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Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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    #6692
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    splinter65 wrote: »
    I don’t think a lot of people can grasp the whole picture here.
    I can’t anyway.
    This is now a society where humans don’t have any value or worth just by dint of being humans.
    In order to have a worth now you have to have the mass approval of your peers.
    Ana didn’t meet the criteria by any stretch of the imagination so had no worth to them beyond being an ideal candidate to star in their own real life rape/murder fantasy adventure.


    As if the past was perfect, we locked up thousands of single mothers took their babies and sold them on to the highest bidder. Many institutions where kids ended up had organized institutional sex abuse. We had thousands and thousands locked up in psychiatric hospitals which are now closed that provided a service of hiding kids away that had learning difficulties & autism.


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    #6693
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Yeah, I posted similar at the time of the trial. What the lads did was simply a culmination of years of bullying and dehumanisation by a large number of people. The two boys may be the ones in jail, but there's a hell of a lot more people guilty to one degree or other.

    Absolutely, it was a toxic environment from start to finish. The dehumanisation hasn’t stopped, either. Referring to the perpetrators as ‘Animals’ is a poor attempt to deflect that broader responsibility. Were they ‘Animals’, which of course they are not, they would be part of a much wider herd.

    Neither should we lose sight of the fact that these acts were committed when the boys were just 13 years old. One can only wonder what might have happened, had they been part of a more supportive culture.


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    #6694
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    I'm sure most posters work or have worked in organisations where policy and procedures are how things are done. About the school or schools: I made the point earlier that there are national policies about bullying in place and the problem could well be not individual schools but that the program does not change situations for the better. I'd suggest that the program be reviewed from the perspective of having questions to answer.

    The issue of mobile phones and children needs to be faced: there is a collective failure here, a collective indulgence, a collective refusal to acknowledge damage done, a collective defeatism. Change is needed and change leaders are needed.


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    #6695
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Jamie Bulger's mum has had a life of misery. That's not her choice. The price of having some peace from the bitterness and hatred of her child's killers might well be for all I know to let go of him again and finally. I can see how that letting go is a reminder of worse. It's beyond me. I do think she might have had a better chance to live some sort of other life if the two killers were still behind bars with no chance of ever seeing freedom. Given a choice between their hopes of rehabilitation and delivering justice for Jamie and his mother I would make a different choice to that made by judges, probation services and society which supports them. I would choose to leave them in jail and let the survivor, the mother have some sense of justice and closure. Forever isn't long enough.


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    #6696
    Funnyonion79
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Funnyonion79


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    No, once arrested and charged they were in custody except for Animal A being released into his grandfathers custody over a Christmas period. Grandfather is not from the area or the county as I understand. I understand between the murder and their charging both of these Animals were free & could be seen hanging about the area they live in. Animal B had convinced his parents that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Ana's murder till the Gardai got an admission from him during questioning to his shocked mother that he was at the actual murder location.

    This is actually incorrect. When they were both charged with Ana’s murder, they were initially remanded in custody at Oberstown, but they were both released in August 2018 under extremely strict bail conditions (which were not made public).

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-bail-4193700-Aug2018/%3famp=1

    The bail conditions for Boy A were amended slightly so as to allow him to go to his Grandparents’ house on Christmas Day in the company of his parents and stay overnight there. He was also permitted to go for a short walk on Christmas Day so long as it was not in the Leixlip area.

    Both boys have been free since their bail in August 2018 (albeit under very restrictive terms), until their conviction in June of this year.


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    #6697
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    Emme wrote: »
    Ana and her family were let down by everyone, particularly the staff and students in her school. She was a beautiful child and was blossoming in a way that most of the other girls probably would not. I would say that a lot of the bullying and exclusion from the girls was probably down to jealousy. Students from one of the years above her had asked her to model in a school fashion show.

    Yes she was, and I would argue that the two boys were also let down. If people’s outrage at Ana’s death could be challenged into an effective anti-bullying strategy, maybe some small good could come from this tragedy. I seriously doubt that the boys, who were little more than children, developed into murdering bullies, overnight.

    It is not just in that school that a blind eye is shown to bullying behaviour. I have seen first hand the failure to tackle bullying children, by school authorities. It was only when a teacher was subjected to such behaviour that the problem was, very reluctantly, tackled.

    In some cases the adults in a school are intimidated by the offending children’s parents. In other cases the parents are considered people of influence in the community and no one wants to “take them on”. In both sets of circumstances, there is minimal outside help, to support school personnel considering action.


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    #6698
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Yes she was, and I would argue that the two boys were equally let down.

    Equally?? Really?

    Away with your shíte talk ffs!


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    #6699
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Equally?? Really?

    Away with your shíte talk ffs!

    Ok, a poor choice of words. also let down...


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    #6700
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Are you sure it's him? He usually talks total bollox:D

    Yeah it was him. Very informative


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    #6701
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    Funnyonion79 wrote: »
    This is actually incorrect. When they were both charged with Ana’s murder, they were initially remanded in custody at Oberstown, but they were both released in August 2018 under extremely strict bail conditions (which were not made public).

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-bail-4193700-Aug2018/%3famp=1

    The bail conditions for Boy A were amended slightly so as to allow him to go to his Grandparents’ house on Christmas Day in the company of his parents and stay overnight there. He was also permitted to go for a short walk on Christmas Day so long as it was not in the Leixlip area.

    Both boys have been free since their bail in August 2018 (albeit under very restrictive terms), until their conviction in June of this year.


    That is correct, I had presumed after the refusal of their initial bail hearing hearing by the High court in Aug they were both in custody. I had not realized they had made subsequent bail applic. I also had presumed Animal B applic to be with his grandfather was a bail hearing but it was seeking a variation. I had known both of these beasts had disappeared from the streets on their town following their charging. I know locals found it disconcerting that they were hanging around the streets of their home town following the interval before being charged.


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    #6702
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Yes she was, and I would argue that the two boys were also let down. If people’s outrage at Ana’s death could be challenged into an effective anti-bullying strategy, maybe some small good could come from this tragedy. I seriously doubt that the boys, who were little more than children, developed into murdering bullies, overnight.

    It is not just in that school that a blind eye is shown to bullying behaviour. I have seen first hand the failure to tackle bullying children, by school authorities. It was only when a teacher was subjected to such behaviour that the problem was, very reluctantly, tackled.

    In some cases the adults in a school are intimidated by the offending children’s parents. In other cases the parents are considered people of influence in the community and no one wants to “take them on”. In both sets of circumstances, there is minimal outside help, to support school personnel considering action.




    Ana Kriégel case highlights how schools cope with ‘critical incidents’
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ana-kri%C3%A9gel-case-highlights-how-schools-cope-with-critical-incidents-1.4074857


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    #6703
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Absolutely, it was a toxic environment from start to finish. The dehumanisation hasn’t stopped, either. Referring to the perpetrators as ‘Animals’ is a poor attempt to deflect that broader responsibility. Were they ‘Animals’, which of course they are not, they would be part of a much wider herd.

    Neither should we lose sight of the fact that these acts were committed when the boys were just 13 years old. One can only wonder what might have happened, had they been part of a more supportive culture.




    When I was 13 I never considered the killing of anyone nor do the vast vast majority of 13yr olds. Both came from stable family backgrounds which the courts has confirmed. They lived in a nice area set in a beautiful park & it would seem they had all the trappings of a middle class family. The had TV, & laptops in their own rooms & had got their own smart phones although one of them claims he kept loosing his. I know of loads of kids that grow up in severely disadvantaged areas and none of them go on to commit juvenile murders. What strikes me often of people coming from seriously disadvantaged areas is their sense of community and looking after their own. I do find it hard to think of them as "boys" with the enormity of the crime that they committed with planned deviousness, brutality and savagery. And subsequent to that all the self-serving BS. Their remorse seems to me they got caught. They had no remorse in the immediate aftermath of the murder, both went to school as normal as if the enormous callous crime had being done by someone else.
    I put it down to evil and that evil aligned itself with a whole series of circumstances, such as a vulnerable victim, dehumanizing bullying & their own sexual gratification.


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    #6704
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    As if the past was perfect, we locked up thousands of single mothers took their babies and sold them on to the highest bidder. Many institutions where kids ended up had organized institutional sex abuse. We had thousands and thousands locked up in psychiatric hospitals which are now closed that provided a service of hiding kids away that had learning difficulties & autism.

    The past was terrible but this is equally terrible. And you have our current government telling us how lucky we are to live in modern progressive loving compassionate Ireland when it’s an even bigger **** hole now then it ever was


  • Options
    #6705
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Ok, a poor choice of words. also let down...

    Let down by who though?


  • Options
    #6706
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I don't see how it could not be. The restorative power of forgiveness is very much over rated in my opinion, for something like what happened to her child the only thing that would in any way appease me is revenge. There's no forgiveness for things like this, not an ounce, not ever.
    When I walk in her shoe then I will know what she has gone through. I can only imagine how many times she has said to herself "how did I allow myself to be distracted for that brief time", "why I did not run to the exits immediately on missing Jamie". Why why why? She was not to know that evil aligned itself with her brief distraction.


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    #6707
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    splinter65 wrote: »
    The past was terrible but this is equally terrible. And you have our current government telling us how lucky we are to live in modern progressive loving compassionate Ireland when it’s an even bigger **** hole now then it ever was


    Homelessness is shocking as are so many working people looking for accommodation.


  • Options
    #6708
    Hal3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 818 ✭✭✭Hal3000


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Yes she was, and I would argue that the two boys were also let down. If people’s outrage at Ana’s death could be challenged into an effective anti-bullying strategy, maybe some small good could come from this tragedy. I seriously doubt that the boys, who were little more than children, developed into murdering bullies, overnight.

    It is not just in that school that a blind eye is shown to bullying behaviour. I have seen first hand the failure to tackle bullying children, by school authorities. It was only when a teacher was subjected to such behaviour that the problem was, very reluctantly, tackled.

    In some cases the adults in a school are intimidated by the offending children’s parents. In other cases the parents are considered people of influence in the community and no one wants to “take them on”. In both sets of circumstances, there is minimal outside help, to support school personnel considering action.

    Yes and our schools keep saying their is little they can do about bullying. That line will should go down in the Irish history annals “we couldn’t do anything “ . If you put your kid in a school that says they can do nothing about bullying, REMOVE them...

    A bullying database would be helpful, it should be mandatory for schools to report and record bullying incidents. If parents could see that data they would think twice about where they would send their kids, and schools with bad reps might start taking action. Or else this will continue and accountability one again in Ireland goes out the window.


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    #6709
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    Hal3000 wrote: »
    Yes and our schools keep saying their is little they can do about bullying. That line will should go down in the Irish history annals “we couldn’t do anything “ . If you put your kid in a school that says they can do nothing about bullying, REMOVE them...

    A bullying database would be helpful, it should be mandatory for schools to report and record bullying incidents. If parents could see that data they would think twice about where they would send their kids, and schools with bad reps might start taking action. Or else this will continue and accountability one again in Ireland goes out the window.

    I can see where you’re coming from, but that might not always be an option. Neither is there any guarantee that the next school will be better. There simply isn’t sufficient interest, amongst the general population, to ensure that this area is tackled, once and for all.

    It is now 14 years since I was involved with a secondary school, so my personal knowledge is dated. In my experience, only severe bullying behaviour was raised at board of management level. Here, it was extremely difficult to create any meaningful sanction against ringleaders and teachers and staff were in a very tough situation.

    A lasting tribute to Ana would be to demand that schools are safe environments for everyone. Bullying should be an item on the agenda at every Parents Council and Board of Management meeting. It should be part of whole school evaluations and tracked at school, region and national level. Even minor instances of bullying should not be tolerated, avoiding any possible escalation.


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    #6710
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    The had TV, & laptops in their own rooms & had got their own smart phones although one of them claims he kept loosing his.

    Well, there you go - unfettered access to god alone knows what. I wonder how they would have got on without any of these? We’ll never know in their case. However, there is increasing evidence that access to some of the more harmful material is permanently damaging young minds.

    We all have a role to play, here, we can demand that access to adult material on the Internet is restricted. This is easily accomplished from a technology perspective, the Chinese are pioneers in restricting content. It will only happen if there is a public outcry.


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    #6711
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    Homelessness is shocking as are so many working people looking for accommodation.

    The health service is shocking and disimproving every day.


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    #6712
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Let down by who though?

    Those who allowed them access to unsuitable material, at a young age. Those who allowed bullying behaviour to continually escalate...


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    #6713
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,999 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    splinter65 wrote: »
    The past was terrible but this is equally terrible. And you have our current government telling us how lucky we are to live in modern progressive loving compassionate Ireland when it’s an even bigger **** hole now then it ever was




    ...more over heated "moral panic" hyperbole with a complete disregard for the facts.


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    #6714
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Well, there you go - unfettered access to god alone knows what. I wonder how they would have got on without any of these? We’ll never know in their case. However, there is increasing evidence that access to some of the more harmful material is permanently damaging young minds.

    We all have a role to play, here, we can demand that access to adult material on the Internet is restricted. This is easily accomplished from a technology perspective, the Chinese are pioneers in restricting content. It will only happen if there is a public outcry.

    when you prove that this access has an effect across the wider population than just linking it yourself to two absolute aberrations you might have a point.

    you havent, and you dont


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    #6715
    tupenny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭tupenny


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Those who allowed them access to unsuitable material, at a young age. Those who allowed bullying behaviour to continually escalate...

    Oh poor them. Thats what made them murderers.
    Idiot


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    #6716
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    NewClareman wrote: »
    I can see where you’re coming from, but that might not always be an option. Neither is there any guarantee that the next school will be better. There simply isn’t sufficient interest, amongst the general population, to ensure that this area is tackled, once and for all.

    A lasting tribute to Ana would be to demand that schools are safe environments for everyone. Bullying should be an item on the agenda at every Parents Council and Board of Management meeting. It should be part of whole school evaluations and tracked at school, region and national level. Even minor instances of bullying should not be tolerated, avoiding any possible escalation.

    The system you describe is largely in place in the current national anti bullying program. All schools have to implement it. Add to that child protection reporting and there is a nationally applicable program there. It is obviously failing. There needs to be a serious look taken at it. Why isn’t it effective?


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    #6717
    jackboy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭jackboy


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    The system you describe is largely in place in the current national anti bullying program. All schools have to implement it. Add to that child protection reporting and there is a nationally applicable program there. It is obviously failing. There needs to be a serious look taken at it. Why isn’t it effective?

    Because the whole system is built so that authorities and schools can say that there is a system in place. It is not a serious attempt to eliminate or reduce bullying. That would take unpalatable actions which will never happen.


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    #6718
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    jackboy wrote: »
    Because the whole system is built so that authorities and schools can say that there is a system in place. It is not a serious attempt to eliminate or reduce bullying. That would take unpalatable actions which will never happen.

    You may well have a point. What unpalatable actions are needed?


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    #6719
    skallywag
    Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭skallywag


    tupenny wrote: »
    Oh poor them. Thats what made them murderers.
    Idiot

    Is the word 'idiot' anathema now?

    Why was this post carded?


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    #6720
    jackboy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,462 ✭✭✭jackboy


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    You may well have a point. What unpalatable actions are needed?

    The level of bullying that Ana was subjected to cannot possibly take place without the indirect consent of the teachers, parents and community of the bullies. That is why tackling the bullies is a waste of time. The teachers and parents would need to be punished as they are the adults and are ultimately responsible. I have no idea how this could happen though. I suspect that it can’t be done.


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    #6721
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    jackboy wrote: »
    The level of bullying that Ana was subjected to cannot possibly take place without the indirect consent of the teachers, parents and community of the bullies. That is why tackling the bullies is a waste of time. The teachers and parents would need to be punished as they are the adults and are ultimately responsible. I have no idea how this could happen though. I suspect that it can’t be done.

    I'm not sure I would go as far as you but accountability has to be there. There is a big issue emerging there alright around parental support, implied, tacit, obvious, defensive, whatever for children bullying others. Maybe looking at what processes enable them to stop action being taken is the way to go. I don't know either but I do know that the system that has evolved across law, justice, education, parole is not delivering protection or solace for those that need it.


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