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The Soulsborne combat debate
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16-05-2020 5:05pm#1Potential-Monke wrote: »Who said I didn't play them? I've tried DS1, DS2 and Bloodborne. Why would I continue to try games i know I don't like? And I would have kept going, save for every enemy respawning in the same place every time you die and having to go through it again only to be one hut by the boss and go again. Thats not fun. The combat isn't fun. Some people might like it, but some men also like getting kicked in the balls, doesn't mean they're right. Do you like being kicked in the balls nix?
Each to their own. Anyway, Kazuya Nakai is voicing Jin in the Japanese dub, and it will be awesome! (Zoro from One Piece).
You refusing to learn the mechanics of a game, isnt playing the game. I've no problem with you not liking them, however you constantly bring them up and whining about them when you haven't even scratched the surface of the game is just...dumb.. no offense! And its a waste of time for you to even talk about them in itself or anybody to read given your lack of knowledge/experience of the games.
You not being bothered to learn how to play a game is not a fault of the game, you saying you dont have the time to bother learning when the very games you praise take up a lot more time
Some people might like them? game of the year and stellar reviews all round dictate otherwise :P
Now i myself aint looking for a souls like difficulty for GOT either, i too like the odd chillaxing game, but i dont want it to be a complete button tap yawn fest either, pressing a combination of buttons on a controller isnt in anyway difficult, and the odd spike in challenge is healthy in a game.
Thats why i get bored with other open world games similar to what this game is looking more and more like, you can just turn on auto pilot and breeze through them while going through the motions of picking stuff up to unlock things that will make the game even more easy..
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You refusing to learn the mechanics of a game, isnt playing the game. I've no problem with you not liking them, however you constantly bring them up and whining about them when you haven't even scratched the surface of the game is just...dumb.. no offense! And its a waste of time for you to even talk about them in itself or anybody to read given your lack of knowledge/experience of the games.
You not being bothered to learn how to play a game is not a fault of the game, you saying you dont have the time to bother learning when the very games you praise take up a lot more time
Some people might like them? game of the year and stellar reviews all round dictate otherwise :P
Now i myself aint looking for a souls like difficulty for GOT either, i too like the odd chillaxing game, but i dont want it to be a complete button tap yawn fest either, pressing a combination of buttons on a controller isnt in anyway difficult, and the odd spike in challenge is healthy in a game.
Thats why i get bored with other open world games similar to what this game is looking more and more like, you can just turn on auto pilot and breeze through them while going through the motions of picking stuff up to unlock things that will make the game even more easy..
Please leave the "git gud" dismissive narrative elsewhere. Holding a game up as "it's not at the level of Souls" for combat simply means its different but not necessarily better quality or otherwise, hence every game isn't in that mould. You might enjoy it better and good for you but it's not objectively better automatically.
I've played them too, and I've learned how to play the games as they are. That doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy it.
Mario Kart could win game of the year, doesn't mean someone is going to automatically adore racing games. Different strokes etc. Everyone can enjoy games as they want, that's the beauty of it.0 -
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You refusing to learn the mechanics of a game, isnt playing the game. I've no problem with you not liking them, however you constantly bring them up and whining about them when you haven't even scratched the surface of the game is just...dumb.. no offense! And its a waste of time for you to even talk about them in itself or anybody to read given your lack of knowledge/experience of the games.
You not being bothered to learn how to play a game is not a fault of the game, you saying you dont have the time to bother learning when the very games you praise take up a lot more time
Some people might like them? game of the year and stellar reviews all round dictate otherwise :P
Learning the mechanics of a game is suppossed to be fun and for a lot of people Dark souls/BBourne is not fun. He tried to play the games which gives him the right to his opinion. The fact of the matter is from software games are not for everyone as unlike most games they are not designed to try to appeal to everyone.0 -
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Souls games are for real gamers. Gamers that scoff at the challenge presented by a ninja Gaiden or super meat boy. Who turn their nose up at casual mobile games. Who spit of combat systems with one assassin's creed parry's and different Stances for colour coded enemies. Gamers with hairs on their chest and even more on their balls. Gamers who aren't afraid to git gud or die trying. Gamers that know that Ace combat 7 is the best game of 2019.
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dreamers75 wrote: »Souls combat is absolute trash, its not a git gud type of control scheme in any way shape or form. Who actually thinks thats a good combat scheme?
Me. And every fan of the series Think it's fantastic. Reading enemy patterns. Dodge moves with short i-frame windows. Varied and excellent enemy design and behaviour. Positioning is highly important. And then stamina management. And then the game uses the environment to mix up the challenge presented by the game. And even with all that complexity it's pretty easy to grasp but hard to master. It might not be realistic but when has realism meant a game is fun.
Then there's the different builds were every weapon attacks differently, you can also focus on magic for offence or buffs. The game just has a huge amount of variety. Boss battles range from good to exceptional. They're a call back to the likes of Konami and Capcom games were bosses were a highlight and actually well designed. Nobody does bosses as well.
And then there's the level design which feels like a classic dungeon crawler along the lines of Etrian Odyssey. You have to play careful as your resources are limited and can only be topped up at the next checkpoint. It adds a tension to the game that is missing from a lot of handholding modern games.
Bloodbourne mixes it up by taking your shield away and your defence is now offence to gain health back. It also speeds things up. And then there's Sekiro which is a totally different combat system to the other souls games but no less amazing.
But don't feel bad about thinking that way. It takes a bit of patience to get into and many people mistake their own lack of patience for bad design as they are too used to games babying them. It's what I liked about Demon's Souls when I played it first. It basically says to the player, here's your tools. It's all you need to beat the game, go figure it out for yourself. Oh btw, yes you do need to take out that massive dragon with just your sword and board.
Again you are not alone in that way of thinking. I've know a lot of people that think that way and I've converted a lot of them to loving the Souls series. Plenty of them have thanked me as well as in their own words they would have missed out on some of the greatest games ever made. I remember Giantbombcast saying how Demon's Souls is utter thrash and the combat is terrible and now they can't get enough of souls games. Ray Barnholt had to fight with the editors and management to give the game an A it deserved.
The only thing stopping people enjoying a souls game is their own patience and their own indignation at a game daring to tell them to get better. Also there's a misconception that souls games are hard. They are difficult and perfectly fair but there is far harder. And they have an easy mode: Multiplayer.
Sorry for the rant. But really gets to be when people criticise the game and it's systems. It's alright saying the game isn't for you, hell I can't beat Sekiro because of life commitments don't let me get a good stab at the game, but I think it's very wrong to say the mechanics in these games are terrible when they are in fact some of the best designed out side of a Nintendo or Platinum game.
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Retr0gamer wrote: »
It takes a bit of patience to get into and many people mistake their own lack of patience for bad design as they are too used to games babying them.
Hah Amen, exactly my thoughts on most people that turn on the game, very few put in the effort and give up far too early. I nearly did a few times myself when i started playing Bloodborne, so its just a shame to see anybody throwing in the towel, especially in the early stages of the game. And knowing you shared that feeling at a time, but pressed on to reap the gameplay rewards
I've no problem with people not liking the game, like mr Exclamation marc for example, whos played and finished a number of the games. But those that just dip their toe in and give up after a few minutes, its no different than watching a movie for 10mins and turning it off and saying its crap..
You pull that **** in the films forum and you would get eaten alive :pac:0 -
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That's not the only thing stopping people, another reason would be that people would rather play better games, maybe a game with a better story or a game that doesnt force players to repeat sections over and over again. The games are hard which is why every review mentions this. Most people have backlogs of other games that value your time more and do a far better job at hooking you in at the start. Most games make sure your having fun before they become more difficult. Multiplayer is not the same thing as an easy mode.
I can tell you now the souls games are better than anything in your backlog. And they've got excellent environmental storytelling. And I really can't say the games waste your time as you are learning as you play them chipping away little by little and making more progress as you go on until you get a massive amount of satisfaction of overcoming a tough trial. It's classics dungeon crawler game design.
You might not have time to dedicate to playing these games which is fair enough but saying what are unarguably amoung the best games of the last decade are bad is just plain wrong.
And multiplayer makes the games way easier.
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J. Marston wrote: »Soulsborne games do get away with a lack of criticism on this. I enjoy the games and not every game needs an edge-of-your-seat story but the Soulsborne plots are a load of ****, to be honest.
Then why all the lore videos explaining the stories and how deep they are? Souls games are well written and don't rely on interruptions from cutscenes so never gets in the way of gameplay. They get away with a lack of criticism because there's nothing to criticise. The worlds the souls games create are excellent and intriguing.
Except the original Dark Souls which I think is one of the very best examples of a story being told through its mechanics. Hollowing is built into it, all those players that gave up like the people giving out on this thread are all hollows.
Then if you just follow the story you will never realise that the character is being lied to throughout. It's only if you dig deeper you fully grasp what is going on.
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Have you gotten through Sekiro? I personally find it too hard for me. WAY harder than any of the souls games or Bloodborne. I find both Nioh 1 and 2 way harder too
Nope. And yes I find it way harder than the other souls games. Still think it's a masterpiece but found it hard to wrap my head around the combat initially, how it's not about causing damage but depleting the enemies stamina. Once you get that it really clicks.
I've not beaten it because it's too hard, more so just how my life is at the moment. I have to take a break from it, come back to it and lost all my combat skills and have to start again.
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The Phantom Pain wrote: »I think the OP doesn't understand that different people like different things. Maybe the genre is just not for Monke?
I personally like a challenge but only when mechanics are super polished and with absolutely no little padding whatsoever. What puts me off buying a Souls games is not the difficult boss fights but the idea that you have to run through the same trashmobs over and over again just to get to it, time that could be spent actually, you know, "gitting gud" against the boss. It's a waste of time and I don't like games that waste my time.
Ummm i say in my very first sentence that i have no problem with him not liking the game
Its him talking **** about the game when he barely gave them a chance, heck i remember when he gave up on Bloodborne, he didnt even get passed a boss and he was hung up on mobs respawning.. Clearly didnt even give the game a chance and was mad he just couldnt windmill in to everything and win.. :rolleyes:
Its like playing a football game for the first time and getting pissed off you cant pick up the ball, calling the game **** and then quitting. And then people saying hes entitled to his opinion when he clearly didnt even put in any effort in to understanding the game :rolleyes:
Its a toxic ignorant opinion in itself and im the one who gets **** when i say he just needed to put in more effort at the get go?
fack off :pac:0 -
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Ummm i say in my very first sentence that i have no problem with him not liking the game
Its him talking **** about the game when he barely gave them a chance, heck i remember when he gave up on Bloodborne, he didnt even get passed a boss and he was hung up on mobs respawning.. Clearly didnt even give the game a chance and was mad he just couldnt windmill in to everything and win.. :rolleyes:
Its like playing a football game for the first time and getting pissed off you cant pick up the ball, calling the game **** and then quitting. And then people saying hes entitled to his opinion when he clearly didnt even put in any effort in to understanding the game :rolleyes:
Its a toxic ignorant opinion in itself and im the one who gets **** when i say he just needed to put in more effort at the get go?
fack off :pac:
Put a full stop after the word entitled and you'd be on the money 🤣0 -
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I was playing it just to play it rather than wanting to play it.
I think this is where there's a fundamental difference in opinion that will never be overcome To me, few games (a few exceptions such as Outer Wilds or Obra Dinn aside) are as endlessly compelling as a Souls game. When a new one comes out, there's inevitably a two or three week period when I become absolutely hooked on them. I'm not someone who tends to play in long sessions, but with a Souls game I'll inevitably and happily lose hours.
The worlds are so compelling, the mechanics so rewarding and the delight in overcoming the challenges so satisfying that I can't help but push through to discover all that.The Phantom Pain wrote: »What puts me off buying a Souls games is not the difficult boss fights but the idea that you have to run through the same trashmobs over and over again just to get to it, time that could be spent actually, you know, "gitting gud" against the boss. It's a waste of time and I don't like games that waste my time.
I have a remarkably low tolerance for video game filler - see my posts across the FF7 Remake or RDR2 threads to see how a game wasting my time will utterly ruin it for me.
Short, isolated sections aside, I think Souls games are remarkably light on what I would consider filler.
If you have to pass through enemies to get to a boss, that to me is as much part of the fight as the boss itself in many cases. It's about pushing through while keeping resources and avoiding damage as much as possible. Learning how best to get through a section is as important as recognising the attack patterns of the bosses. I'm sure there have been a few individual bosses across the six games where the run to the boss is that little bit too long, but for the most part the balance is usually just right (and sure the vast majority have shortcuts or bonfires that speed things up dramatically).
To me video game filler are sections where the player isn't learning anything meaningful about the world or the mechanics, or where new ideas aren't being explored by the designers. If there are a small number of sections in From's game where the balance tips from 'challenging' to 'frustrating' for me, it's more than countered by the remarkable sense of progression and forward momentum, not to mention a genuine sense of accomplishment when you finish the vast majority of tricky sections. These are games that evolve and complicate with each subsequent level or enemy type - and (for me anyway) far away from the tedious stream of 'content' that many game designers seem satisfied to settle on.
In every Soulsborne game - and I've finished them all - I get a sense of a world that keeps on meaningfully expanding as I explore it, mechanics that become more rewarding as I learn them, and an overarching design philosophy that if anything has a deep sense of respect for my effort and time. Whereas with something like FF7R I see a game where designers are on auto-pilot in order to hit some imagined 40-hour ideal.0 -
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I personally dislike these games immensely - I tried playing since DS1 came out on the 360 a million moons ago. I hated it. When it finally came out on PC, I thought "ok, let's give this a go on a proper piece of hardware where it's not going to play like it's submerged in soup" but as anyone who's tried to play it on PC will attest, it's a spectacularly poor port (not an opinion, it's very well documented). So I said "Fk you From Software, I won't darken your doorstep again" and I haven't.
Then game The Grudge - it wasn't 2000 shades of brown, it wasn't alluding that it had some sort of mysterious epic story that it wouldn't tell you, it ran well on my PC and it was quite challenging. I gave that more time than I'd have thought, but ultimately felt that this sort of precision combat isn't my thing at all - it's like fighting games in a lot of ways, there's no room for even a small mistake and that's cool. I have no beef with that at all, but it's not for me. I'm in my 40's now, I don't have the reflexes or the interest in playing that sort of game (conversely, I still love twitchy FPS games, but that's what I cut my teeth with over 20 years ago in college and so I still have the benefits of some muscle memory helping me out ). I played quite a bit of Absolver at this time too, it's a similar affair but more "fighting game" than the Souls-Bournes for anyone who hasn't played it (it's been given away for free on several platforms now).
I have Jedi Fallen Order for PS4 sitting in shrink wrap for a long time. This is unusual in that I adore anything and everything Star Wars, but because people have said that the combat is like a Souls-Bourne, I haven't really had any inclination to even open the wrapping (and tbh, it's a chore having to switch on the PlayStation anyway, it's so fraking slow to do anything).0 -
I personally dislike these games immensely - I tried playing since DS1 came out on the 360 a million moons ago. I hated it. When it finally came out on PC, I thought "ok, let's give this a go on a proper piece of hardware where it's not going to play like it's submerged in soup" but as anyone who's tried to play it on PC will attest, it's a spectacularly poor port (not an opinion, it's very well documented). So I said "Fk you From Software, I won't darken your doorstep again" and I haven't.
Then game The Grudge - it wasn't 2000 shades of brown, it wasn't alluding that it had some sort of mysterious epic story that it wouldn't tell you, it ran well on my PC and it was quite challenging. I gave that more time than I'd have thought, but ultimately felt that this sort of precision combat isn't my thing at all - it's like fighting games in a lot of ways, there's no room for even a small mistake and that's cool. I have no beef with that at all, but it's not for me. I'm in my 40's now, I don't have the reflexes or the interest in playing that sort of game (conversely, I still love twitchy FPS games, but that's what I cut my teeth with over 20 years ago in college and so I still have the benefits of some muscle memory helping me out ). I played quite a bit of Absolver at this time too, it's a similar affair but more "fighting game" than the Souls-Bournes for anyone who hasn't played it (it's been given away for free on several platforms now).
I have Jedi Fallen Order for PS4 sitting in shrink wrap for a long time. This is unusual in that I adore anything and everything Star Wars, but because people have said that the combat is like a Souls-Bourne, I haven't really had any inclination to even open the wrapping (and tbh, it's a chore having to switch on the PlayStation anyway, it's so fraking slow to do anything).
Git Gud0 -
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That's not true, modern games do offer a challenge as most games have a hard mode you can play on. A couple of decades ago there was less great games and less competition from other forms of entertainment meaning games could afford to make you repeat sections or boss fights, I'm glad that trend is almost gone.
Can't agree less with you. Triple A games have been very poor this generation with a massive decrease in the amount of quality games. I've also seen a lot of games get highly rated that would be considered mediocre previously because there's a lack of competition. Triple A games all mostly fit into a few templates that publishers know sell well and it's very boring. Also regarding Hard modes, I usually find them unbalanced and not fun. They are arbitrarily difficult as opposed to Dark Souls.
What people loved about Dark Souls was that it followed videogames of old. And I don't mean in being tough. I mean in how well it's designed, how the combat and situations you are put in are constantly evolving with the player. It has the same feel and flow of a classic 16-bit action game. I've heard it called a spiritual successor to the old school castlevania games. It just feels so different from the usually shooters where you are fighting the same enemies with just the locations and number of enemies changing. People missed the old purposeful design.
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The very fact there are people on you tube who can get through the game without even getting hit proves what your saying is absolute garbage.I'm guessing all these posters calling Dark Souls hard are not a fan of retro gaming
I'm happy you said both, because I was going to make a point. I loved Mario on the SNES. Beat it many, many times. But I can't speedrun it. Does that still mean I need to git gud? Can you speedrun it? Suppose you're a Ninja Gaiden master too? Or do you only have to be good in the games you consider good to be in this club of looking down on us lesser mortals?Its him talking **** about the game when he barely gave them a chance...
Its a toxic ignorant opinion in itself and im the one who gets **** when i say he just needed to put in more effort at the get go?
Someone already replied, but I did. I put in more than enough of my time to see if I liked it. Seems my idea of how long one should put into a game before i've given it enough time is not the same as the developers, or yourself. Just so I know, what's the cut off? How long is long enough? Is it the same for all genres?
And it's not because you're saying to get better, you're saying it in a way to make people who disagree with you seem inferior. It's not the opinion, it's the way it's said. It's elitism, up there with the PC v Console crap.
Look, different people like different things, and have different ideas of what keeps them entertained. Maybe if I was still in my 20's i'd be more willing to try them for longer, but i'm nearing 40, and there are too many good looking games in my opinion out there to be spending too long on something that doesn't initially grab. Maybe my attention span is shorter than it was. No, actually, it definitely is.
Nowadays, I'm about the overall experience, and i'm particularly picky these days. To me, the perfect blend of combat and challenge was 2018's God of War. Sure, in comparison to DS it's simpler, but it was the feel of it that I liked. I'm a demi-god, I shouldn't have issues with the fodder, only with bosses such as the Valkyries and larger enemies in general. DS does that, but requires a lot more time to learn and I don't have that time to invest.
Maybe if a future God of War had combat like DS, I'd be more likely to give it a longer go, because I'm already invested in that world. I know nothing of DS, nor do I want to anymore, because the combat had too steep a learning curve for the time required for me, and there are a lot of people who will agree.
I don't think I've ever said that the combat was straight out styte in DS, just that it wasn't for me. I think I gave Bloodborne about 4 hours, DS2 5 hours, tried our Nioh and The Surge too, while not at the same level apparantly as the From games, still the same style of combat and requirements to learn. Not for me. They don't entertain me.
All the back and forth, and it's personal opinion. Some people get more upset when others don't like the things they like. It's life. Don't be letting it get you so upset that you need to start judging. Discuss the reasons why, don't attack people for not liking something you like because you don't consider their reasons valid. I don't like Fifa because it's too complicated to learn these days. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Doesn't give you a reason to belittle me for that opinion. God damn me for being different.
This is why gamers get a bad rep.0 -
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