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How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

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    #182
    El Gato De Negocios
    Registered Users Posts: 6,690 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    john4321 wrote: »
    509318.JPG

    WTF BEASTY?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad:


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    #183
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Statutory Ape wrote: »
    WTF BEASTY?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad:

    You wouldn't think it, but she's also into trigonometry, constantly bringing up "angles" ...


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    #184
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    The last two posts are really funny ...... on this fine sunny Monday morning.


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    #185
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,645 ✭✭✭storker


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Cant see them opening up ww3 over Irish water . What would it raise ?

    Hackles :D


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    #186
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    purifol0 wrote: »
    Ah look the public sector is massive. Far far far too big for a tiny country with a small population. It employs almost 400,000 people! Many doing nothing useful at all. As soon as new payscales are announced we will see a huge amount of early retirements. And like the last time this happened, the desk jobs werent replaced because "the work" they did didnt matter one iota. They were killing time, but managers didnt care because the more employees they manage, the more power they have and the more they get to compare themselves to private sector counterparts who manage the same amount.



    I mean cmon the fat at the top obviously needs to be cut, but you can go into a driving license centre today and watch the 20 nothing year old clerks physically POST documents to Cork because they dont "do" email.



    The PS has yet to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and by that I mean efficient use of IT to remove the need for uneccessary and unskilled labour. That means that state could quite easily shed a huge amount of workers, young ones that can either find private employment (good luck finding a clerical position in the private sector) or emmigrate.


    Since no one leaves the public sector its just become a burgeoning liability and even a 3 day week wont plug the gap.



    I mean no offence to you at all btw, but good God has this problem been in the works since Bertie skyrocketed PS pay before the last crash. And it wouldnt even be so mich of a pain point if the public actually got some use out of all the money we are taxed to fund the PS.


    In the last two weeks ive seen my friends lose their jobs completely (construction) and a family member put on 4 day weeks thus negating the raise that they had just fought for just months before. Meanwhile the entire PS is on full pay.

    I know what you mean by top heavy and way behind the times.

    I work in the forest's and parks, and look after tree's, shrubberies, pathways and arboretum's.
    Sometimes in the winter I'm working with a chainsaw all day covered in sawdust and I do actually love my work.
    It's productive and keeps me alert and I love the outdoors.

    Sometimes I have to go to head office and bring in paper work or do a bit of administration maybe for a day in the month.

    I walk into the office, they have a desk with a computer fortunately for me I can touch type 50 word's per minute, because I trained myself with Mavis Beacon in 2001

    But there's people in those office's year's still looking at the keyboard's to type.
    They're there 20 year's like myself, some of them.
    And you can see they're just plodding along the life being sucked out of them, playing the game looking busy etc

    In the summer I get the Oh you're so lucky to be outdoors.
    In the winter it's how can you work outside in that, fortunately when the weather's really bad I can go to the workshop service lawnmower s, chainsaws sharpen tools or other indoor work.

    And what you said about the manager's on a power trip trying to compete with the public sector is true.


    They keep each other in a job by playing chess, and reorganize the system every few years.

    There's some semistates who bring in manager's on a two or 3 year contract and they get these to try to enhance the company and because some idiot does a great interview with a portfolio full of word salad, pay them 90,000 a year only to upset the apple cart more and after 3 year's they're gone onto another job before the ship sinks.

    Then there's another interview and in comes a new manager, from a background which has nothing to do with the semistate they're supposed to be running, rinse and repeat....

    I've seen them come and go, only to leave havoc in their wake...


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    #187
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    No. But to claim there is 'no return on investment' in our schools, universities, hospitals, roads, motorways, sanitation, power-grid, and so on is just ridiculous.

    Nonsense.

    I pay separately towards our school, I will pay separately towards university, I pay again when I go to hospital, or the GP, dentist etc. I pay motor tax to use the roads along with tax on diesel and I pay tolls on motorways. I also pay for any power I use. I pay for sanitation through the LPT as over 90% of that In our county goes to fund Irish Water.

    I give well over 50% of everything I earn back to the government in some form or another so try again.

    What do we get in return for our income tax ?


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    #188
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,127 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
    So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
    As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
    That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
    If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
    I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
    Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.


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    #189
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    tom1ie wrote: »
    So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
    So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
    As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
    That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
    If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
    I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
    Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

    I'd say it's a reset button, because in order to get the system going it'll have to be a once in a lifetime warranty...

    No other way, everyone is effected by this....


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    #190
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,127 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    nthclare wrote: »
    I'd say it's a reset button, because in order to get the system going it'll have to be a once in a lifetime warranty...

    No other way, everyone is effected by this....

    Yeah but who’s buying the bonds? Who has the money to do that?


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    #191
    diggerdigger
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭diggerdigger


    tom1ie wrote: »
    So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
    So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
    As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
    That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
    If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
    I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
    Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

    The bonds are issued with ECB backing ,at lower rates than some countries can borrow at. ECB backing make it a safer bet.There is huge walls of cash that have been taken out of the markets, due to panic sell off.

    Ireland will not borrow, as we can get this money cheaper on the regular market. at least for now.

    Coupled with the ECB quantitative easing (actual buying of bonds with newly created money), incentivises markets to use cash, and that creates economic activity, but ultimately asset price inflation.

    All of this is printing money in some form.

    But the real question about coronabonds, is that now are we really seeing central EU bonds(in everything but name), rather than countries of the EU issuing euro bonds. This changes what the EU is. Dramatically.


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    #192
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    storker wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Credentials_are_irrelevant


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    #193
    Podge201
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭Podge201


    Fair play to China for selling us millions more in ppe.


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    #194
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,127 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    diggerdigger wrote: »
    The bonds are issued with ECB backing ,at lower rates than some countries can borrow at. ECB backing make it a safer bet.There is huge walls of cash that have been taken out of the markets, due to panic sell off.

    Ireland will not borrow, as we can get this money cheaper on the regular market. at least for now.

    Coupled with the ECB quantitative easing (actual buying of bonds with newly created money), incentivises markets to use cash, and that creates economic activity, but ultimately asset price inflation.

    All of this is printing money in some form.

    But the real question about coronabonds, is that now are we really seeing central EU bonds(in everything but name), rather than countries of the EU issuing euro bonds. This changes what the EU is. Dramatically.

    Ok thanks for that. That makes things a bit easier to understand.
    So basically there are large company, pension funds etc that have pulled their money out of the markets and they will now use that money to buy up these eco bonds as the eco bonds are guaranteed growth backed by the Eu. Is that what’s happening?

    Also why do things change drastically now? Is it because the Eu is moving more towards a federal state by issuing these corona bonds? More like USA?


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    #195
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    We'll need to massacre the bourgeoisie and seize the means of production.


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    #196
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    tom1ie wrote: »
    So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
    So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
    As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
    That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
    If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
    I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
    Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

    Other governments, institutional investors looking for safe place to put their cash.

    I think Ireland is one of the top holders of US government debt for instance, up there with the UK but behind countries like Japan and China.

    A lot of US federal debt is held by individual states as well.


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    #197
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    How can more taxation help us in this crisis? I just don't see it.

    Taxing an already crippled economy willl only weaken it further while the super rich are guaranteed their bonds.

    The amount we could raise would be nothing compared to what we need.

    We need to print and spend, stealth tax of the super rich if you will.


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    #198
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,127 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Other governments, institutional investors looking for safe place to put their cash.

    I think Ireland is one of the top holders of US government debt for instance, up there with the UK but behind countries like Japan and China.

    A lot of US federal debt is held by individual states as well.

    But this is a global pandemic so how does any government have any money to invest in bonds?
    I would’ve thought all their cash would have been used up battling covid.


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    #199
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    The Bishop Basher wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    I pay separately towards our school, I will pay separately towards university, I pay again when I go to hospital, or the GP, dentist etc. I pay motor tax to use the roads along with tax on diesel and I pay tolls on motorways. I also pay for any power I use. I pay for sanitation through the LPT as over 90% of that In our county goes to fund Irish Water.

    I give well over 50% of everything I earn back to the government in some form or another so try again.

    What do we get in return for our income tax ?

    We get some eejit of a minister for finance telling us how actually getting something for your income tax is "" unsustainable "" (buzzword of the century) and you need to pay them some arbitrary amount every year to live in the house you supposedly own


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    #200
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Podge201 wrote: »
    Fair play to China for selling us millions more in ppe.

    Looks like they have a second dose of corona developing


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    #201
    Podge201
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭Podge201


    Ubbquittious wrote: »
    Looks like they have a second dose of corona developing

    Corona 20?


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    #202
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    tom1ie wrote: »
    But this is a global pandemic so how does any government have any money to invest in bonds?
    I would’ve thought all their cash would have been used up battling covid.

    From mid January to Mid March (not sure about now) The market lost about 1/3 of it's value. From my understanding this means a lot of people sold up and liquified their assets meaning they have cash but are uncertain of where to invest it.


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    #203
    diggerdigger
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭diggerdigger


    tom1ie wrote: »
    But this is a global pandemic so how does any government have any money to invest in bonds?
    I would’ve thought all their cash would have been used up battling covid.

    Governments are just participants in the money system, same as everyone. Ireland raised 6b last week, and has to put it somewhere till it spends it. It had bids of 30b+ so that's an indicator of the demand for government bonds. Bond demand comes from all aspects of the market, govt, funds, pensions funds, corporates, individuals, banks, etc.

    Governments, and everyone else in the market needs to have a runway of cash or cash similar, even at the best of times.


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    #204
    all about the mane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭all about the mane


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    Add it to the pile. Sure the Us is trillions in debt yet they plow on no problem. Trump and those before him had no issue lowering taxes. National debt doesn't seem to worry America.

    They have a point. none of this 'debt' i sever going to be paid back. They just realised it first.


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    #205
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    tom1ie wrote: »
    So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
    So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
    As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
    That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
    If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
    I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
    Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

    The EU plan is 500bn approx.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/0409/1129708-covid-19-plan/

    (1) The EU's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism will make €240 billion available in emergency credit lines. The money should go towards health spending and the facility will come to an end when the crisis is over.

    This is loans to countries, with light conditions attached.

    (2) The European Investment Bank will make €25 billion available, leveraged to up to €200 billion, for the corporate sector, which has faced a sudden economic slump.

    This is loans from the EU bank, the EIB, to companies.


    (3) A further €100bn will be made available by the European Commission to help companies retain workers so that exporters can rebound once the pandemic passes.

    These loans are for work/wage subsidy schemes.


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    #206
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    tom1ie wrote: »
    So sorry if I’m being a bit simplistic about this but I’m don’t really understand this.
    So as I understand this the Eu is putting together a 500 billion bailout package for individual country’s to draw down on.
    As I understand it this is in the form of bonds so that are guaranteed by the Eu.
    That means people or company’s or whoever have to buy the bonds so that the 500 billion is raised.
    If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
    I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
    Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

    The EU's fund is known as the ESM.

    https://www.esm.europa.eu/about-us/intro

    The ESM has a very, very strong credit rating.

    It borrows on financial markets.

    It lends on to member states that borrow from the ESM, with conditions attached to the loans.


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    #207
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Yeah but who’s buying the bonds? Who has the money to do that?

    Savers, credit unions, pension funds, etc.


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    #208
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    diggerdigger wrote: »
    The bonds are issued with ECB backing ,at lower rates than some countries can borrow at. ECB backing make it a safer bet.There is huge walls of cash that have been taken out of the markets, due to panic sell off.

    Please note that ESM bonds are not "backed by the ECB".

    https://www.esm.europa.eu/investors/esm/funding-strategy


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    #209
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    tom1ie wrote: »
    If that’s the case who has the money to buy the bonds?
    I suppose it’s the same question for the USA. They are raising 1 trillion via bonds. So who is buying the bonds to raise the cash??
    Sorry if I’m completely wrong but I’d like to be educated on this.

    Our private pension funds, and semi-state banks)))
    No worries, if they've made a bad choice, we will bail them out via tax money!


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    #210
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,127 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Geuze wrote: »
    The EU plan is 500bn approx.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2020/0409/1129708-covid-19-plan/

    (1) The EU's bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism will make €240 billion available in emergency credit lines. The money should go towards health spending and the facility will come to an end when the crisis is over.

    This is loans to countries, with light conditions attached.

    (2) The European Investment Bank will make €25 billion available, leveraged to up to €200 billion, for the corporate sector, which has faced a sudden economic slump.

    This is loans from the EU bank, the EIB, to companies.


    (3) A further €100bn will be made available by the European Commission to help companies retain workers so that exporters can rebound once the pandemic passes.

    These loans are for work/wage subsidy schemes.

    No I understand that. That’s grand. But where has this 500bn come from.
    Is it liquified assets like another poster has said or is it that the ecb is now just printing more and more money.
    If so does that not just devalue the euro?


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    #211
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,127 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Geuze wrote: »
    Savers, credit unions, pension funds, etc.

    500billion with in the Eu alone? What about the American bonds of 1trillion. Who’s buying them?


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