Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Granny15

Faugheen wrote: »

This myth again.

He knocks back lads much bulkier than him on a regular basis and if you get him to bulk up then you risk him losing pace. His pace is what sets him apart from other 7s (including Leavy).

Agreed. TBH I was nitpicking. He got fairly shunted around Vs. NZ tho' in the Aviva and England also - could have used a few extra KG.

As a matter of interest do you prefer small mobile 7's or large ones?

The idea i was getting at is bulking up without losing pace/stamina.

Faugheen

Granny15 wrote: »

Agreed. TBH I was nitpicking. He got fairly shunted around Vs. NZ tho' in the Aviva and England also - could have used a few extra KG.

As a matter of interest do you prefer small mobile 7's or large ones?

The idea i was getting at is bulking up without losing pace/stamina.

He’s not even that small. He weighs as much as Sam Underhill and just 2kgs less than Tom Curry for example.

Seriously, this notion that he’s undersized is a complete myth. It’s one of the laziest attempts to try and discredit him.

b.gud

Faugheen wrote: »

He’s not even that small. He weighs as much as Sam Underhill and just 2kgs less than Tom Curry for example.

Seriously, this notion that he’s undersized is a complete myth. It’s one of the laziest attempts to try and discredit him.

Of course he's small you're just showing your Leinster bias and I can prove it here is a picture of him next to a perfectly averaged sized human being



Now look at that and tell me he's not small

theVersatile

Some interesting takes in this thread.

Throwing Deegan straight into the number eight jersey is absolute madness. I'm not sure if Conan will be back from his injury come 6N time, but even if he isn't Deegan will barely be around the squad. CJs ball carrying is too much of an asset to leave out and I imagine Ruddock will also cover the #8 position in Conan's absence. A third number eight in the squad would be dodgy, I could see Deegan perhaps getting a training role with the squad in the absence of Leave and Conan - but starting him in any of the games would be silly. If such a training role would be available, it would be a straight shoot out between Deegan, and O'Donoghue - perhaps Leach if he reaches an acceptable enough level of fitness to be a bag carrier.

While he's in cracking form, starting Kelleher probably wouldn't be the smartest approach either . There will be plenty preaching "If he's good enough he's old enough" but international experience isn't something to take likely. James Ryan may have jumped into the Irish set up but he was an exception to the rule in a Lion's Tour Year summer tour. I can see him in the squad no doubt but Herring and Scannell are probably arm wrestling for 2 and 16 until Kelleher gets another few months of Pro14 and HEC. You'd never no what the story is with Cronin.

Scrumhalf is an interesting debate. Given how crucial Murray's tactical kicking was to Ireland in Joe's time, he'll be kept for now. Even if Farrell wants Ireland to play Kiwi rugby, he won't be able to implement it straight away. He'll have to gradually introduce it over the course of maybe a year or so - and the kicking game will likely still be a key aspect of the Irish gameplan. I'd keep Murray at 9 initially regardless of his speed at ruck time, although if Farrell does want to move to a more expansive game plan long term, I can see Cooney stepping in unless Murray speeds himself up. I feel "excitedness" and "snappiness" are overrated aspects of nines - playing fast looks lovely but sometimes patience is required roo. It doesn't that Munster and Irish gameplans of before have probably contributed to Murray's slow play - since he can play fast when he wants to.

I'd suggest something along the lines of:

Healy
Herring/Scannell
Furlong
Ryan
Hendo
CJ
JVDF
Conan (if fit)
Murray
Sexton
Earl's
Henshaw/Bundee
Ringtone/Farrell
Conway
Larmour (interchangeable with Conway)

Shefwedfan

theVersatile wrote: »

Some interesting takes in this thread.

Throwing Deegan straight into the number eight jersey is absolute madness. I'm not sure if Conan will be back from his injury come 6N time, but even if he isn't Deegan will barely be around the squad. CJs ball carrying is too much of an asset to leave out and I imagine Ruddock will also cover the #8 position in Conan's absence. A third number eight in the squad would be dodgy, I could see Deegan perhaps getting a training role with the squad in the absence of Leave and Conan - but starting him in any of the games would be silly. If such a training role would be available, it would be a straight shoot out between Deegan, and O'Donoghue - perhaps Leach if he reaches an acceptable enough level of fitness to be a bag carrier.

While he's in cracking form, starting Kelleher probably wouldn't be the smartest approach either . There will be plenty preaching "If he's good enough he's old enough" but international experience isn't something to take likely. James Ryan may have jumped into the Irish set up but he was an exception to the rule in a Lion's Tour Year summer tour. I can see him in the squad no doubt but Herring and Scannell are probably arm wrestling for 2 and 16 until Kelleher gets another few months of Pro14 and HEC. You'd never no what the story is with Cronin.

Scrumhalf is an interesting debate. Given how crucial Murray's tactical kicking was to Ireland in Joe's time, he'll be kept for now. Even if Farrell wants Ireland to play Kiwi rugby, he won't be able to implement it straight away. He'll have to gradually introduce it over the course of maybe a year or so - and the kicking game will likely still be a key aspect of the Irish gameplan. I'd keep Murray at 9 initially regardless of his speed at ruck time, although if Farrell does want to move to a more expansive game plan long term, I can see Cooney stepping in unless Murray speeds himself up. I feel "excitedness" and "snappiness" are overrated aspects of nines - playing fast looks lovely but sometimes patience is required roo. It doesn't that Munster and Irish gameplans of before have probably contributed to Murray's slow play - since he can play fast when he wants to.

I'd suggest something along the lines of:

Healy
Herring/Scannell
Furlong
Ryan
Hendo
CJ
JVDF
Conan (if fit)
Murray
Sexton
Earl's
Henshaw/Binder
Ringtone/Farrell
Conway
Larmour (interchangeable with Conway)

Conan is out
After that I disagree with all your points


Your team

Conway at 15??


What is a Binder?

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think Heaslip was a great player....


Would I read his book? no
Would anyone I know read his book? no


All coaches read the media. All are concerned about how they are viewed in media.



Do we really need some vague comments in a Heaslip book to have a pop at Joe?

Heaslip’s views are better informed than any on here so certainly worth posting. Particularly interesting that it was written pre WC so he can’t be accused of jumping on bandwagon.

theVersatile

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Conan is out
After that I disagree with all your points


Your team

Conway at 15??


What is a Binder?

Ofcourse you do. (-_-)

Bundee autocorrected to Binder. Corrected now.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

Heaslip’s views are better informed than any on here so certainly worth posting. Particularly interesting that it was written pre WC so he can’t be accused of jumping on bandwagon.

Heaslip had 6 months training with Lancaster and had 7 years with Joe....


Lancaster was new and something different for a very short period.



I would read the book myself before making any judgements. It seems a certain group of people will read the negative in regards to Joe on anything written.....



The Lancaster trains one day a week with the Leinster squad, would like to see a source for that. As he is the head coach and is supposed to do all the work it is all the more impressive of the Leinster players if they can get everything done in one training session

awec

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Heaslip had 6 months training with Lancaster and had 7 years with Joe....


Lancaster was new and something different for a very short period.


I would read the book myself before making any judgements. It seems a certain group of people will read the negative in regards to Joe on anything written.....



The Lancaster trains one day a week with the Leinster squad, would like to see a source for that. As he is the head coach and is supposed to do all the work it is all the more impressive of the Leinster players if they can get everything done in one training session

The source was Jamie Heaslip, played a few times for Leinster, captain for a bit, maybe you’ve heard of him?

My post wasn’t a dig at Schmidt, just iterating what a former captain of Schmidt said in his book about him, you’re just being overly precious about it.

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

The source was Jamie Heaslip, played a few times for Leinster, captain for a bit, maybe you’ve heard of him?

My post wasn’t a dig at Schmidt, just iterating what a former captain of Schmidt said in his book about him, you’re just being overly precious about it.

Not been overly precious at all....just seen a lot of cr*p twisted on here to suit someone's view point.....

Wasn't too long ago Jamie mentioned this: https://extra.ie/2018/03/28/sport/rugby/heaslip-coach-lancaster

‘I put him up there with [Ireland Grand-Slam winning coach] Joe Schmidt in terms of best coaches I have ever worked for.


So Jamie Heaslip mentions in his book that Lancaster only takes 1 training session per week with the Leinster squad?

Yeah_Right

awec wrote: »

That's a lot of what ifs.

What if you keep picking players who are out of form, and they continue to be out of form, and the same issues keep popping up, which keeps leading to the same results? Luckily, we don't have to wonder too much about what happens in this case, just take a look at 2019.

Suggesting that form players be picked is not radical, nor hilarious. Nobody is expecting some lad with 3 Pro14 caps who has scored a bunch of tries to be parachuted straight into the team. Nobody is expecting anyone to be dropped after one bad game. But when the guys on the edge of the squad, or even the second choice players, are clearly playing a lot better than the incumbents, maybe it's time to change things up just a teeny bit.

Sorry I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. Players in good form at club level should get called up to the squad. I don't think they should automatically go into the starting line up. It depends on how they perform at the camp, which is something we will never know.

Established international players who are out of form at club level should probably still get a place in the squad depending on their credit in the bank and how long they have been out of form. If their poor form continues, then they should be cut.

awec

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not been overly precious at all....just seen a lot of cr*p twisted on here to suit someone's view point.....

Wasn't too long ago Jamie mentioned this: https://extra.ie/2018/03/28/sport/rugby/heaslip-coach-lancaster

‘I put him up there with [Ireland Grand-Slam winning coach] Joe Schmidt in terms of best coaches I have ever worked for.


So Jamie Heaslip mentions in his book that Lancaster only takes 1 training session per week with the Leinster squad?

Yes, he even says the Leinster players call it "stuesday".

Yes, Jamie Heaslip also said Schmidt is the best coach he has ever worked with, which doesn't deflect from or diminish anything I posted at all. Again, you are being overly precious. If all you're looking for is endless posts that say "Joe Schmidt is great" then what you're after is an echo chamber, not a discussion forum.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Yes, he even says the Leinster players call it "stuesday".

Yes, Jamie Heaslip also said Schmidt is the best coach he has ever worked with, which doesn't deflect from or diminish anything I posted at all. Again, you are being overly precious. If all you're looking for is endless posts that say "Joe Schmidt is great" then what you're after is an echo chamber, not a discussion forum.

I wouldn't be surprised at that training regime at all. Leinster have a fair few coaches. And not that many full training days between matches. Iirc, Monday is review of the last match in the morning and recovery/fitness sessions, Tuesday is the first full training session, Wednesday is a half day, Thursday another full day and Friday is off.

ionadnapokot

theVersatile wrote: »

Some interesting takes in this thread.

Throwing Deegan straight into the number eight jersey is absolute madness. I'm not sure if Conan will be back from his injury come 6N time, but even if he isn't Deegan will barely be around the squad. CJs ball carrying is too much of an asset to leave out and I imagine Ruddock will also cover the #8 position in Conan's absence. A third number eight in the squad would be dodgy, I could see Deegan perhaps getting a training role with the squad in the absence of Leave and Conan - but starting him in any of the games would be silly. If such a training role would be available, it would be a straight shoot out between Deegan, and O'Donoghue - perhaps Leach if he reaches an acceptable enough level of fitness to be a bag carrier.



I'd suggest something along the lines of:

Healy
Herring/Scannell
Furlong
Ryan
Hendo
CJ
JVDF
Conan (if fit)
Murray
Sexton
Earl's
Henshaw/Bundee
Ringtone/Farrell
Conway
Larmour (interchangeable with Conway)

Think Dorris is a better player than Deegan. Will be very interesting to see how they both develop with Conan out.
CJ should start at no.8 for 6N.

Marmion would be my choice at 9. Again it will be an interesting battle between him and Blade in Connacht.

And I would be one for putting Kelleher straight in at 2.

Sexton - I would give serious consideration to benching Sexton over the course of the 6N - IF Carbery is back and has played 4 or 5 games for Munster before 1st Feb.

AbusesToilets

I don't want to see Stander start until he learns how to do something other than run directly into the nearest defender. He offers little to nothing as an international 8 at the moment. His lack of passing ability is a huge deficiency and has been persistent for years. Conan is streets ahead of him in terms of attacking ability and ball skills, and the newer players coming through, such as Deegan and Doris, are likely better again.

Dubinusa

If Murray doesn't improve he should be left at Munster!
We have seen what the other lads are doing on the pitch and they are doing very well. For me, Cooney is the starter right now. His try last week was brilliant. He see's opportunities and takes them. Why continue flogging a dead horse? Murray was way below the standard required all year. He was crap in the 6nations. Cooney is also a very good place kicker. Besides Cooney, Blade is playing great and we know Marmion is good enough.
Carberry may not be the answer at 10. I haven't seen enough control from him to be our 10. I think Carty could be if given the chance. RB is also a very good player and then we have Burns.
Conan is out, so Stander will be at 8 for the 6nations. The summer tour is an ideal time to blood Deegan or Doris. I reckon both of them can do well for us and in 4 years time Stander probably won't even be in the squad.
I think Scannell is in pole position for the 2 shirt. Herring for the 16, but if Kelleher continues his form, I think he will get capped off the bench during the 6nations.
Kleyn is falling further down the pecking order for me. I think Dillane and Roux are back in the mix.
But, it's all speculation atm.

Burkie1203

bennyl10 wrote: »

2nd more tackles, 2nd most turn overs, most runs

Ineffective? facts say different really

Runs/carries the same thing?

His carries were by and large ineffective producing slow ruck ball time and again. He is very easy for opponents to cover off and the argument that gets pushed forward about how it takes 2 or 3 of the opposition out of action and creates space is nonsense. Space is no good if the opposition have time to align defensively.

The facts show that he worked hard. Nothing more, nothing less. The very first carry v NZ and he got turned over quite easily. Summed up his international performances in 2019 in a nutshell.

Compare his performance to Read or Savea (he picked off the base at a scrum and made 15m at one point).

Burkie1203

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So Jamie Heaslip mentions in his book that Lancaster only takes 1 training session per week with the Leinster squad?

There is also a 2 month pre season. The entire set up around a club side is very different to the national team.

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

Yes, he even says the Leinster players call it "stuesday".

Yes, Jamie Heaslip also said Schmidt is the best coach he has ever worked with, which doesn't deflect from or diminish anything I posted at all. Again, you are being overly precious. If all you're looking for is endless posts that say "Joe Schmidt is great" then what you're after is an echo chamber, not a discussion forum.

Did I ask for "Joe is great".....let's have a quick look at your first post

awec wrote: »

which is closer to what NZ do and why they score a lot more tries in open play from counter attacks and the likes. He attributed Leinster's recent success to Lancaster's approach.

He said that in his view, Ireland needed to be less rigid in their play, less Schmidt-like, and adopt a philosophy that was more Lancaster-like.........


The book was obviously pre-World Cup, so it's not a knee jerk based on that, but I do reckon it's only a matter of time before Lancaster is involved in the national side.


The other thing he said was that Schmidt avidly reads the media and what they are saying about him, and takes great care with his public image. Unsurprising that his book media tour is just clichés in that case.

The tone of the post is Heaslip is been critical of Joe.....No mention of Heaslip saying Joe is one of best coach's he has worked under.....

Squidgy Black

Source on the Stuesdays.

https://youtu.be/up6I3bnsdDw

Granny15

Dubinusa wrote: »

If Murray doesn't improve he should be left at Munster!
We have seen what the other lads are doing on the pitch and they are doing very well. For me, Cooney is the starter right now. His try last week was brilliant. He see's opportunities and takes them. Why continue flogging a dead horse? Murray was way below the standard required all year. He was crap in the 6nations. Cooney is also a very good place kicker. Besides Cooney, Blade is playing great and we know Marmion is good enough.
Carberry may not be the answer at 10. I haven't seen enough control from him to be our 10. I think Carty could be if given the chance. RB is also a very good player and then we have Burns.
Conan is out, so Stander will be at 8 for the 6nations. The summer tour is an ideal time to blood Deegan or Doris. I reckon both of them can do well for us and in 4 years time Stander probably won't even be in the squad.
I think Scannell is in pole position for the 2 shirt. Herring for the 16, but if Kelleher continues his form, I think he will get capped off the bench during the 6nations.
Kleyn is falling further down the pecking order for me. I think Dillane and Roux are back in the mix.
But, it's all speculation atm.

I would also be an advocate of putting more Connacht players in the team. I would like to see Tom Farrell given a run out. And perhaps either Dillane or Roux a chance depending on how Kleyn is playing. As well as he's playing I think Ryan is a bit wirey to be top class.

Shefwedfan

Granny15 wrote: »

I would also be an advocate of putting more Connacht players in the team. I would like to see Tom Farrell given a run out. And perhaps either Dillane or Roux a chance depending on how Kleyn is playing. As well as he's playing I think Ryan is a bit wirey to be top class.

At this rate come 6 nations people will want the entire Connacht team to start for Ireland.....don't like what those Ulster lads are up to???


One of the few players in the Irish team would could be put into the WC bracket and people think he is "a bit wirey" :P:P

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't want to see Stander start until he learns how to do something other than run directly into the nearest defender. He offers little to nothing as an international 8 at the moment. His lack of passing ability is a huge deficiency and has been persistent for years. Conan is streets ahead of him in terms of attacking ability and ball skills, and the newer players coming through, such as Deegan and Doris, are likely better again.

I think this completely overlooks his ability defensively, both on the ground and in the tackle, as well we his carrying.

In any case it'll be interesting to see how he adapts to Larkham's influence at club level; he had 2 offloads on Saturday, for example.

kingofthekong

Anyone who watches ireland underage rugby realises that Doris is the next high quality 8 to wear the Irish jersey, very good player hopefully he gets a run in Europe this year after his head knock

Clegg

kingofthekong wrote: »

Anyone who watches ireland underage rugby realises that Doris is the next high quality 8 to wear the Irish jersey, very good player hopefully he gets a run in Europe this year after his head knock

I don't think that's certain at all. Deegan has been in good form since getting the 8 jersey back. And wrt U20's performances surely that would make Deegan the anointed one? World Rugby U20's player of the year and all that.

kingofthekong

Clegg wrote: »

I don't think that's certain at all. Deegan has been in good form since getting the 8 jersey back. And wrt U20's performances surely that would make Deegan the anointed one? World Rugby U20's player of the year and all that.

Again anyone who watches underage rugby will know Doris has the best chance of being the next Irish 8.....Deegan can absoltely be there aswell but maybe at 6.

As a ball carrier Doris is the one

stephen_n

I think your man Hodnett will have some say in that matter. It’s all shiny new toy stuff till they are playing regularly in the HEC. Stander will remain first choice in the short term. If Conan gets fit for any length of time he might unseat him or shove him sideways to 6. It will be another few years before Deegan or Doris are starting 6N games barring injuries.

Dubinusa

It could be a few years but the onus is on Deegan and Doris to stake a claim while Conan is out. The 2 lads may develop a rivalry like the Healy/Jack only a short time ago. They both may become better than both Stander and Conan.
I reckon one of them will be capped within a year. I believe it will be Deegan.. They both have the potential to be special.

Granny15

Deegan isn't as good technically as Doris. I can't remember the last ruck he hit straight on with a shoulder. Most of the clearouts he does are hit in side-on forearm/bicep wrap/hit. How long does it take a young player to learn hit straight on and go through the gate and not hit sideways leading with the side of your torso. It's bad technical coaching he has learnt.

I would also say his handling leaves a lot to be desired and he can be lazy at times waiting out on the wing for a ball down the tramlines. In a game like Lyon you aren't going to get that and the forwards need all the help they can get in tight exchanges. He has a tendancy to MIA in these exchanges.

Finally, his ball handling skills are poor. I can't remember how many times he has knocked on or fumbled a pass to him. A guy of his athletic ability should be able to pick up a ball off his bootlaces if he gets a bad pass. I put it down to mentality - confidence or laziness.