The Soulsborne combat debate

nix

TitianGerm wrote: »

You're posture recovers faster if you're holding block and don't get hit.

haha thanks, again, been awhile

Greyfox

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Also it's not right to judge a game like dark souls against god of war. Both are very different and not comparable.

The reason they are been compared is because many on here are claiming soulsbourne does combat better than anywhere else

Retr0gamer

Greyfox wrote: »

The reason they are been compared is because many on here are claiming soulsbourne does combat better than anywhere else

Well I'd put them up with Platinum and while God of War is very enjoyable it really is nowhere near the same level mechanically or with depth. Doesn't have to be either and it doesn't try, because it's not going for that type of game.

Potential-Monke

See, there it is again. People saying Souls games are the pinnacle, but in the same post saying it's personal choice. To ye, they are the pinnacle. To me, God of War was (and Control, but in a different way). Still all personal opinion, but Souls fans take it too seriously and have to ensure everyone knows the Souls games are the the best, and if you didn't like them you either didn't give it enough time or you're not good at gaming. It's very fanboy-ish tbh.

And cinema was mentioned above, still personal opinion. The one film that always comes to mind when I think of the best film I've seen is The Game with Michael Douglas. What it did, was the first time I've experienced that in a film. Similar films before and after may have had a similar story, but as The Game was the first one I saw to do it so effectively, I would rank it above someone else's choice. Neither are wrong.

And I did mention that I don't use Metacritic, for the same reasons as above. All subjective. I did say i might like them if I stuck with them longer, but what's the cut off? How many hours is enough before you can call it quits and move on? I know those games have shortcuts, and I did plenty exploring in the first area with that priest. It frustrated me and I turned it off. Simple as that. Did that with many games tbh. For me, the effort wasn't worth it at the time.

johnny_ultimate

Lads, can't we all just get along and agree on one indisputable fact: that Outer Wilds is the actual pinnacle

Zero-Cool

For the love of Jeebus, if you haven't played Outer Wilds, please buy it right now and play it and clear it and go listen to long plays of the soundtrack while you sleep tonight.

Arcadeheroes

Potential-Monke wrote: »

See, there it is again. People saying Souls games are the pinnacle, but in the same post saying it's personal choice. To ye, they are the pinnacle. To me, God of War was (and Control, but in a different way). Still all personal opinion, but Souls fans take it too seriously and have to ensure everyone knows the Souls games are the the best, and if you didn't like them you either didn't give it enough time or you're not good at gaming. It's very fanboy-ish tbh.

And cinema was mentioned above, still personal opinion. The one film that always comes to mind when I think of the best film I've seen is The Game with Michael Douglas. What it did, was the first time I've experienced that in a film. Similar films before and after may have had a similar story, but as The Game was the first one I saw to do it so effectively, I would rank it above someone else's choice. Neither are wrong.

And I did mention that I don't use Metacritic, for the same reasons as above. All subjective. I did say i might like them if I stuck with them longer, but what's the cut off? How many hours is enough before you can call it quits and move on? I know those games have shortcuts, and I did plenty exploring in the first area with that priest. It frustrated me and I turned it off. Simple as that. Did that with many games tbh. For me, the effort wasn't worth it at the time.

(if you didn't like them you either didn't give it enough time or you're not good at gaming.)

I dont know if the last part is directed at me but I never said you are not good at games , but I still stand by the viewpoint you didnt play enough of the series to understand why the games are so highly praised . You said you played bloodborne for 4 hours and dark souls 2 for 5 hours , thats not enough time for you to experience what the games are all about . Its not fanboyism or an attack. You dont like them its fine . I dont like the beatles , but I know the impact they had on music and the legacy they created can never be rivalled by any modern pop artist . You seem to be mixing up personal games you like and Art forms that had the biggest influence.

Ive already listed all the influences souls had not only on games but console designs , gow wont carry that . But its does not make GOW a bad game but there is a clear seperation between the games you like and the games that have made the biggest impact .

Mario bros 1, Zelda , Demons souls, Minecraft to name a few..

these titles have had a much bigger influence in game design and continue to have a an influence . subjectively I could say sonic adventure 1 is better than mario 64 , lets see how many people would call me wrong :pac:

TitianGerm

I could say sonic adventure 1 is better than mario 64 , lets see how many people would call me wrong :pac:

I think we should call you a ambulance because there's obviously something seriously wrong with you

Arcadeheroes

TitianGerm wrote: »

I think we should call you a ambulance because there's obviously something seriously wrong with you

Hahahahahaha XD

Mr Crispy

I just want some Elden Ring news.

Retr0gamer

Potential-Monke wrote: »

See, there it is again. People saying Souls games are the pinnacle, but in the same post saying it's personal choice. To ye, they are the pinnacle. To me, God of War was (and Control, but in a different way). Still all personal opinion, but Souls fans take it too seriously and have to ensure everyone knows the Souls games are the the best, and if you didn't like them you either didn't give it enough time or you're not good at gaming. It's very fanboy-ish tbh.

And cinema was mentioned above, still personal opinion. The one film that always comes to mind when I think of the best film I've seen is The Game with Michael Douglas. What it did, was the first time I've experienced that in a film. Similar films before and after may have had a similar story, but as The Game was the first one I saw to do it so effectively, I would rank it above someone else's choice. Neither are wrong.

And I did mention that I don't use Metacritic, for the same reasons as above. All subjective. I did say i might like them if I stuck with them longer, but what's the cut off? How many hours is enough before you can call it quits and move on? I know those games have shortcuts, and I did plenty exploring in the first area with that priest. It frustrated me and I turned it off. Simple as that. Did that with many games tbh. For me, the effort wasn't worth it at the time.

See we do it because it's for your own good. It's like when trump tells people to drink bleach. And you scream at people not to do it. But there's always people out there that will.

Tl;Dr dark souls naysayers are bleach and hydroxychloroquine maniacs

Souls games are overrated. Sekiro fixed a lot of things wrong with them.

Sekiro is probably my favourite From Software game. Although I have played all three Dark Souls games, I haven't finished any of them. I like the idea of them, I get whipped up into a frenzy and buy them on launch, but I eventually get bored and frustrated after 30 or so hours, which is long enough to get full satisfaction from any game imo. Souls are fairly repetitive. As you get stronger, so do the enemies. The game doesn't vary much throughout.

I like how this Sekiro is streamlined. There is no stats page with tons of numbers with almost no explanation of what they mean or what they would be effective for. I felt overwhelmed by all the items. Whatever I choose, I felt like I could have easily been making the wrong decision. It was a constant nagging feeling that I was doing it wrong, and how else was I to know better given its obtuse instructions and storytelling. When I level up in Sekiro, I simply get more health or more damage. The only optionals are the abilities but that's small enough and contained enough to not have the overwhelming, niggling feeling of indecision. I frankly didn't have the patience to explore different builds in DS. DS outstayed its welcome before I'd be bothered to restart or respec into another insecure build. Also platforming has been largely removed. DS had some awful tightropes that you had to navigate where falling meant instant death. Who the fcuk enjoys that?!

Although some variety in weapons could be nice but that could complicate things if tons of stats had to be introduced.

Sekiro is a true single player game. I hated being invaded in DS. I hated the concept of it. I hated been given the option of have someone join you to fight bosses. It's an easy-mode that is being dangled in front of you. The best part of souls games is slowly progressing through the world. It has metroidvania elements in that regard. I love exploring through new areas. I haven't got the best will power so sometimes I'd avail of online help and I felt like I cheated. It made the game feel cheap and easy. It undermined the difficulty, the hardwork you need to put in and the resulting satisfaction you get from progressing. People always give out about multiplayer games being tacked onto single player games, I personally love all sorts of multiplayer games so I've rarely agreed, but I do agreed with DS. It did not need that aspect and it takes away from my enjoyment of the game.

I love the speed of the combat in Sekiro. I reminded me of Tenchu Stealth Assassin from the very beginning. Probably a big reason why this has resonated with me. That series really deserved a modern remake and this is basically it. Nailing down a few block along with a counter is extremely satisfying. I feel like I'm playing a fighting game. The ability to jump in and out of combat allows you to make mistakes. It allows you to try take on multiple enemies at once unlike in DS, which is often a death sentence. I hated that the main strategy to DS games seemed to revolve around argo'ing or cheesing one enemy at a time until an area is cleared. Sure that's a viable strategy in Sekiro, you can also jump around like a lunatic too.

The story telling in Souls in almost non-existent. I couldn't tell you anything about the plot of any of the Dark Souls games. A bunch of obtuse characters nattering nonsense around bonfires. Someone was saying there's a ton of youtube videos explaining the story; there shouldn't need to be youtube videos explaining a story. The game itself should do that. Sekiro actually had a coherent plot. It actually encouraged me to push on. Something sorely missed from souls.

gimli2112

Arcadeheroes wrote: »

I dont like the beatles

I can only hope you never listened to the White Album.

I can see both sides of the argument (not about the Beatles where you are clearly wrong) I wouldn't consider myself a good gamer, average at best. One thing I often felt about Bloodborne was there was no sh***y deaths. In fps games you'll get beaten by better players but sometimes it's just bs, the division 2 drives me insane when an npc pops up from nowhere and kills me or I get stuck in a door and killed. With Bloodborne a death always seemed to be my fault, something I could learn from and do over and over again

Zero-Cool

Sekiro is the only Souls game I haven't played it, still on my list but hearing "It's all about Parry, not about dodge" makes me hesitant. I loved sword & board with dodge in the Souls games, never used magic or parry so not sure if I'd feel the same love for Sekiro. Will definitely pick it up at some stage but but that's the one thing slowing down my purchase.

gimli2112

I couldn't parry to save my life (literally) in BB but once I got used to it I made a build specifically for it. I think parrying in BB was a lot easier than in Souls though.

Retr0gamer

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Sekiro is the only Souls game I haven't played it, still on my list but hearing "It's all about Parry, not about dodge" makes me hesitant. I loved sword & board with dodge in the Souls games, never used magic or parry so not sure if I'd feel the same love for Sekiro. Will definitely pick it up at some stage but but that's the one thing slowing down my purchase.

It's a completely different game. Parry and combat are handled a lot differently.

Retr0gamer

I do t get people giving out about the story in the souls games. I just play them and ignore the flavour text. There's enough story in the environment and npc chats that you get a gist of it and can immerse yourself further if you want to.

It's pretty much how the whole of the very first dark souls and demons souls is meant to be played. The whole point of the story is you are being lied to and can find the truth if you wish to dig deeper.

gimli2112

given I never follow the story and that there's no cut scenes to skip I was in the same situation I am with every game, not knowing what is going on. I'm still not sure what FF7 is all about

Penn

gimli2112 wrote: »

given I never follow the story and that there's no cut scenes to skip I was in the same situation I am with every game, not knowing what is going on. I'm still not sure what FF7 is all about

*gimli playing The Last of Us*

Wait, if my character is The Last of Us, who the hell is that person?!

gimli2112

Penn wrote: »

*gimli playing The Last of Us*

Wait, if my character is The Last of Us, who the hell is that person?!

ha it's actually one of the few games I totally got into the story. I don't think I've ever been so invested in the game characters. A bad ending would have affected gimli in real life

Zero-Cool

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The whole point of the story is you are being lied to and can find the truth if you wish to dig deeper.

I think that's the best explanation about any of the Souls games stories.

Arcadeheroes

Using environmental storytelling can be just as powerful if not more powerful than having to sit through a dialogue tree with an NPC while he tells you everything for 10-15 mins and brings the game to a halt till he finishes.

Without being told everything upfront and using envoirements to tell the story , fans can speculate and find hidden story arcs throughout that fantasy world and come up with a bunch of theories about what really happened to certain game characters . The likes of VaatiVidya and EpicNameBro were making story content years after dark souls release because after your first playthrough , the deeper you dived into what NPC were saying you started to notice a much bigger picture and just how alive the soul series world is.

Other games that have done this so well is Silent Hill 2 , Shadow of the Colossus and Ico . Sometimes words dont need to be spoken.

Not sure how you can describe the method of storytelling as powerful. It's current method doesn't convey the story to me very well, if at all. But I don't have a huge problem with that. Mario 64 hasn't got much of a plot and isn't known for it's story telling but it doesn't matter. I do have a problem people claiming the story telling is excellent in DS, when it clearly is not, if it has serious issues conveying it. The environments are fantastic and do allude to a past but it stops there. A 3rd party explaining it is a failing. I'm trying to think of a fair metaphor but I can only come up with an unfair one; it's like a book with every second page missing.

Dcully

Its rather funny seeing the same people in here saying get good as the ones saying to me many moons ago that simracing is just too hard to be fun.
I dont enjoy souls games but i do enjoy simracing, go figure.

Retr0gamer

You don't have to understand it for it to be good storytelling. Not everything is Metal Gear Solid or Mass Effect where everything has to be explained in long drawn out conversations that interrupt the flow of the game.

Souls games you don't need to understand everything. And sometimes not knowing or having a bit of mystery is far more effective than being told everything. And if you do want to know more part of the fun for some people can be unraveling the mystery behind what it all means.

I wish more games were like Dark Souls with storytelling because most cutscenes or exposition in games is boring and breaks the flow of the game. Dark Souls gets what it needs to get across to the player without taking them out of the gameplay.

Arcadeheroes

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure how you can describe the method of storytelling as powerful. It's current method doesn't convey the story to me very well, if at all. But I don't have a huge problem with that. Mario 64 hasn't got much of a plot and isn't known for it's story telling but it doesn't matter. I do have a problem people claiming the story telling is excellent in DS, when it clearly is not, if it has serious issues conveying it. The environments are fantastic and do allude to a past but it stops there. A 3rd party explaining it is a failing. I'm trying to think of a fair metaphor but I can only come up with an unfair one; it's like a book with every second page missing.

The story is told when you talk to NPCs , Items descriptions and by the envoirements. You only have to watch VaatiVidya videos to see how incredibly crafted dark souls story is told , while many would see that as a cop out , its really up to the player if they want to seek the answers to the questions they have .

recyclops

Zero-Cool wrote: »

For the love of Jeebus, if you haven't played Outer Wilds, please buy it right now and play it and clear it and go listen to long plays of the soundtrack while you sleep tonight.

ive tried on three seperate occasions to play this and i just cant be arsed, dont know why it could be im lazy but i am just not getting drawn into the game at all

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You don't have to understand it for it to be good storytelling. Not everything is Metal Gear Solid or Mass Effect where everything has to be explained in long drawn out conversations that interrupt the flow of the game.

Souls games you don't need to understand everything. And sometimes not knowing or having a bit of mystery is far more effective than being told everything. And if you do want to know more part of the fun for some people can be unraveling the mystery behind what it all means.

I wish more games were like Dark Souls with storytelling because most cutscenes or exposition in games is boring and breaks the flow of the game. Dark Souls gets what it needs to get across to the player without taking them out of the gameplay.

We'll never agree in this case. Imagine coming out of a film without understanding what happened.



People love being dropped into a world without being told anything. I get that. Call it world building or whatever you want. Games do not have to have a coherent plot. Just don't say this has good storytelling because as you say yourself, it is a mystery, that can be unraveled by a 3rd party usually.

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

We'll never agree in this case. Imagine coming out of a film without understanding what happened.

2001: A Space Odyssey and Save the Green Planet spring to mind and I love those films dearly. In the case of Save the Green Planet what first appeared to be a bizarre mish mash of genres and inconsistent tone was actually a lot deeper when I took the time to think about it.

I think David Lynch fans might have something to say about that as well.

Deleted User wrote: »

Just don't say this has good storytelling because as you say yourself, it is a mystery, that can be unraveled by a 3rd party usually.

Similarly, and I don't know how to say this without being antagonistic but I'm not, I think it's a bit rich to tell people it's bad storytelling because you didn't understand/appreciate it.

Storytelling isn't just the story that's being told, it's also the way it's told and Dark Souls I feel is unique and very clever in how it uses it's mechanics and also it's obtuseness to enhance its story. It's something I think is lost in the sequels which use the same storytelling devices but is kind of obtuse for the sake of it rather than it actively enhancing the story.

I think that gets to the whole point of why Souls fans are so defensive of the series. It's like finding a great TV series, telling your mates about it and then them watching designated survivor instead of the Wire. You want to share the experience with other people but it's tough to get other people on board when there is a lot of misinformation about the game scaring people away. Then you also have to deal with people saying the game is awful.

There's always people out there that for some reason like dreadful games. I got in a facebook argument recently with Sonic Adventure 2 fans who are quite clearly deranged if they think that game is good and the fans of Legend of Dragoon baffle me. But Dark Souls is objectively not a bad game. You might not get it, you might not understand it, you might not have the patience for it but to call it bad is just wrong. Same with Sim Racing. The level of execution in those games is beyond me and I don't have the interest in cars others would but I wouldn't call them bad.

And I'm not being holier than thou because I've been on the wrong side of history before. Even recently I hated FF12 since release. I didn't get the game and was baffled at how well loved it was. Tried it again with the recently rerelease and you know what, I was wrong. It's a fabulous game. And why did I hate it before? I was up to my eyes with college work and didn't have the patience for it so critical pathed it and didn't take my time with it. The reason I didn't like it was entirely my fault.

Sometimes it's ok to admit you are wrong or don't understand something.

Unless it's Legend of Dragoon and then you are objectively wrong.

Zero-Cool

recyclops wrote: »

ive tried on three seperate occasions to play this and i just cant be arsed, dont know why it could be im lazy but i am just not getting drawn into the game at all

You obviously haven't tried hard enough or spent enough time or are good at gaming.





jk