Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

jackboy

We can't know why she was killed because we don't have honest statements from the two boys, they have consistently lied and deceived from the start. Until someone gets an honest statement from them everything else is guesswork.

Putting a once off child to child murder down to issues with the society is a real stretch.

retro:electro

“We need to boys and men to task”. What a ridiculous statement. The whole article is an insult to the many loving boys and men that Ana had in her life who would give anything to have her back. Ana wasn’t murdered because she happened to be anything. To say such a thing almost infers that she bears some of the responsibility of her own murder for daring to be a girl. She was murdered because the people who murdered were sadistic little bastards.

donkeykong5

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Ana Kriegel: Parents to sue local education board over school's response to bullying allegations.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/grieving-parents-ana-kriegel-sue-17234290

Good

Suckit

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Ana Kriegel: Parents to sue local education board over school's response to bullying allegations.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/grieving-parents-ana-kriegel-sue-17234290

I hope that is just the beginning of getting people to admit accountability. Posting "Respect For All" across the frontpage of their website leaves a bit of a bitter taste.

I also hope that getting this, doesn't consume them.

KWAG2019

The article in the IT has really hit nerves: the comments on the IT site and here show that. I can understand the strong reaction to it and I welcome that to get past the knee jerk emotional stage.

Beyond that lies some hard truths: Ana's murder lies at the end of a continuum of violence against women. 225 women have been killed in Ireland 1996-2018. 16 children died with them. In 2017 19,385 disclosures of domestic violence were made to Women's Aid. While Prof. Muldoon's article didn't supply those stats we can all google as well as I can. Women are more likely to die a violent death at home than anywhere else. https://www.womensaid.ie/about/campaigns/femicide-in-ireland.html

I think we can all understand that the article has framed Ana's death in a particular light and not a very pleasant one. Muldoon has bravely put this out there and it's time that we began to think about the culture of misogyny that feeds into this continuum of violence. The "mystery" of Ana's death is just a fig leaf to avoid dealing with what we do already know. And there is enough to be getting on with: the justice system, as well as mobile phones and children, as well as anti bullying policies.

banie01

There is nothing courageous and indeed little actually cogent in Orla Muldoon's near monthly rail against the patriarchy.

If you think there is, indeed if you think that article you are so fond of praising has any serious journalistic or quasi academic merit, I'd seriously doubt your ability to offer a reasonable critique.

You have done nothing to address the criticisms raised of the work bar repeating a frankly ridiculous praise of Muldoon's courage.

Jesus, I don't even think Ms Muldoon's mother could ascribe as much praise to the version of the article she has pinned to her fridge in its original crayon!

If your bar on what makes quality journalism is set that low, the Daily Mail may well blow your mind so be careful with what you read!

There are many more quality articles both journalistic and academic that make a much more cogent thesis for the gender based violence theory than the piece you are enamoured with.
Holding that tripe up as anything approaching quality, makes a mockery of anyone who has ever endured domestic violence.

Domestic violence is not a gender based issue, if it was Lesbian couples would never encounter it.
Yet the research available says much different.

Far more women are victims of men in domestic violence, but on an actual like for like per capita basis the amount of lesbian relationships that descend to violence is staggering.
How do you and your buddy Ms Muldoon propose to lay that cohort at the door of Irish men?

KWAG2019

I haven’t read any criticism of the article. I’ve read rejection of it. I’ve read your highly emotional, personalized insults and exaggerated responses which haven’t made any impact on the thrust of what she said. If you get this emotional on a forum I will repeat that Muldoon was brave. Good on her.

banie01

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I haven’t read any criticism of the article. I’ve read rejection of it. I’ve read your highly emotional, personalized insults and exaggerated responses which haven’t made any impact on the thrust of what she said. If you get this emotional on a forum I will repeat that Muldoon was brave. Good on her.

If you feel I have offered insult, report it.
If not, withdraw the remark please.

You are fixated upon Muldoon's article being brave, you are in a minority of one from what I can see.
The article is poor, its premise is poor and should any clarification be needed feel free to scroll up and re-read the criticisms that have been levied against it.

Defending poor work, because it fits nicely or segues into a world view you cultivate is a very poor stance to take in life.
I'd hope it never bites you.

Spanish Eyes

With due respect to the lovely Ana Kriegel, may she rest in peace, her murderers will be forgotten about by those not personally involved very soon.

There may be a book, podcast or something like that, but life goes on.

This case was absolutely awful, no way to ameliorate it for anyone. Ever.

The identities will come out after 18, even if it is barred by the judge. If it were my daughter I would do it, and go to jail for it. Can you see that happening? But maybe others have more conscience and observance of the law in such circumstances than I do. I don't think I could help myself.

KWAG2019

I don’t care about you offering insult. It’s simply a sign of your hugely emotional response. Nothing I have read here impacts upon the thrust of the article. It’s an important point to dispel the “mystery” of Ana’s murder.

About poor stances in life: taking a highly emotional and reactive stance is not a way to get at truth. I hope you get control of your reactions. I’d imagine it has already bitten you

tuxy

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The identities will come out after 18, even if it is barred by the judge. If it were my daughter I would do it, and go to jail for it. Can you see that happening? But maybe others have more conscience and observance of the law in such circumstances than I do. I don't think I could help myself.

Is this article incorrect or do you think the new identities will be unsuccessful?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/teen-killers-ana-kriegel-offered-20851005

retro:electro

I wonder how their anonymity works in Oberstown in relation to the other offenders there? When the other youths leave after what I assume will be a much shorter period of detention, are they bound from revealing their names, even casually to family? How can you police that? Or how does it work?

tuxy

Does it matter what their names are now if they are getting new identities on release?

It could only cause harm to innocence members of their family to reveal the names at this stage.

banie01

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I don’t care about you offering insult. It’s simply a sign of your hugely emotional response. Nothing I have read here impacts upon the thrust of the article. It’s an important point to dispel the “mystery” of Ana’s murder.

About poor stances in life: taking a highly emotional and reactive stance is not a way to get at truth. I hope you get control of your reactions. I’d imagine it has already bitten you

You are fixated on assigning an emotional aspect to my response.
There isn't one, and funnily enough from your posting syntax and phrasing I'd be fairly sure that you posted similar comments towards a poster in the comments section of the article itself.
Apologies if I'm wrong, but it's quite a distinctive style.

I have no emotional involvement or indeed investment in this.
The article isn't an affront to masculinity.

It is poorly researched, emotive, knee-jerk, catch all and as I said in an earlier reply a copy and paste response that fits any violent sexual assault.

That is not emotive, that is criticism, editorialising and factual critique.

It's an affront to good journalism and half decent academics.

If you wish to respond in kind, please do?
Because given you have already ignored the prevalence of domestic violence in Lesbian relationships, it really does appear that not only are you the president and cheerleader in chief of Ms Muldoon's fan club.

Its quite clear that you have an agenda that actually precludes criticism, inspection or indeed verification of any of the claims made or the effect that may have on your quite clearly gender driven agenda.
Or is it just Mrs Muldoon's claims you think are Pulitzer worthy?

Purple Mountain

retro:electro wrote: »

I wonder how their anonymity works in Oberstown in relation to the other offenders there? When the other youths leave after what I assume will be a much shorter period of detention, are they bound from revealing their names, even casually to family? How can you police that? Or how does it work?

I'd assume its the same as everyone in their old school knowing their name.
All the locals know who they are but no one can name them in the press or media.

KWAG2019

banie01 wrote: »

You are fixated on assigning an emotional aspect to my response.
Their isn't one, and funnily enough from your posting syntax and phrasing I'd be fairly sure that you posted similar comments towards a poster in the comments section of the article itself.
Apologies if I'm wrong, but it's quite a distinctive style.

I have no emotional involvement or indeed investment in this.
The article isn't an affront to masculinity.

It is poorly researched, emotive, knee-jerk, catch all and as I said in an earlier reply a copy and paste response that fits any violent sexual assault.

That is not emotive, that is criticism, editorialising and factual critique.

It's an affront to good journalism and half decent academics.

If you wish to respond in kind, please do?
Because given you have already ignored the prevalence of domestic violence in Lesbian relationships, it really does appear that not only are you the president and cheerleader in chief of Ms Muldoon's fan club.

Its quite clear that you have an agenda that actually precludes criticism, inspection or indeed verification of any of the claims made or the effect that may have on your quite clearly gender driven agenda.
Or is it just Mrs Muldoon's claims you think are Pulitzer worthy?

I welcome the highly emotional response you have made repeatedly here. It’s a stage. You need to get through it.

My agenda is to avoid being dragged into a tit for tat which ends in bans.

I’ll continue to look at issues of domestic violence. I don’t think there’s any point continuing to reply to you.

Spanish Eyes

Schoolmates will note their absence and know.

The bullying issue might need a bit of attention from the school now.

School must be a bit concerned. If it is not, well, no more to say really.

banie01

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I welcome the highly emotional response you have made repeatedly here. It’s a stage. You need to get through it.

My agenda is to avoid being dragged into a tit for tat which ends in bans.

I’ll continue to look at issues of domestic violence. I don’t think there’s any point continuing to reply to you.

Again you are posting nonsense.
Your nonsense has been explained and you are refusing to grasp it.

There is no emotional component to my response, as someone else I'm fairly sure said to you today "my Fitbit is at 72".

I'd paraphrase that my MiBand is at 68.

TLDR; You are mindlessly supporting and parroting poor journalism and zero research and ascribing emotional response or involvement to people who question it.
The tradition here is attack the post, your posts on Muldoon's article are little more cogent than her article.
Coincidence?

tuxy

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Schoolmates will note their absence and know.

The bullying issue might need a bit of attention from the school now.

School must be a bit concerned. If it is not, well, no more to say really.

I'm sure everyone in that areas knows their names. Not naming them nationally should limit vigilante attacks on the families though.

iamwhoiam

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Schoolmates will note their absence and know.

The bullying issue might need a bit of attention from the school now.

School must be a bit concerned. If it is not, well, no more to say really.

Their names are known all over Leixlip and Lucan . They won’t remain anonymous in my opinion Ireland is a very small place really

banie01

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Their names are known all over Leixlip and Lucan . They won’t remain anonymous in my opinion Ireland is a very small place really

It really is a village, we are very much all somebody's cousin and news such as their identity travelled quickly and will again come release time.

tuxy

Is that mirror article correct about new identities on release?
Has this been done in Ireland before and does it always fail?

Spanish Eyes

tuxy wrote: »

I'm sure everyone in that areas knows their names. Not naming them nationally should limit vigilante attacks on the families though.

Just wondered how the families could stay in the area now? Maybe they think their boys are innocent.

Then again they may have moved on. If they stayed they are either brazen or convinced of their son's innocence. Either way it is awful and it will come out sooner or later.

tuxy

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just wondered how the families could stay in the area now? Maybe they think their boys are innocent.

Then again they may have moved on. If they stayed they are either brazen or convinced of their son's innocence. Either way it is awful and it will come out sooner or later.

Well boy B's family are saying he is innocent hence the possible appeal that was announced.
I think a member of Boy A's family being attacked was in the papers before the trial started.

And there have been reports that members of both boy's families have been attacked since the trial but that is unconfirmed.

tupenny

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just wondered how the families could stay in the area now? Maybe they think their boys are innocent.

Then again they may have moved on. If they stayed they are either brazen or convinced of their son's innocence. Either way it is awful and it will come out sooner or later.

Brazen is the answer. Only need to look at creature A's grandad statement in court and creature B's dad outburst to see that.

KWAG2019

If anyone is interested in moving beyond reactive and knee jerk responses to theories of domestic violence there is an excellent overview article at http://https://www2.gov.scot/resource/doc/925/0063072.pdf

It’s a genuine academic work, not pretend, and is heavy going but worth it.

McCrack

retro:electro wrote: »

“We need to boys and men to task”. What a ridiculous statement. The whole article is an insult to the many loving boys and men that Ana had in her life who would give anything to have her back. Ana wasn’t murdered because she happened to be anything. To say such a thing almost infers that she bears some of the responsibility of her own murder for daring to be a girl. She was murdered because the people who murdered were sadistic little bastards.

Yes however there was a sexual feature to the crime so her gender certainly had something to do with it and also being weaker physically. It's not surprising then that a female like Ana was targeted by these two

banie01

KWAG2019 wrote: »

If anyone is interested in moving beyond reactive and knee jerk responses to theories of domestic violence there is an excellent overview article at http://https://www2.gov.scot/resource/doc/925/0063072.pdf

It’s a genuine academic work, not pretend, and is heavy going but worth it.

You may want to fix your link. Actually never mind I did it for you.
https://www2.gov.scot/resource/doc/925/0063072.pdf

That you think that sociological theory abstract running to 11 pages is heavy going, or that what you linked to is actually research is, to use a turn of phrase of yours "quite illuminating"

It's not research, its a glossary of terms and theories associated with domestic violence.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

If anyone is interested in moving beyond reactive and knee jerk responses to theories of domestic violence there is an excellent overview article at http://https://www2.gov.scot/resource/doc/925/0063072.pdf

It’s a genuine academic work, not pretend, and is heavy going but worth it.

The link isn’t working very well for me. I think it is now. The article is called Theories To explain male violence and is an overview.

tuxy

banie01 wrote: »

That you think that sociological theory abstract running to 11 pages is heavy going, or that what you linked to is actually research is, to use a turn of phrase of yours "quite illuminating"

Eight and a half pages written in very basic English.