Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Stop moaning ffs · 11-11-2019 01:27PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Boy B did not get more than boy A

Boy A - Life reviewed after 12 years

Boy B - 15 years - reviewed after 8 years

Well 15 is more than 12. I understand you’re saying he’ll be out earlier but remember he’s appealing the conviction, he will lose that and it’ll backfire when it comes to review as it shows no remorse and unwillingness to take responsibility. That’ll sink all his chances when review rolls around.

Captain_Crash · 11-11-2019 01:44PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Well 15 is more than 12.

Boy A got life, literal life! The review after 12 years is something the media are spinning out of control. All life sentences are reviewed after 12 years....(well the sentence itself inst reviewed, the possibility of release is)

Boy A got the harshest sentence possible in the state.

Stop moaning ffs · 11-11-2019 01:55PM

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Boy A got life, literal life! The review after 12 years is something the media are spinning out of control. All life sentences are reviewed after 12 years....(well the sentence itself inst reviewed, the possibility of release is)

Boy A got the harshest sentence possible in the state.

I know but on here and elsewhere you’d swear he’ll be out next week with full anonymity.

KWAG2019 · 11-11-2019 01:57PM

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Boy A got life, literal life! The review after 12 years is something the media are spinning out of control. All life sentences are reviewed after 12 years....(well the sentence itself inst reviewed, the possibility of release is)

Boy A got the harshest sentence possible in the state.

And the point is that for a lot of people that the problem isn’t judges: it’s the sentencing possibilities open to them.

ohnonotgmail · 11-11-2019 01:59PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

And the point is that for a lot of people that the problem isn’t judges: it’s the sentencing possibilities open to them.

Boy A got the longest possible sentence a judge can give for either adults or children.

Captain_Crash · 11-11-2019 02:03PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Boy A got the longest possible sentence a judge can give for either adults or children.

And to be fair the the judge, they have some discretion with regards to when a review takes place. Normally its between 7 and 12 years and even still he went with the max allowable, 12 years.

Stop moaning ffs · 11-11-2019 02:18PM

Is there anywhere or any kind of way you can read the information and judges conclusions apart from his final judgement/that lead to his final judgement? Or is that stuff protected? Seems like something that would have to be made officially on record

Gadgetman496 · 11-11-2019 02:23PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Well 15 is more than 12. I understand you’re saying he’ll be out earlier but remember he’s appealing the conviction, he will lose that and it’ll backfire when it comes to review as it shows no remorse and unwillingness to take responsibility. That’ll sink all his chances when review rolls around.

You are totally confused regarding the difference between sentence and review.

Sentence for A was Life

Sentence for B was 15 years

Review for A is 12 years

Review for B is 8 years.

No matter how you juggle it, Boy A got the harsher sentence.

ohnonotgmail · 11-11-2019 02:27PM

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

Oberstown sounds like a great aul place.

Each detainee has their own TV which can be used between 9am and 2am the following day.

School classes are from 10am to 3pm.
At 3pm the children have free time for phone calls and video games.
At 4pm activities are scheduled such as cooking, art and swimming.

Meals are chosen by the children from a variety menu.

At weekends they get a fry for breakfast.

I'd say you woiuld be crying for your mammy as soon as you realise you cant walk out the door when you want. Or do much of anything when you want.

Stop moaning ffs · 11-11-2019 02:35PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

You are totally confused regarding the difference between sentence and review.

Sentence for A was Life

Sentence for B was 15 years

Review for A is 12 years

Review for B is 8 years.

No matter how you juggle it, Boy A got the harsher sentence.

Thanks for that. Befuddled after listening to that Newstalk pod on it.

*they go far harder on B and get into his testimony more and address he’s a devious little so n so

reg114 · 11-11-2019 02:54PM

Captain_Crash wrote: »

When I was studying law it was always considered by our lecturers a sure sign that your scraping the bottom of the barrel with your argument when citing US case law haha.

Case law is not the same thing as the US penal system. I do believe their sentencing is far longer for all crimes than it is in Ireland. We have to bring in far tougher sentences including consecutive sentencing here.

reg114 · 11-11-2019 02:58PM

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

Oberstown sounds like a great aul place.

Each detainee has their own TV which can be used between 9am and 2am the following day.

School classes are from 10am to 3pm.
At 3pm the children have free time for phone calls and video games.
At 4pm activities are scheduled such as cooking, art and swimming.

Meals are chosen by the children from a variety menu.

At weekends they get a fry for breakfast.

I would remove all tvs and ban all internet access, video games.
Education is vital as is access to therapy but I would be very keen to fill any downtime with routine and work 7 days a week.
Nutrition is also important, giving children a fry isnt a treat.

Captain_Crash · 11-11-2019 02:59PM

reg114 wrote: »

Case law is not the same thing as the US penal system. I do believe their sentencing is far longer for all crimes than it is in Ireland. We have to bring in far tougher sentences including consecutive sentencing here.

Its rarely if ever used in an argumentative sense here but it developed from the same common law system we have here, which was derived from the Brits. They've just gone their own way and really its not relevant to us.

reg114 · 11-11-2019 02:59PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

The death penalty is illegal in the EU and EU law has supremacy over our legislation. So a referendum would be a waste of time because we can't change the law even if we wanted to.

Unless of course we do an Irexit.

Wasnt aware of this. So a decade inside will cost the tax payer 3 million per inmate. Crazy.

salmocab · 11-11-2019 03:00PM

reg114 wrote: »

Case law is not the same thing as the US penal system. I do believe their sentencing is far longer for all crimes than it is in Ireland. We have to bring in far tougher sentences including consecutive sentencing here.

I’d broadly agree that we need longer sentences for a lot of crimes but the American system is a mess and certainly does very little to keep crime rates down. Violent crimes should be punished much harder here. The life sentence we have can be very long but people get caught up in when they are eligible for release not when they are released.

salmocab · 11-11-2019 03:02PM

reg114 wrote: »

Wasnt aware of this. So a decade inside will cost the tax payer 3 million per inmate. Crazy.

Pretty sure the legal costs in America of executing people is higher than the costs to keep them locked up for life.

banie01 · 11-11-2019 03:19PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

The death penalty is illegal in the EU and EU law has supremacy over our legislation. So a referendum would be a waste of time because we can't change the law even if we wanted to.

Unless of course we do an Irexit.

Isn't it interesting how many posters are advocating the death penalty?
Without considering that we have outlawed it per international treaty obligations, and that it is proven an ineffective sentence in any case?
Even if by some abberation we were to repudiate the treaties, the constitution expressly forbids retrospective application of new laws.

The whole kneejerk to retribution is quite worrying.
That people will agitate for the imposition of the death penalty on children, no matter how heinous their crime is quite an eye opener.

The deserve to be punished, indeed the punishment handed out by the court is one of the strongest that could have been imposed whilst ensuring precedence and sentencing guidelines were followed along with ensuring nothing as spurious as a point of law appeal would be viable.

I would have loved a longer sentence, but the likelihood of anything longer not been overturned on appeal is high.
The court took a very measured approach, it put not just the welfare of Boy A and Boy B high on their list, but also ensured that by allowing their welfare to be considered that the screams from some quarters that we were treating those boys like animals, be drowned out.

One would hope the reviews are carried out competently and that the lack of remorse and acceptance of the verdict by both boys is reflected in the consideration of the reviewing body.

We as a society need to weigh the balance between retribution and rehabilitation.
Is it ok for us as a State to treat those convicted as animals?
If we continue to demonize and abuse them, to dehumanise them.
We do ourselves no good.

We are rushing to blame external factors, porn, schools, parents without reflecting on how our own rhetoric is contributing.

KWAG2019 · 11-11-2019 05:42PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Boy A got the longest possible sentence a judge can give for either adults or children.

Which is the problem. The range open to them needs to be changed.

KWAG2019 · 11-11-2019 05:56PM

It’s interesting to see the discussion here fall into two main areas: the view that has dominated for decades (the Lonergan type view) that its all about rehabilitation and restarting lives and an opposing view that the system needs to be rebalanced in favour of the victim and their loved ones rather than the convicted. I think those who cling to the old way which has still dominated the sentencing in this case have had their day. How easily the entrenched give up is another story.

The whole justice and parole system needs to be re thought.

iamwhoiam · 11-11-2019 06:20PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

It’s interesting to see the discussion here fall into two main areas: the view that has dominated for decades (the Lonergan type view) that its all about rehabilitation and restarting lives and an opposing view that the system needs to be rebalanced in favour of the victim and their loved ones rather than the convicted. I think those who cling to the old way which has still dominated the sentencing in this case have had their day. How easily the entrenched give up is another story.

The whole justice and parole system needs to be re thought.

It would be very interesting to know how victims and victims families feel and which camp they are in . Then they are who matter after all in my opinion

KWAG2019 · 11-11-2019 06:22PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It would be very interesting to know how victims and victims families feel and which camp they are in . Then they are who matter after all in my opinion

Forever isn’t long enough.

iamwhoiam · 11-11-2019 06:24PM

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Forever isn’t long enough.

And I fully understand that sentiment

KWAG2019 · 11-11-2019 06:27PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It would be very interesting to know how victims and victims families feel and which camp they are in . Then they are who matter after all in my opinion

Ok.

KWAG2019 · 11-11-2019 09:40PM

Some context on the imbalance in the Irish system. The same ideology of rehabilitation and focus on the perpetrator leads to an innocent and law abiding man suffering http://https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/man-34-jailed-for-assaulting-and-intimidating-witness-in-road-traffic-case-1.4079790

11-11-2019 10:07PM

CollyFlower wrote: »

In all the pictures I've seen of Ana she looks happy and carefree, I think it's unfair to blame the whole school for the bullying she went through, she would have been in a class with the same students daily, wouldn't she? Were those two boys in the same class as Ana?

Don't underestimate the ability of teenagers to put on a mask for social media purposes.

pinkyeye · 11-11-2019 10:19PM

splinter65 wrote: »

The past was terrible but this is equally terrible. And you have our current government telling us how lucky we are to live in modern progressive loving compassionate Ireland when it’s an even bigger **** hole now then it ever was

And you don't generalise? Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

brendanwalsh · 12-11-2019 12:27AM

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

Pauliedragon · 12-11-2019 12:39AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

So your answer is to punish rapists by raping them? What's the punishment for the rapist who rapes the rapist? And there is nowhere in the states that executes minors. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

ohnonotgmail · 12-11-2019 09:12AM

brendanwalsh wrote: »

If you have a bold dog who bites someone you put them down

These two savages are sub human animals who should be executed

If this was the United States those scumbags would be sodomised until they needed colostomy bags and then suffer a slow painful execution

They need to bring back death penalty in Ireland for murderers

Sometimes
they dont
they wouldn't
we can't and won't.

KWAG2019 · 12-11-2019 10:48AM

Excellent article in IT today by Professor of Psychology in UL. Stating the obvious. I’d add to it the fact that an isolated child was targeted, the mindless obliviousness of teenagers to reality and a view of reality distorted by modern technology and society and the final piece of the jigsaw, the nature of the two convicted criminals and the “mystery” of why Ana died disappears. I can’t link article but someone else might.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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