Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Interested Observer · 26-11-2019 12:44pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Great interview with Joe Schmidt on off the ball podcast.

All those knee jerk reactor posters should give it a good listen.

I don't want to stick the boot in, he's the best coach we've ever had, but I'm not really convinced by him in this. When talking about the Wales game in the 6N, a game we got absolutely smacked up and down the pitch in, his view is it was a fine margins game, there was one try a piece in it, they built a lead on penalties, and something about the rain. Yeah it was one try a piece, but ours came when we were 25-0 down (twenty-five nil!) and 80+ mins had gone. It's a bizarre way of looking at that match imo. It seems to be the way he looks at a lot of 2019. I think this book and all this media have just come way too soon after the RWC/him leaving the job.

Another one - asked about whether he stayed too loyal to certain players. Responds that NZ did exactly what they expected with their early possession, stuck up a bomb into our 22 so they felt going with experience at the back was the way to go. Fails to mention Kearney and Earls totally fluffed one of those and let it bounce somewhere in between the two of them. Thank god for that experience though eh.

sydthebeat · 26-11-2019 12:45pm

time to bring Jack OD back into the ireland camp as well in my opinion ... a very versatile back row option in the 20 shirt.. and the more of a run he gets without injury the better hes looking

sydthebeat · 26-11-2019 12:59pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't want to stick the boot in, he's the best coach we've ever had, but I'm not really convinced by him in this. When talking about the Wales game in the 6N, a game we got absolutely smacked up and down the pitch in, his view is it was a fine margins game, there was one try a piece in it, they built a lead on penalties, and something about the rain. Yeah it was one try a piece, but ours came when we were 25-0 down (twenty-five nil!) and 80+ mins had gone. It's a bizarre way of looking at that match imo. It seems to be the way he looks at a lot of 2019. I think this book and all this media have just come way too soon after the RWC/him leaving the job.

yeah i agree with that, and i agree his view of the england game was skewed as well.

interesting that thats how he viewed those games.

i just had a quick look and in Joes 1st six nations game in 2014 he started 6 players who started against NZ five and a half years later...
and each of the 6 players were firm established players at the time
POM, Sexton, Murray, Healy, Best and R Kearney.

for all the debut caps he gave out.... did he ever really give enough chances for those players to grow as internationals?
The only ones to demand a jersey immediately were the freaks like Ryan and stander.

aloooof · 26-11-2019 1:05pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

When talking about the Wales game in the 6N, a game we got absolutely smacked up and down the pitch in, his view is it was a fine margins game, there was one try a piece in it, they built a lead on penalties, and something about the rain. Yeah it was one try a piece, but ours came when we were 25-0 down (twenty-five nil!) and 80+ mins had gone. It's a bizarre way of looking at that match imo. It seems to be the way he looks at a lot of 2019. I think this book and all this media have just come way too soon after the RWC/him leaving the job.

sydthebeat wrote: »

yeah i agree with that, and i agree his view of the england game was skewed as well.

interesting that thats how he viewed those games.

My view on this is that I'd be amazed if that is how he actually views those games. It think it's just a case that what he says in public is very different to what he think in private. You don't get to that level without being far more critical than saying "fine margins".

Interested Observer · 26-11-2019 1:07pm

aloooof wrote: »

My view on this is that I'd be amazed if that is how he actually views those games. It think it's just a case that what he says in public is very different to what he think in private. You don't get to that level without being far more critical than saying "fine margins".

He's not the coach anymore. He doesn't need to protect the team or protect himself, if he's not going to be honest then this whole media blitz is completely pointless.

salmocab · 26-11-2019 1:11pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

He's not the coach anymore. He doesn't need to protect the team or protect himself, if he's not going to be honest then this whole media blitz is completely pointless.

He’s certainly not going to be honest in all these interviews, I have listened to none of them as I know he’s not going to say anything controversial as he’s not that sort of character.

kingofthekong · 26-11-2019 1:17pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

time to bring Jack OD back into the ireland camp as well in my opinion ... a very versatile back row option in the 20 shirt.. and the more of a run he gets without injury the better hes looking

Would have Deegan and Doris ahead of him tbh

Backrows Id bring would be VDF, Stander, Ruddock, Jordi, Deegan, Doris

bennyl10 · 26-11-2019 1:20pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I would hope that the new coaches give a clean slate to everyone.
For the 6N I'd like to see a team picked based on form.
It's the start of a new RWC cycle, so age shouldn't matter, whatever players are putting in the best performances in each position should be selected.

Right now I would go with:

1. Healy, 2. Kelleher, 3. Porter,
5. Dillane, 4. Ryan,
6. Ruddock, 8. Deegan, 7. Van der Flier,
9. Cooney, 10. Sexton,
12. McCloskey, 13. Ringrose,
11. Earls, 15. Haley, 14. Conway

16. Scannell, 17. Kilcoyne, 18. Moore, 19. Henderson, 20. Beirne, 21. Blade, 22. Burns, 23. Stockdale.

It will change a lot by February but whoever is playing the best should be rewarded with selection.

CJ, who was our best player at the WC by a distance, drops out of the 23?
insane

aloooof · 26-11-2019 1:24pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

He's not the coach anymore. He doesn't need to protect the team or protect himself, if he's not going to be honest then this whole media blitz is completely pointless.

The only point of the media blitz is solely to sell books, tho. I'm not sure he'd sell all that many more if he had a complete tell-all versus this approach.

And that would be completely out of character for him compared to anything we've seen from him in the past.

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 1:34pm

Joe will sell books without going out and hanging players out to dry

Rugby fans will want to read his book, I certainly do. I wouldn't if he suddenly decided it was better to sell off stories....

He is not finished in rugby, what happens if he throws players under the bus and then he takes up NZ job? are the players going to thrust him

I have no idea why anyone would think a man like Joe is suddenly going to come out and go "see XYZ, he is sh*t isnt he?"

Jump_In_Jack · 26-11-2019 1:40pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

CJ, who was our best player at the WC by a distance, drops out of the 23?
insane

No harm trying other options, if the other options are going well.
Stander has no claim on the jersey, he hasn't been that good.

Granny15 · 26-11-2019 2:36pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I'm dismissing people who have completely failed recently. I mean look we're talking about a squad who failed. how do we change it? its not by dismissing players who are outside of that squad...

VDF has been super yeah. He's a different beast when backed to be a link man and carrier.

All bets have to be off imo, and if McCloskey or Cooney came in and added nothing then yeah look that argument dies. But so far they haven't been given a chance. There's other lads as well. Conway, Ruddock all fall into this subset, but don't have people questioning the veracity of their claims. Maybe because the all seeing Joe trusted them to an extent.

Its a new era. Its a reset i think

The best part of VDF's game is his carrying possibly his tackling. He is an animal of a player although needs to bulk a bit to be top class international. His appetite and workrate are second to none and if Leavy was fit he would be playing second fiddle.

TBH, I think Farrell will go with a cleanout but keep Sexton. I think Kearney is finished although i do think he's Farrell's type of player. I think he will go for the bulkier players like the England team have at the moment. Why? I'm not sure but to compete with England you need size and that has been proven at the world cup.

I think/hope Cooney will be in. Murray box kicks to often and it is predictable and too one dimensional. We need multiple arrows to our bow in attack and that means a wide game. Will we get a wide game with Farrell - I fear not.

Sexton stays until someone emerges capable of international rugby. He is on the downward slope but can still dictate a game.

I think we might see Kelleher come in up front and we will keep Kleyne and Stander. VDF and who knows on the blindside maybe Ruddock. Ryan lacks bulk but has a workrate that keeps him in there - I'm not as convinced by him as most people are I think he lacks bulk to be a top class second row.

Haley, Addisson and Larmour are all prospects at fullback - clear out Kearney and put one of them in they are all around the same level.

stephen_n · 26-11-2019 2:47pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Course, we all know who Andy Farrell needs to call to save Ireland.

We know.

It’s ok we actually have decent tightheads these days, he can stay milking his sheep.

awec · 26-11-2019 3:15pm

I'm near the end of Jamie Heaslip's book (which is not great overall - but more on that later), and a few things I read yesterday stuck with me.

He said that Schmidt is all about planning, structures, doing everything in his prescripted way, you do whatever Schmidt tells you to do and you don't deviate from it, whereas Lancaster is more an architect of chaos, preparing teams for the unexpected, improving skills so that things can happen that don't need to be planned, which is closer to what NZ do and why they score a lot more tries in open play from counter attacks and the likes. He attributed Leinster's recent success to Lancaster's approach.

He said that in his view, Ireland needed to be less rigid in their play, less Schmidt-like, and adopt a philosophy that was more Lancaster-like. The book was obviously pre-World Cup, so it's not a knee jerk based on that, but I do reckon it's only a matter of time before Lancaster is involved in the national side.

Before anyone says "but Lancaster has more time with the players, he can do more", the implication in the book was that Lancaster took training just one day a week at Leinster (a Tuesday).

The other thing he said was that Schmidt avidly reads the media and what they are saying about him, and takes great care with his public image. Unsurprising that his book media tour is just clichés in that case.

Yeah_Right · 26-11-2019 3:17pm

I always find it amusing when people say the the national team should be picked on form. On club form.

What if the player who is in playing great for his club, is absolutely stinking up the place in training for the national side? What if they simply can't implement the game plan the coach wants? Just because they are playing well at club level.

awec · 26-11-2019 3:21pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I always find it amusing when people say the the national team should be picked on form. On club form.

What if the player who is in playing great for his club, is absolutely stinking up the place in training for the national side? What if they simply can't implement the game plan the coach wants? Just because they are playing well at club level.

That's a lot of what ifs.

What if you keep picking players who are out of form, and they continue to be out of form, and the same issues keep popping up, which keeps leading to the same results? Luckily, we don't have to wonder too much about what happens in this case, just take a look at 2019.

Suggesting that form players be picked is not radical, nor hilarious. Nobody is expecting some lad with 3 Pro14 caps who has scored a bunch of tries to be parachuted straight into the team. Nobody is expecting anyone to be dropped after one bad game. But when the guys on the edge of the squad, or even the second choice players, are clearly playing a lot better than the incumbents, maybe it's time to change things up just a teeny bit.

Burkie1203 · 26-11-2019 3:24pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

CJ, who was our best player at the WC by a distance, drops out of the 23?
insane

Was he?

He carried loads but was largely ineffective.

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:26pm

awec wrote: »

I'm near the end of Jamie Heaslip's book (which is not great overall - but more on that later), and a few things I read yesterday stuck with me.

He said that Schmidt is all about planning, structures, doing everything in his prescripted way, you do whatever Schmidt tells you to do and you don't deviate from it, whereas Lancaster is more an architect of chaos, preparing teams for the unexpected, improving skills so that things can happen that don't need to be planned, which is closer to what NZ do and why they score a lot more tries in open play from counter attacks and the likes. He attributed Leinster's recent success to Lancaster's approach.

He said that in his view, Ireland needed to be less rigid in their play, less Schmidt-like, and adopt a philosophy that was more Lancaster-like. The book was obviously pre-World Cup, so it's not a knee jerk based on that, but I do reckon it's only a matter of time before Lancaster is involved in the national side.

Before anyone says "but Lancaster has more time with the players, he can do more", the implication in the book was that Lancaster took training just one day a week at Leinster (a Tuesday).

The other thing he said was that Schmidt avidly reads the media and what they are saying about him, and takes great care with his public image. Unsurprising that his book media tour is just clichés in that case.

I think Heaslip was a great player....

Would I read his book? no
Would anyone I know read his book? no

All coaches read the media. All are concerned about how they are viewed in media.

Do we really need some vague comments in a Heaslip book to have a pop at Joe?

bennyl10 · 26-11-2019 3:26pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Was he?

He carried loads but was largely ineffective.

2nd more tackles, 2nd most turn overs, most runs

Ineffective? facts say different really

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:28pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

2nd more tackles, 2nd most turn overs, most runs

Ineffective? facts say different really

Yes he was ineffective and he was in 6 nations

Not a Stander issue, he is a lone carrier in the back row. Just watch his opening carry v NZ and it tells you all you need to know.

The better teams just lined him up and waited. We need two ball carriers in the back row and I don;t think Stander is an 8.....he played best at 6

Interested Observer · 26-11-2019 3:29pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I always find it amusing when people say the the national team should be picked on form. On club form.

What if the player who is in playing great for his club, is absolutely stinking up the place in training for the national side? What if they simply can't implement the game plan the coach wants? Just because they are playing well at club level.

You think it's common that this massive divergence can/does actually occur?

This argument also falls apart a bit when your team keeps losing, as Ireland did in 2019, imo.

Jump_In_Jack · 26-11-2019 3:30pm

awec wrote: »

That's a lot of what ifs.

What if you keep picking players who are out of form, and they continue to be out of form, and the same issues keep popping up, which keeps leading to the same results? Luckily, we don't have to wonder too much about what happens in this case, just take a look at 2019.

Suggesting that form players be picked is not radical, nor hilarious. Nobody is expecting some lad with 3 Pro14 caps who has scored a bunch of tries to be parachuted straight into the team. Nobody is expecting anyone to be dropped after one bad game. But when the guys on the edge of the squad, or even the second choice players, are clearly playing a lot better than the incumbents, maybe it's time to change things up just a teeny bit.

Rónan Kelleher is impressing though, I would give him a shot IF he continues to impress.
Hooker is a position that is up for grabs right now and he is the form player despite his age.
Look at what Tom Curry has done for England in the past 12 months and he’s younger than Kelleher.

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:32pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Rónan Kelleher is impressing though, I would give him a shot IF he continues to impress.
Hooker is a position that is up for grabs right now and he is the form player despite his age.
Look at what Tom Curry has done for England in the past 12 months and he’s younger than Kelleher.

Another mention of Curry :P

What about Larmour for Leinster and Ireland?

Riskymove · 26-11-2019 3:38pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not a Stander issue,

so he is not in fact ineffectual

he was used ineffectively in the Irish game plan this year

big difference

he remains in form, wins MOM etc. dropping him from the squad is a crazy idea

blaming stander for being the lone ball carrier is about as pointless for blaming players for all the box kicking or not trying offloads

they were simply carrying out instructions

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:42pm

Riskymove wrote: »

so he is not in fact ineffectual

he was used ineffectively in the Irish game plan this year

big difference

he remains in form, wins MOM etc. dropping him from the squad is a crazy idea

blaming stander for being the lone ball carrier is about as pointless for blaming players for all the box kicking or not trying offloads

they were simply carrying out instructions

Did I say to drop Stander? Did I say to drop him from the squad?

Did you read my post before this rant? as I said he was ineffective because he was the lone carrier.

If Ireland line up with Stander, VDF, POM come 6 nations time don't expect anything better than we have got the last 12 months. I did mention this prior to WC and was shot down......

Riskymove · 26-11-2019 3:55pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say to drop Stander? Did I say to drop him from the squad?

......

?? no someone else did

there are a number of people in the discussion right?

I built on what you said and then made wider points aimed at the discussion in general

I am talking to everyone not just you

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:56pm

Riskymove wrote: »

?? no someone else did

there are a number of people in the discussion right?

I built on what you said and then made wider points aimed at the discussion in general

I am talking to everyone not just you

Then don't quote me

Granny15 · 26-11-2019 3:56pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Another mention of Curry :P

What about Larmour for Leinster and Ireland?

I would go further and argue parachuting young players into the national setup as a calculated risk more often than not pays off. Remember Dennis Hickie as a 19 year old? O'Driscoll as a 20 year old? If they are good enough they are old enough and conservatism is an anchor that will drown you.

I think Kelleher is better than the incumbents now that Best is gone and should seriously be looked at to at least sub in one of the 6 Nations games.

irishbucsfan · 26-11-2019 4:09pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

You think it's common that this massive divergence can/does actually occur?

This argument also falls apart a bit when your team keeps losing, as Ireland did in 2019, imo.

Given our top internationals barely play until the internationals themselves are on the horizon I’d be absolutely shocked if there wasnt extremely common and star divergence between the two.

I’ve heard that going into international camp is basically like a giant reset switch for form for a lot of players and guys who are struggling to get going at home often really look forward to that context switch

Faugheen · 26-11-2019 4:12pm

Granny15 wrote: »

The best part of VDF's game is his carrying possibly his tackling. He is an animal of a player although needs to bulk a bit to be top class international. His appetite and workrate are second to none and if Leavy was fit he would be playing second fiddle.

This myth again.

He knocks back lads much bulkier than him on a regular basis and if you get him to bulk up then you risk him losing pace. His pace is what sets him apart from other 7s (including Leavy).

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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