters when it comes to influencing the course of CoViD-19

TheValeyard

Schools closing again in South Korea. Could be a rolling thing worldwide

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-south-korea-forced-to-close-schools-again-after-spike-in-new-covid-19-cases-11996706