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The Soulsborne combat debate

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  • 16-05-2020 5:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭


    Who said I didn't play them? I've tried DS1, DS2 and Bloodborne. Why would I continue to try games i know I don't like? And I would have kept going, save for every enemy respawning in the same place every time you die and having to go through it again only to be one hut by the boss and go again. Thats not fun. The combat isn't fun. Some people might like it, but some men also like getting kicked in the balls, doesn't mean they're right. Do you like being kicked in the balls nix?

    Each to their own. Anyway, Kazuya Nakai is voicing Jin in the Japanese dub, and it will be awesome! (Zoro from One Piece).

    You refusing to learn the mechanics of a game, isnt playing the game. I've no problem with you not liking them, however you constantly bring them up and whining about them when you haven't even scratched the surface of the game is just...dumb.. no offense! And its a waste of time for you to even talk about them in itself or anybody to read given your lack of knowledge/experience of the games.

    You not being bothered to learn how to play a game is not a fault of the game, you saying you dont have the time to bother learning when the very games you praise take up a lot more time :D

    Some people might like them? game of the year and stellar reviews all round dictate otherwise :P

    Now i myself aint looking for a souls like difficulty for GOT either, i too like the odd chillaxing game, but i dont want it to be a complete button tap yawn fest either, pressing a combination of buttons on a controller isnt in anyway difficult, and the odd spike in challenge is healthy in a game.

    Thats why i get bored with other open world games similar to what this game is looking more and more like, you can just turn on auto pilot and breeze through them while going through the motions of picking stuff up to unlock things that will make the game even more easy.. :(


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,477 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    nix wrote: »
    You refusing to learn the mechanics of a game, isnt playing the game. I've no problem with you not liking them, however you constantly bring them up and whining about them when you haven't even scratched the surface of the game is just...dumb.. no offense! And its a waste of time for you to even talk about them in itself or anybody to read given your lack of knowledge/experience of the games.

    You not being bothered to learn how to play a game is not a fault of the game, you saying you dont have the time to bother learning when the very games you praise take up a lot more time :D

    Some people might like them? game of the year and stellar reviews all round dictate otherwise :P

    Now i myself aint looking for a souls like difficulty for GOT either, i too like the odd chillaxing game, but i dont want it to be a complete button tap yawn fest either, pressing a combination of buttons on a controller isnt in anyway difficult, and the odd spike in challenge is healthy in a game.

    Thats why i get bored with other open world games similar to what this game is looking more and more like, you can just turn on auto pilot and breeze through them while going through the motions of picking stuff up to unlock things that will make the game even more easy.. :(

    Please leave the "git gud" dismissive narrative elsewhere. Holding a game up as "it's not at the level of Souls" for combat simply means its different but not necessarily better quality or otherwise, hence every game isn't in that mould. You might enjoy it better and good for you but it's not objectively better automatically.

    I've played them too, and I've learned how to play the games as they are. That doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy it.

    Mario Kart could win game of the year, doesn't mean someone is going to automatically adore racing games. Different strokes etc. Everyone can enjoy games as they want, that's the beauty of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭nix


    Please leave the "git gud" dismissive narrative elsewhere.

    Please highlight exactly my "git gud" dismissive narrative..


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    nix wrote: »
    You refusing to learn the mechanics of a game, isnt playing the game. I've no problem with you not liking them, however you constantly bring them up and whining about them when you haven't even scratched the surface of the game is just...dumb.. no offense! And its a waste of time for you to even talk about them in itself or anybody to read given your lack of knowledge/experience of the games.

    You not being bothered to learn how to play a game is not a fault of the game, you saying you dont have the time to bother learning when the very games you praise take up a lot more time :D

    Some people might like them? game of the year and stellar reviews all round dictate otherwise :P

    Learning the mechanics of a game is suppossed to be fun and for a lot of people Dark souls/BBourne is not fun. He tried to play the games which gives him the right to his opinion. The fact of the matter is from software games are not for everyone as unlike most games they are not designed to try to appeal to everyone.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,931 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Souls games are for real gamers. Gamers that scoff at the challenge presented by a ninja Gaiden or super meat boy. Who turn their nose up at casual mobile games. Who spit of combat systems with one assassin's creed parry's and different Stances for colour coded enemies. Gamers with hairs on their chest and even more on their balls. Gamers who aren't afraid to git gud or die trying. Gamers that know that Ace combat 7 is the best game of 2019.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,851 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    For I know it is tongue in cheek!

    Anyway, different people like different games. The idea of spending hours "learning" the mechanics is not appealing to me and many others. It is to some others then. For me, gaming is meant to be enjoyable. Souls-like games remind me of work, and I do enough of that already. Again, each to their own.

    But like other threads on upcoming games, I'm out until I've played it. Seen enough, want to keep the rest new.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,558 ✭✭✭✭dreamers75


    Souls combat is absolute trash, its not a git gud type of control scheme in any way shape or form. Who actually thinks thats a good combat scheme?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭OptimusTractor


    I'm not really digging the combat that's currently taking place in this thread.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,931 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    Souls combat is absolute trash, its not a git gud type of control scheme in any way shape or form. Who actually thinks thats a good combat scheme?

    Me. And every fan of the series Think it's fantastic. Reading enemy patterns. Dodge moves with short i-frame windows. Varied and excellent enemy design and behaviour. Positioning is highly important. And then stamina management. And then the game uses the environment to mix up the challenge presented by the game. And even with all that complexity it's pretty easy to grasp but hard to master. It might not be realistic but when has realism meant a game is fun.

    Then there's the different builds were every weapon attacks differently, you can also focus on magic for offence or buffs. The game just has a huge amount of variety. Boss battles range from good to exceptional. They're a call back to the likes of Konami and Capcom games were bosses were a highlight and actually well designed. Nobody does bosses as well.

    And then there's the level design which feels like a classic dungeon crawler along the lines of Etrian Odyssey. You have to play careful as your resources are limited and can only be topped up at the next checkpoint. It adds a tension to the game that is missing from a lot of handholding modern games.

    Bloodbourne mixes it up by taking your shield away and your defence is now offence to gain health back. It also speeds things up. And then there's Sekiro which is a totally different combat system to the other souls games but no less amazing.

    But don't feel bad about thinking that way. It takes a bit of patience to get into and many people mistake their own lack of patience for bad design as they are too used to games babying them. It's what I liked about Demon's Souls when I played it first. It basically says to the player, here's your tools. It's all you need to beat the game, go figure it out for yourself. Oh btw, yes you do need to take out that massive dragon with just your sword and board.

    Again you are not alone in that way of thinking. I've know a lot of people that think that way and I've converted a lot of them to loving the Souls series. Plenty of them have thanked me as well as in their own words they would have missed out on some of the greatest games ever made. I remember Giantbombcast saying how Demon's Souls is utter thrash and the combat is terrible and now they can't get enough of souls games. Ray Barnholt had to fight with the editors and management to give the game an A it deserved.

    The only thing stopping people enjoying a souls game is their own patience and their own indignation at a game daring to tell them to get better. Also there's a misconception that souls games are hard. They are difficult and perfectly fair but there is far harder. And they have an easy mode: Multiplayer.

    Sorry for the rant. But really gets to be when people criticise the game and it's systems. It's alright saying the game isn't for you, hell I can't beat Sekiro because of life commitments don't let me get a good stab at the game, but I think it's very wrong to say the mechanics in these games are terrible when they are in fact some of the best designed out side of a Nintendo or Platinum game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,909 ✭✭✭nix


    Retr0gamer wrote: »

    It takes a bit of patience to get into and many people mistake their own lack of patience for bad design as they are too used to games babying them.

    Hah Amen, exactly my thoughts on most people that turn on the game, very few put in the effort and give up far too early. I nearly did a few times myself when i started playing Bloodborne, so its just a shame to see anybody throwing in the towel, especially in the early stages of the game. And knowing you shared that feeling at a time, but pressed on to reap the gameplay rewards :)

    I've no problem with people not liking the game, like mr Exclamation marc for example, whos played and finished a number of the games. But those that just dip their toe in and give up after a few minutes, its no different than watching a movie for 10mins and turning it off and saying its crap.. :(

    You pull that **** in the films forum and you would get eaten alive :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    Dark 1 2 3 and bloodborne are easy


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    The only thing stopping people enjoying a souls game is their own patience and their own indignation at a game daring to tell them to get better. Also there's a misconception that souls games are hard. They are difficult and perfectly fair but there is far harder. And they have an easy mode: Multiplayer.

    That's not the only thing stopping people, another reason would be that people would rather play better games, maybe a game with a better story or a game that doesnt force players to repeat sections over and over again. The games are hard which is why every review mentions this. Most people have backlogs of other games that value your time more and do a far better job at hooking you in at the start. Most games make sure your having fun before they become more difficult. Multiplayer is not the same thing as an easy mode.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    Greyfox wrote: »
    That's not the only thing stopping people, another reason would be that people would rather play better games, maybe a game with a better story or a game that doesnt force players to repeat sections over and over again. The games are hard which is why every review mentions this. Most people have backlogs of other games that value your time more and do a far better job at hooking you in at the start. Most games make sure your having fun before they become more difficult. Multiplayer is not the same thing as an easy mode.

    The games aren't hard at all . And you don't repeat sections over and over again . There are are areas that are cleverly interconnected but that doesn't mean you have to do what you've already done . And the games aren't hard they just take a learning curve . Anyway we could debate it back and forth and neither of us would agree however what can't be debated is that these games are loved by millions world wide


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    Greyfox wrote: »
    . Multiplayer is not the same thing as an easy mode.

    Yes multi player as in summoning is very much easy mode . It's why I'm crap at sekiro and will probably never finish it but allowed me to complete all 3 ds games and BB


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,120 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    Greyfox wrote: »
    That's not the only thing stopping people, another reason would be that people would rather play better games, maybe a game with a better story or a game that doesnt force players to repeat sections over and over again. The games are hard which is why every review mentions this. Most people have backlogs of other games that value your time more and do a far better job at hooking you in at the start. Most games make sure your having fun before they become more difficult. Multiplayer is not the same thing as an easy mode.

    Soulsborne games do get away with a lack of criticism on this. I enjoy the games and not every game needs an edge-of-your-seat story but the Soulsborne plots are a load of ****, to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    Alot of the reasons for people thinking dark souls is too hard is because they delve into areas their character simply isn't levelled up enough yet for however anyone that finds the route from fire link shrine to beating the first proper boss hard is just very bad at the game and have no patience. This initial section.It's ****ing easy


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,719 ✭✭✭Mr Crispy


    This is a very interesting discussion.......

    But it would be better served in its own thread, imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    Mr Crispy wrote: »
    This is a very interesting discussion.......

    But it would be better served in its own thread, imo.

    Yeah your right. On topic this games looks cool, looking forward to seeing the reviews for it


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sephiroth_dude


    I would love to get into the souls games but I just don't have the patience for them, anyway hopefully they'll release another video soon with more details, I the side mission quests are decent quality, witcher 3 quality!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    dreamers75 wrote: »
    Souls combat is absolute trash, its not a git gud type of control scheme in any way shape or form. Who actually thinks thats a good combat scheme?

    The very fact there are people on you tube who can get through the game without even getting hit proves what your saying is absolute garbage.

    1.There's you absolute crap at the game because you aren't willing to put in the time to learn the combat

    2. There's me , average enough player. Who has put in the time and used summoning to help when things get too tough

    3. Absolute freaks who can breeze through these games

    You do know these games are rpgs where you have to level up your stats so your character can get through areas that you may initially have access to but have no business being in because your character simply isnt strong enough yet


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,931 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Greyfox wrote: »
    That's not the only thing stopping people, another reason would be that people would rather play better games, maybe a game with a better story or a game that doesnt force players to repeat sections over and over again. The games are hard which is why every review mentions this. Most people have backlogs of other games that value your time more and do a far better job at hooking you in at the start. Most games make sure your having fun before they become more difficult. Multiplayer is not the same thing as an easy mode.

    I can tell you now the souls games are better than anything in your backlog. And they've got excellent environmental storytelling. And I really can't say the games waste your time as you are learning as you play them chipping away little by little and making more progress as you go on until you get a massive amount of satisfaction of overcoming a tough trial. It's classics dungeon crawler game design.

    You might not have time to dedicate to playing these games which is fair enough but saying what are unarguably amoung the best games of the last decade are bad is just plain wrong.

    And multiplayer makes the games way easier.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,931 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Soulsborne games do get away with a lack of criticism on this. I enjoy the games and not every game needs an edge-of-your-seat story but the Soulsborne plots are a load of ****, to be honest.

    Then why all the lore videos explaining the stories and how deep they are? Souls games are well written and don't rely on interruptions from cutscenes so never gets in the way of gameplay. They get away with a lack of criticism because there's nothing to criticise. The worlds the souls games create are excellent and intriguing.

    Except the original Dark Souls which I think is one of the very best examples of a story being told through its mechanics. Hollowing is built into it, all those players that gave up like the people giving out on this thread are all hollows.

    Then if you just follow the story you will never realise that the character is being lied to throughout. It's only if you dig deeper you fully grasp what is going on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    I can tell you now the souls games are better than anything in your backlog. And they've got excellent environmental storytelling. And I really can't say the games waste your time as you are learning as you play them chipping away little by little and making more progress as you go on until you get a massive amount of satisfaction of overcoming a tough trial. It's classics dungeon crawler game design.

    You might not have time to dedicate to playing these games which is fair enough but saying what are unarguably amoung the best games of the last decade are bad is just plain wrong.

    And multiplayer makes the games way easier.

    Have you gotten through Sekiro? I personally find it too hard for me. WAY harder than any of the souls games or Bloodborne. I find both Nioh 1 and 2 way harder too


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,931 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Minime2.5 wrote: »
    Have you gotten through Sekiro? I personally find it too hard for me. WAY harder than any of the souls games or Bloodborne. I find both Nioh 1 and 2 way harder too

    Nope. And yes I find it way harder than the other souls games. Still think it's a masterpiece but found it hard to wrap my head around the combat initially, how it's not about causing damage but depleting the enemies stamina. Once you get that it really clicks.

    I've not beaten it because it's too hard, more so just how my life is at the moment. I have to take a break from it, come back to it and lost all my combat skills and have to start again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,341 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    My only Soulsborne game was Bloodborne.

    I enjoyed it for the most part. Once the combat started to click it was fun. It was challenging but rewarded patience and strategy. And I stopped playing halfway through because I realised I didn't really give a f*ck about it. I was playing it just to play it rather than wanting to play it. There was nothing driving me forward other than "This is where I go now". There was no excitement to see new areas or enemies. There was no urge to read any item descriptions or learn about the lore. I just didn't care.

    I like a challenge, but I like a challenge when I'm enjoying the game so much that I want to challenge myself, when I want to keep playing and get better at the game because I just want to keep playing it. That never happened for me with Bloodborne, and I strongly doubt it ever would have. That said, I'm pondering giving Sekiro a go, because maybe it will click with me.

    The games don't appeal to everyone, regardless of the difficulty of the combat. And that's okay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    I'm guessing all these posters calling Dark Souls hard are not a fan of retro gaming


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,198 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Mod note: Separated this off into its own thread, as it was taking over the other one!


  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭Arcadeheroes


    There seems to be alot of strong negative feelings towards BloodSouls.
    Personally I do not feel the games are hard , the problem is games for decades have offered little to no challenge to the player anymore so when Demon souls came along and asked for alittle bit more of the player it seemed like you were climbing mountains when you just wanted to take a walk through a field.


    I never liked the term git gud nor have I ever agreed with people saying Souls games are hard just for the sake of being hard . Death is the theme for souls trilogy but never is made to be unfair. Any obstacle the player faces always has a solution they can overcome by either summoning a friend , Parrying , roll dodging , being a mage using range attacks .

    Enemies have huge build up attacks before they hit you , because the players panic during the build up more often than not they get hit and die. You do not get the sense of adrenaline or the sense of achieving something without the player giving abit more of themselves. Its why I have more vivid memories with Sekiro and Souls games than others like a Uncharted or Horizon Zero Dawn .

    Complaints about the story is depending if you want it handed to you or you want to seek the answers to the questions you are asking .
    Envoirment storytelling speaks louder to me than having an npc given me a backstory about something through 5 mins of dialouge that will end up being boring to sit through and quickly lose interest in. To this day there are still videos and theories being made about the characters in dark souls 3 and sekiro . No one is having the discussion on what happened in HZD Or God of War, because the games offered everything upfront with no backstories to characters or the game worlds on how and why were they built. what came before them and for what purpose.

    These are some of the reasons why From software games will stand the test of time and be regarded as some of the best videogames ever made. whether they are for you thats an entirely different matter.

    At the end of the day the games you enjoy are the games you enjoy . No one is going to change your mind on how the way you want to play games .


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,791 ✭✭✭sweetie


    I bought Demon's from Play Asia when first released. Couldn't get into it, too tough and so traded it. Then got Bloodborne when it came out, loved the setting but was muck at it. I persevered and after many hours of practice I was much better and addicted. Have gone back and completed them all now and also the Nioh games. That eureka moment when I got the combat of Sekiro down, nothing like it. Nothing else holds a candle to these type of games bar zelda or metroidvania for me now. I start playing Nioh 2 and I can forget the sadness going on at the moment in my life, its a great and necessary escape. Tv doesn't give me that these days, maybe only a good book or film comes close.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,931 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Thread title is misleading. There is no debate. Only right and wrong people.


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