Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Burkie1203

Granny15 wrote: »

Deegan isn't as good technically as Doris. I can't remember the last ruck he hit straight on with a shoulder. Most of the clearouts he does are hit in side-on forearm/bicep wrap/hit. How long does it take a young player to learn hit straight on and go through the gate and not hit sideways leading with the side of your torso. It's bad technical coaching he has learnt.

I would also say his handling leaves a lot to be desired and he can be lazy at times waiting out on the wing for a ball down the tramlines. In a game like Lyon you aren't going to get that and the forwards need all the help they can get in tight exchanges. He has a tendancy to MIA in these exchanges.

If one player goes through the gate it's very hard for a second person to clearout. Leinster have been very clearly going to 2 or 3 men clearout so I think it's how they are asked to play.

MIA comment is BS. Hasn't been the case for 15 months now

Clegg

Deegan probably has the best handling skills of any Leinster forward too. Deegan's contribution in the tight against Benneton and Lyon was notable too.

Interested Observer

Granny15 wrote: »

Deegan isn't as good technically as Doris. I can't remember the last ruck he hit straight on with a shoulder. Most of the clearouts he does are hit in side-on forearm/bicep wrap/hit. How long does it take a young player to learn hit straight on and go through the gate and not hit sideways leading with the side of your torso. It's bad technical coaching he has learnt.

I would also say his handling leaves a lot to be desired and he can be lazy at times waiting out on the wing for a ball down the tramlines. In a game like Lyon you aren't going to get that and the forwards need all the help they can get in tight exchanges. He has a tendancy to MIA in these exchanges.

Finally, his ball handling skills are poor. I can't remember how many times he has knocked on or fumbled a pass to him. A guy of his athletic ability should be able to pick up a ball off his bootlaces if he gets a bad pass. I put it down to mentality - confidence or laziness.

This post is just about the biggest crock of **** to be quite honest. On him going MIA - the match against Lyon was a largely forward dominated defensive effort and he made the second most tackles in the game after VdF. How did he manage that if he was hanging out on the wing?

And his ball handling skills are poor? This is one of those things I read where I am just baffled.

Shefwedfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

This post is just about the biggest crock of **** to be quite honest. On him going MIA - the match against Lyon was a largely forward dominated defensive effort and he made the second most tackles in the game after VdF. How did he manage that if he was hanging out on the wing?

And his ball handling skills are poor? This is one of those things I read where I am just baffled.

Some people have favorites and it looks like Granny has one in Doris, or is related to him :P

Niallof9

People forgetting O'Sullivan as well. A serious talent

but it matters not, CJ on his central contract and different standards due to said status won't be dropped for any of these lads.

What a shame. Was a fan of CJ but he's just not performing well enough. He carries alot but its mostly ineffective. Again maybe its the schmidt factor. We know he can run in tries from the 22 etc, like Jamie could but it was stifled.

He's not big enough to be a huge carrier and like many of the Irish forwards leaves his footwork in the locker. Again until Andy takes over its hard to judge. we know the stuesday factor etc. Its pretty much official how Joe stifled the lads. Both Kearney and Ross on record at least talking about how he likes the ruck setup etc.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

People forgetting O'Sullivan as well. A serious talent

but it matters not, CJ on his central contract and different standards due to said status won't be dropped for any of these lads.

You've been given 2 examples of lads on central contracts who were dropped / not-selected and you still persist with this nonsense. It's just not true.

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I ask for "Joe is great".....let's have a quick look at your first post




The tone of the post is Heaslip is been critical of Joe.....No mention of Heaslip saying Joe is one of best coach's he has worked under.....

It’s possible to both appreciate the abilities of someone and recognise flaws as Heaslip seemingly does in the book. It doesn’t have to be one sided fandom.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

You've been given 2 examples of lads on central contracts who were dropped / not-selected and you still persist with this nonsense. It's just not true.

it protects him somewhat. its nonsense to suggest otherwise. I'm not saying he's undroppable. But it gives him exalted status. Doris, Deegan, JOS have to "prove" themselves, yet how do they do that when only one lad, the incumbent is on 500k and centralyl contracted, thereby granting him better sponsorship access etc. I mean why would they only have 11 deals if this wasn't the case. we are seeing the same with Aki now.

Toner was explained by Joe and was injured/not good enough. Jack was in limbo because of the resurgence of Healy and the rareness of his position.

anyhoo lets not go there.

Stander should be at 6 imo.

Granny15

Interested Observer wrote: »

This post is just about the biggest crock of **** to be quite honest. On him going MIA - the match against Lyon was a largely forward dominated defensive effort and he made the second most tackles in the game after VdF. How did he manage that if he was hanging out on the wing?

And his ball handling skills are poor? This is one of those things I read where I am just baffled.

I didn't say he was waiting on the tramlines in this game but in his overall games since he started at Leinster. He has trimmed that habit down and got stuck in more often towards the end of last season and and this season.

Second highest tackle count in a game of this kind is an achievement he can be proud. Someone of his athletic ability should be leading the tackle stats.

He certainly fumbled at least 2 passes on Saturday when put under pressure in attack. As I said whether that is confidence or laziness I am not certain but he lost concentration at least a couple of times.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

I'm not saying he's undroppable.

That's pretty much exactly what you said:

Niallof9 wrote: »

CJ on his central contract and different standards due to said status won't be dropped

Niallof9 wrote: »

Doris, Deegan, JOS have to "prove" themselves, yet how do they do that when only one lad, the incumbent is on 500k.

They play well enough at club level to get called up to Irish camp. Then they outperform him in training.

Coaches are under far too much pressure for results for them to consider a players salary as a reason for selection.

sydthebeat

playing well gets you into the ireland training camp... playing well in camp gets you onto the match day squad...

its not rocket science.

there has been plenty of examples throughout the years of players who were good club level players but couldnt make the step up to test level.

Squidgy Black

So we've gone from NIQ players holding young lads back to now it being centrally contracted players holding them back.

aloooof

Squidgy Black wrote: »

So we've gone from NIQ players holding young lads back to now it being centrally contracted players holding them back.

And meanwhile we haven't even had an Andy Farrell squad announcement yet.

Niallof9

Niallof9 wrote: »

it protects him somewhat. its nonsense to suggest otherwise. I'm not saying he's undroppable. But it gives him exalted status. Doris, Deegan, JOS have to "prove" themselves, yet how do they do that when only one lad, the incumbent is on 500k and centralyl contracted, thereby granting him better sponsorship access etc. I mean why would they only have 11 deals if this wasn't the case. we are seeing the same with Aki now.

Toner was explained by Joe and was injured/not good enough. Jack was in limbo because of the resurgence of Healy and the rareness of his position.

anyhoo lets not go there.

Stander should be at 6 imo.

Yes let's not go there. Stop bringing it up. It's complete nonsense that a centrally contracted player has some kind of clause that gets him picked more than others. You admitted yourself in the past that it's highly unlikely. Stop bringing it up ffs

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

And meanwhile we haven't even had an Andy Farrell squad announcement yet.

Just for the crack he should come out.....read out the same 31 players that went to WC and then say nothing......wait till the press lose their sh*t


Watch boards explode......

Then pull out another piece of paper and say "opps wrong one" and then read out the proper squad :P

leakyboots

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't want to see Stander start until he learns how to do something other than run directly into the nearest defender. He offers little to nothing as an international 8 at the moment. His lack of passing ability is a huge deficiency and has been persistent for years. Conan is streets ahead of him in terms of attacking ability and ball skills, and the newer players coming through, such as Deegan and Doris, are likely better again.

Bull. Stander is well able to pass, this routinely gets trotted out. Just because he doesn't sling 15-20 yard passes out to the wing. Used as a latch in one of Ireland's tries.



v Racing - top passer in the pack with 5 (actually passed the same amount of times as Rory Scannell at 12)
v Ospreys - 5 again.



Little or nothing as an international 8... he was one of our best performers in a damp squib of a World Cup.

Niallof9

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes let's not go there. Stop bringing it up. It's complete nonsense that a centrally contracted player has some kind of clause that gets him picked more than others. You admitted yourself in the past that it's highly unlikely. Stop bringing it up ffs

did i say that there? no i didn't

its no more nonsensical than suggesting playing well gets you into the Irish side. its just plainly untrue as we have just seen

now hopefully like 99 per cent of sports teams in the world we will now see form recognised.

But i wouldn't hold my breath we had nonsense like McCloskey and Cooney playing poorly this season...lol

bennyl10

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't want to see Stander start until he learns how to do something other than run directly into the nearest defender. He offers little to nothing as an international 8 at the moment. His lack of passing ability is a huge deficiency and has been persistent for years. Conan is streets ahead of him in terms of attacking ability and ball skills, and the newer players coming through, such as Deegan and Doris, are likely better again.

he was our top tackler at the world cup, and had the second most turn overs.

He does a damn lot more than 'run'

Conan, in his admittedly brief, time in a green shirt hasn't looked all that special.

The fluff about CJ just isn't back up by fact,

Niallof9

Look yeah statistically CJ is in the top 3 eights in World Rugby. There isn't much problem there at all -

Points 5
Tries 1
Metres 284
Runs 171
Defenders Beaten 10
Clean Breaks 1
Passes 47
Try Assists 5

Tackles 129
Tackles Missed 10
Turnovers Won 5
Turnovers Conceded 14
Discipline
Penalties Conceded7
Yellow Cards0
Red Cards0




We have question marks at 9, 2 , back 3 basically.

Everything else is just fluff. Ruddock isn't better than POM and Josh is holding Leavy's jersey warm but playing really well.

I don't think there is any other real change coming.

I'd be happy with Kelleher getting game time, Larmour trusted and Conway. A new 9 given a chance

Faugheen

Niallof9 wrote: »

Look yeah statistically CJ is in the top 3 eights in World Rugby. There isn't much problem there at all -

Points 5
Tries 1
Metres 284
Runs 171
Defenders Beaten 10
Clean Breaks 1
Passes 47
Try Assists 5

Tackles 129
Tackles Missed 10
Turnovers Won 5
Turnovers Conceded 14
Discipline
Penalties Conceded7
Yellow Cards0
Red Cards0




We have question marks at 9, 2 , back 3 basically.

Everything else is just fluff. Ruddock isn't better than POM and Josh is holding Leavy's jersey warm but playing really well.

I don't think there is any other real change coming.

I'd be happy with Kelleher getting game time, Larmour trusted and Conway. A new 9 given a chance

You’re going to be incredibly disappointed when Josh continues at 7. I don’t know why you keep trotting out that line when Leavy won’t be back for another year, if he ever comes back.

Shefwedfan

Niallof9 wrote: »

Look yeah statistically CJ is in the top 3 eights in World Rugby. There isn't much problem there at all -

Points 5
Tries 1
Metres 284
Runs 171
Defenders Beaten 10
Clean Breaks 1
Passes 47
Try Assists 5

Tackles 129
Tackles Missed 10
Turnovers Won 5
Turnovers Conceded 14
Discipline
Penalties Conceded7
Yellow Cards0
Red Cards0




We have question marks at 9, 2 , back 3 basically.

Everything else is just fluff. Ruddock isn't better than POM and Josh is holding Leavy's jersey warm but playing really well.

I don't think there is any other real change coming.

I'd be happy with Kelleher getting game time, Larmour trusted and Conway. A new 9 given a chance

You want to pick on form and then say Ruddock not much better to POM who is in awful form now for over 12 months. Ruddock is one of the form players in Ireland.



Leavy wont be back this season, even if he is he won't be in an Ireland jersey.

leakyboots

Meant to say, CJ isn't a bad shout for captain. Would think it'll one of him, James Ryan (think he'd be my pick, although maybe another couple of years might be better), Sexton and POM.

leakyboots

Murray's (starting) place is under a bit of threat. I thought he was superb against Ospreys (who were gash) but wasn't that great against Racing. Good to have the competition at 9. Still not sure about Luke McGrath, boxkicks from the 22 are brutal which is pretty important at international (or any) level - it'd be Marmion or Cooney for me if it's not going to be Murray starting.

At 2 right now I'd go Scannell and Kellegher in that order. Who knows what'll happen Cronin as someone said, he could be the incumbent.

15 shirt is wide open, if Haley continues his form he might be in with a shout, plenty of competition there with Larmour, possibly Conway and others. I'm not too fussed about who it is along as there is a change.

Still a good bit of rugby to be played, next few rounds of the Heineken and interpros could see guys put their hand up or s&&t the bed.

salmocab

leakyboots wrote: »

Meant to say, CJ isn't a bad shout for captain. Would think it'll one of him, James Ryan (think he'd be my pick, although maybe another couple of years might be better), Sexton and POM.

I think captaincy will go one of two ways either a sort of short term option for a season or two whilst the new setup makes its mark or a long term look at someone like Ryan who already seems to have respect as a player and leader on the pitch. I wouldn’t be worried either way but I think that Farrel knows the players well enough to make a big call early.

Niallof9

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You want to pick on form and then say Ruddock not much better to POM who is in awful form now for over 12 months. Ruddock is one of the form players in Ireland.



Leavy wont be back this season, even if he is he won't be in an Ireland jersey.

Ruddock is the form player. I'm just saying he's not going to really change things for us. And i'm no fan of POM who i think is vastly overrated outside of a red shirt.

leakyboots

Maybe it's just me but I think some Leinster fans overrate Ruddock, he's been around the Ireland team for almost a decade now and has never really nailed a spot down. I find him pretty average at international level

leakyboots

When are Lowe/JGP/Tyler qualified?

Squidgy Black

leakyboots wrote: »

When are Lowe/JGP/Tyler qualified?

Tyler has been qualified since January 2018, JGP was qualified as of August this year. Lowe is October 2020.

stephen_n

leakyboots wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but I think some Leinster fans overrate Ruddock, he's been around the Ireland team for almost a decade now and has never really nailed a spot down. I find him pretty average at international level

His injury profile during international windows has been absolutely horrendous. He’s never had a bad game in green though either, if somewhat limited to measure from. POM in form is the best 6 in the country, problem with that is he’s been out of form more than in. Stander is probably the next best 6, then Ruddock.

Dubinusa

Stander is a good player. So is Conan. They offer different attributes. Stander can trick the ball all day. Conan is better in a an open type of match!
Neither is close to Billy V, or Coetzee, even Read. I think Conan has more upside. Deegan is a different beast. He's quicker and imo, more of a skilled player. Doris is a strong carrying 8. I think Doris would be more of a Schmidt type of player.
I believe Doris could also be a good 6! I think he'd do better than Deegan at 6. I may be wrong.
Anyway, I don't expect massive change. It will be incremental and hopefully well planned. I would expect a new 15, a new 2 and a possible change at 9. Otherwise it should be the status quo, except Marty Moore, who I think will see game time this 6nations.