The glorious 12th

lawred2 · 17-07-2019 2:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.

It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.

ah yeah but one hand washes the other.. all these things should be recognised equally. Can't be giving out on one hand about Unionists not recognizing the Irish language and then pretty much do the same with Ulster Scots..

I wouldn't see them as the same myself but as you said earlier - is that up to us?

lawred2 · 17-07-2019 2:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

And where did I suggest that the tradition of Ulster Scots is equal to that of the Irish language? The revival of Ulster Scots is a much more recent phenonemon.

In fact, if you want to argue the legitimacy of minority languages, the languages that immigrants from Eastern Europe have brought with them arguably have a lot more legitimacy than either of the two revived languages. Irish died out in the North for whatever reason, and there were no native speakers left by the mid-1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century."

Yes, it was being revived elsewhere at the same time, but the dialect used is mostly based on Donegal Irish.

yeah 'for whatever reason'

:pac:

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 2:03pm

lawred2 wrote: »

yeah 'for whatever reason'

:pac:

You can put it down to oppression, you can put it down to disinterest, you can put it down to lack of opportunity, we can have that debate another time. The point is, native Irish speaking died out in the North.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:08pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, the Catholic Church gets money from the State, and wants to deny identity to the LGBTQ community. I don't like the OO, I don't like the Catholic Church, I don't agree with their positions on these issues, but unlike you, I won't deny them the right to have their views and express them.

The OO is not a religion or a church.
Please stop echoing the nonsense 'look over there' comparisons of janfebmar and downcow etc
If you object to religions getting taxpayers money to promote politcal agendas, open a thread on it.

downcow · 17-07-2019 2:12pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.

It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.

I disagree Francie. Ulster Scots is not just about a language. Ulster Scots is the tradition of a very large number of people who live in NI. The most downtroden of all in the past (the 'blackmouths'). There is a very rich tradition which we did not need acts or government funding to sustain. The language/accent/or whatever has added a real richness to life here and again has done that with no historic funding. The parading is just one important part of it, that alone has 3,000 parades per year. The Ulster Scots community also regularly (if not almost always) has the world champion bands in accordion, highland pipe and flute - impressive for such a tiny group of people and i could go on and on. So I know you'd prefer not to regard us as equal but equal we are, and we are flourishing. One newly revived aspect is Scottish dancing which is starting to flourish in our communities.

Dytalus · 17-07-2019 2:16pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, the Catholic Church gets money from the State, and wants to deny identity to the LGBTQ community.

Does it? I'm aware it has tax exempt status, but I wasn't aware of any special grants it got - outside of the usual community grants for things tied to it, but I'm also aware of such things being given to other faiths (protestant Girl Guides springs to mind).

Not that I'm saying you're lying or anything, I'm genuinely curious.

I do tend to be of the view that if the expressed views of any organisation involve putting down citizens (be it Catholics for the OO, or LGBT individuals for the CC) that it should not be given any kind of state funding. Governments should not be seen to be funding any kind of bigoted position that demands its citizens should belong to some kind of second level status.

That said, I don't actually see anything wrong with membership rules - again, as above, the protestant Girl Guides in Ireland. It's unreasonable to demand of, for example, a mosque or church or religious organisation to provide services to those not of their faith. It should be, however, required to keep to themselves. The CC not allowing for gay weddings (as a ceremony) in their churches is one thing, them campaigning to forbid gay marriage (as a legal institution) is another. I figure the same standards should apply to the Orange Order.

Although not being a church, I'd imagine they don't qualify for tax exempt status. So it's solely grants and direct funding that comes into question.

lawred2 · 17-07-2019 2:18pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You can put it down to oppression, you can put it down to disinterest, you can put it down to lack of opportunity, we can have that debate another time. The point is, native Irish speaking died out in the North.

they can't be listed like that... simply can't

It diminishes the role the organs of the Orange state supported by the British State played in the suppression of all things Irish.

You can't list them in some trivial manner as if they are equivalents.. We wouldn't be here having this discussion without decades/centuries of subjugation in the North. An effort that continues to this day where any cultural concession is seen as an assault on Britishness and to be resisted at all costs.

downcow · 17-07-2019 2:22pm

Dytalus wrote: »

Does it? I'm aware it has tax exempt status, but I wasn't aware of any special grants it got - outside of the usual community grants for things tied to it, but I'm also aware of such things being given to other faiths (protestant Girl Guides springs to mind).

Not that I'm saying you're lying or anything, I'm genuinely curious.

I do tend to be of the view that if the expressed views of any organisation involve putting down citizens (be it Catholics for the OO, or LGBT individuals for the CC) that it should not be given any kind of state funding. Governments should not be seen to be funding any kind of bigoted position that demands its citizens should belong to some kind of second level status.

That said, I don't actually see anything wrong with membership rules - again, as above, the protestant Girl Guides in Ireland. It's unreasonable to demand of, for example, a mosque or church or religious organisation to provide services to those not of their faith. It should be, however, required to keep to themselves. The CC not allowing for gay weddings (as a ceremony) in their churches is one thing, them campaigning to forbid gay marriage (as a legal institution) is another. I figure the same standards should apply to the Orange Order.

Although not being a church, I'd imagine they don't qualify for tax exempt status. So it's solely grants and direct funding that comes into question.

I wasn't aware of the Protestant GG i was aware of the Catholic GG. could you give me a link to this organisation?

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 2:22pm

downcow wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.

It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.

I disagree Francie. Ulster Scots is not just about a language. Ulster Scots is the tradition of a very large number of people who live in NI. The most downtroden of all in the past (the 'blackmouths'). There is a very rich tradition which we did not need acts or government funding to sustain. The language/accent/or whatever has added a real richness to life here and again has done that with no historic funding. The parading is just one important part of it, that alone has 3,000 parades per year. The Ulster Scots community also regularly (if not almost always) has the world champion bands in accordion, highland pipe and flute - impressive for such a tiny group of people and i could go on and on. So I know you'd prefer not to regard us as equal but equal we are, and we are flourishing. One newly revived aspect is Scottish dancing which is starting to flourish in our communities.

I reckon the Airdrie Albion Accordion band would give any of them a run for their money!:)

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 2:27pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The OO is not a religion or a church.
Please stop echoing the nonsense 'look over there' comparisons of janfebmar and downcow etc
If you object to religions getting taxpayers money to promote politcal agendas, open a thread on it.

Ok, forget about the Catholic Church, how about the GAA?

"The Gaelic Athletic Association today is an organisation which
reaches into every corner of the land and has its roots in every
Irish parish. Throughout the Country, legions of voluntary
workers willingly make sacrifices to promote its ideals and carry
its daily burdens. Why does the Association receive this unselfish
support?
Those who play its games, those who organise its activities
and those who control its destinies see in the G.A.A. a means
of consolidating our Irish identity. The games to them are
more than games - they have a national significance - and the
promotion of native pastimes becomes a part of the full national
ideal, which envisages the speaking of our own language,
music and dances. The primary purpose of the G.A.A. is the
organisation of native pastimes and the promotion of athletic
fitness as a means to create a disciplined, self- reliant, national minded manhood. The overall result is the expression of a
people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones.
Since she has not control over all the national territory,
Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired. It would be still
more impaired if she were to lose her language, if she failed to
provide a decent livelihood for her people at home, or if she
were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the
games and customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes
of nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in our
race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost makes us so
much poorer as a Nation. Today, the native games take on a
new significance when it is realised that they have been a part,
and still are a part, of the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to
govern her own affairs."

Again, I have no problem at all with the political aspirations expressed here by the GAA, and no problem with their funding, they are entitled to their views, but if you are going to withdraw funding from the Orange Order because they have something to say about identity, you would have to do the same for the GAA on principle.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:33pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Ok, forget about the Catholic Church, how about the GAA?

"The Gaelic Athletic Association today is an organisation which
reaches into every corner of the land and has its roots in every
Irish parish. Throughout the Country, legions of voluntary
workers willingly make sacrifices to promote its ideals and carry
its daily burdens. Why does the Association receive this unselfish
support?
Those who play its games, those who organise its activities
and those who control its destinies see in the G.A.A. a means
of consolidating our Irish identity. The games to them are
more than games - they have a national significance - and the
promotion of native pastimes becomes a part of the full national
ideal, which envisages the speaking of our own language,
music and dances. The primary purpose of the G.A.A. is the
organisation of native pastimes and the promotion of athletic
fitness as a means to create a disciplined, self- reliant, national minded manhood. The overall result is the expression of a
people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones.
Since she has not control over all the national territory,
Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired. It would be still
more impaired if she were to lose her language, if she failed to
provide a decent livelihood for her people at home, or if she
were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the
games and customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes
of nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in our
race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost makes us so
much poorer as a Nation. Today, the native games take on a
new significance when it is realised that they have been a part,
and still are a part, of the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to
govern her own affairs."

Again, I have no problem at all with the political aspirations expressed here by the GAA, and no problem with their funding, they are entitled to their views, but if you are going to withdraw funding from the Orange Order because they have something to say about identity, you would have to do the same for the GAA on principle.

Where in that text is the equivalent of:

We will resolutely oppose any development which politically, economically or culturally undermines the current constitutional position. We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’

Which is 'preserve our culture AT THE EXPENSE of another'.
By all means form societies and organisations to perserve your own culture, but not at the expense of somebody else's in a shared EQUAL society.

Keep digging those holes blanch.

Dytalus · 17-07-2019 2:38pm

downcow wrote: »

I wasn't aware of the Protestant GG i was aware of the Catholic GG. could you give me a link to this organisation?

If you live in NI, I would not be surprised. The Irish Girl Guides are not an all-island organisation and only operate in the Republic.

Also I may have been incorrect on calling them a 'Protestant' organisation, a quick scan of their website doesn't actually mention any kind of religious affiliation. My knowledge of them came through a Church of Ireland community. Coupled with their being a distinct organisation from the CGI, I made an assumption which may not be accurate.

My bad.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:48pm

downcow wrote: »

I disagree Francie. Ulster Scots is not just about a language. Ulster Scots is the tradition of a very large number of people who live in NI. The most downtroden of all in the past (the 'blackmouths'). There is a very rich tradition which we did not need acts or government funding to sustain. The language/accent/or whatever has added a real richness to life here and again has done that with no historic funding. The parading is just one important part of it, that alone has 3,000 parades per year. The Ulster Scots community also regularly (if not almost always) has the world champion bands in accordion, highland pipe and flute - impressive for such a tiny group of people and i could go on and on. So I know you'd prefer not to regard us as equal but equal we are, and we are flourishing. One newly revived aspect is Scottish dancing which is starting to flourish in our communities.

Ulster Scots is a dialect, one that I could be speaking tomorrow and have a lot of by dint of where I live...in Ulster. It is a fascinating and rich dialect which it would be tragic to lose. It SHOULD BE protected and supported but attempts to call it a language on a par with Irish are ridiculous and do nobody any favours. Two pieces here underline that: One by a journalist and this one that took place on radio.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=693489797522641

Jason Walsh wrote:

Some years ago I was employed in a production capacity by an Irish unionist newspaper and it was here that I first came head-to-head with the bizarre twilight world of Ulster Scots. As I came from the republican stronghold of west Belfast I knew little of this ‘language’ but a good friend of mine in the newsroom was responsible for laying-out ‘the Ulster Scot’, a free supplement all about this make-believe lingo.

At the time I thought it was nothing short of hilarious: clearly unionists were chafing at the sight of the Irish language undergoing a genuine (though frequently overstated) renaissance that was dragging it out of its comfortable romantic obscurity and into the modern world. What was the best thing to do about this, pondered unionist politicians, until one had the astonishingly grandiose idea of actually inventing their own language. Of course, synthetic languages like Loglan and Esperanto are difficult to learn and it’s even harder to persuade people to actually learn the damn things, so in order to facilitate rapid growth the new language of Ulster Scots would be simply the dialect of English spoken in North Antrim with a kind of dyslexic phonetic spelling system and a few inscrutable phrases pilfered from Lowland Scots dialect of English. If Ulster Scots is a language then so are the dialects used in Irvine Welsh’s ‘Trainspotting’ or James Kelman’s ‘How Late it Was, How Late.’ When BBC Radio Ulster announced, sadly incorrectly, that the Ulster Scots term for mentally disabled children was “wee daftie weans” I almost fell over, so hard was I laughing at the antics of these clowns.

I later enjoyed, if that is the correct word, a further dunking in the stagnant waters of the unionist identity project when BBC Northern Ireland screened the execrable ‘On Eagle’s Wing’, an all-singing, all-dancing, and above all, almightily camp musical that appears to be a kind of ‘Ulster kulsher’ response to the dreadful Riverdance. Revelling in unionist victimology, ‘On Eagle’s Wing’ tells the story of the stout Ulstemen and their redoubtable womenfolk as they made their way to the New World in order to escape persecution from the British Establishment in Ireland. Tellingly, the so-called ‘Scots-Irish-Americans’ are virtually unknown today, not because they were unsuccessful, but precisely because they thrived, threw off the chains of their former identities and merged completely into American society – precisely the opposite of what their born-again boosters are now promoting.

Pedro K · 17-07-2019 3:00pm

downcow wrote: »

I just see it exactly the same as a union flag on a lamppost. Offensive to some but doesn’t bother many and some love them.
There could be room for both but we need to work on mutual understanding and respect first.

But you already have the Union flag flying on particular days, as per the rest of the U.K., and you have the English language on signs. How could Irish language on signs alongside English be offensive? Could that not be considered trying to eat your cake and have it too?

Pedro K · 17-07-2019 3:02pm

downcow wrote: »

Would you accept signs up on designated days as has been done to the union flag in Belfast council. This might be a fair solution

Did you not mention cost as one of your points if opposition to the ILA? But now you're suggesting we could erect and take down signs every so often?

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 3:04pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where in that text is the equivalent of:

Which is 'preserve our culture AT THE EXPENSE of another'.
By all means form societies and organisations to perserve your own culture, but not at the expense of somebody else's in a shared EQUAL society.

Keep digging those holes blanch.

That GAA statement goes further than preserving your own culture, as you well know - "The overall result is the expression of a people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones." and " if she were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the games and customs of another nation."

It is expressed in much more judicial language but the sentiment and the principle of our culture at the expense of others is still the same.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ulster Scots is a dialect, one that I could be speaking tomorrow and have a lot of by dint of where I live...in Ulster. It is a fascinating and rich dialect which it would be tragic to lose. It SHOULD BE protected and supported but attempts to call it a language on a par with Irish are ridiculous and do nobody any favours. Two pieces here underline that: One by a journalist and this one that took place on radio.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=693489797522641

Who has said that Ulster-Scots should be on a par with Irish? All that I have said is that an overarching Minority Languages Act would be a symbol of mutual respect for traditions but that there should be different practical arrangements for different languages within the overarching Act.

The veil of equality you draw over your proposals is embarrassingly thin.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 3:05pm

Pedro K wrote: »

But you already have the Union flag flying on particular days, as per the rest of the U.K., and you have the English language on signs. How could Irish language on signs alongside English be offensive? Could that not be considered trying to eat your cake and have it too?

There is a peculiar schizophrenic logic in downcow's answers, on the one hand, he washes his hands on behalf of Unionists and the OO for the taunting that goes on with flags on lamposts, bonfires and contentious parades, yet on the other hand in return for language rights he wants this behaviour to be accepted as part of their culture. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 3:14pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That GAA statement goes further than preserving your own culture, as you well know - "The overall result is the expression of a people’s preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones." and " if she were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the games and customs of another nation."

It is expressed in much more judicial language but the sentiment and the principle of our culture at the expense of others is still the same.

I am not that interested in getting into a tit for tat, look over there argument. If you feel that the GAA or the Catholic church are out of order that does not excuse anybody else for being out of order.

Who has said that Ulster-Scots should be on a par with Irish? All that I have said is that an overarching Minority Languages Act would be a symbol of mutual respect for traditions but that there should be different practical arrangements for different languages within the overarching Act.

The veil of equality you draw over your proposals is embarrassingly thin.

Nobody has an objection to the support and protection of Ulster Scots, least of all those proposing an Irish Language act. Once again, your desire to depict this as some sort of territorial battle that requires a trade off, in case republicans or nationalists might win something is writ large.

Like the Welsh and Scots the Irish require a standalone act and are supported in this by the British (who agreed to one) the EU and UN.
Ulster Scots is also supported as a dialect worthy of it's own protection.

downcow · 17-07-2019 3:17pm

A wee bit of that disgusting ulster scots culture associated with the twelfth. Maybe some who have been blasting the twelfth can give some honest feed back - this is the real orange culture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPHpSJEZAjQ our current flute world champions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp4elB3Ksrc our current pipe world champions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLhnaB8W83k a wee sample of the fast growing scottish dancing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1yJQnKDj_0 the belfast tattoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf5DNpSkvrY Francie says it dying out. Here is the traditional welcome home for the MYD who have no lodge to parade with in their own town so go to Belfast twelfth and return to their we rural town at 10pm. Have a wee look at the crowd that return after a long twelfth day to meet them and have a look at the age profile - I think its here for a while yet Francie

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 3:21pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am not that interested in getting into a tit for tat, look over there argument.

That must be a first.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has an objection to the support and protection of Ulster Scots, least of all those proposing an Irish Language act. Once again, your desire to depict this as some sort of territorial battle that requires a trade off, in case republicans or nationalists might win something is writ large.

Like the Welsh and Scots the Irish require a standalone act and are supported in this by the British (who agreed to one) the EU and UN.
Ulster Scots is also supported as a dialect worthy of it's own protection.

Nope, didn't depict it as a territorial battle, just mutual respect for cultures and traditions, appropriately differentiated. Not interested in anyone winning anything, just in middle ground compromises.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 3:22pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my post as I am not proposing a one size fits all. Rather, I am suggesting an approach that recognises equality of tradition.

A Minority Languages Act may have an overarching approach but it may have differential provisions for different languages. For example, it might provide for road-signs in three languages, but only provide for schools through Irish.

I am not surprised that neither community actually wants a Minority Languages Act, each side is much more interested in securing a victory over the other.

If that is what you are arguing for then there is nothing more than a semantic difference between that and having an Irish Language Act and a seperate Ulster Scots Act that caters for their needs. That you seem to think that this semantic difference is important is something you will really have to explain. The reason that Irish speakers oppose having a Minority Languages Act is that it is fairly obvious that the only reason to insist on a Minority Languages Act is to use Ulster Scots to undermine the demands of the Irish speaking community in a one size fits all approch.

The Irish language does not belong to one community, speakers of Irish come from every background (even supporters of the DUP). I don't know of any Irish speakers who are interested in gaining some sort of "victory" over speakers of Ulster-Scots. If anything there is some sympathy on the part of Irish speakers to the case of Ulster Scots as we can see that they tend to get ignored except when they are being used as a stick against the demands of Irish speakers.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 3:30pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

If that is what you are arguing for then there is nothing more than a semantic difference between that and having an Irish Language Act and a seperate Ulster Scots Act that caters for their needs. That you seem to think that this semantic difference is important is something you will really have to explain. The reason that Irish speakers oppose having a Minority Languages Act is that it is fairly obvious that the only reason to insist on a Minority Languages Act is to use Ulster Scots to undermine the demands of the Irish speaking community in a one size fits all approch.

The Irish language does not belong to one community, speakers of Irish come from every background (even supporters of the DUP). I don't know of any Irish speakers who are interested in gaining some sort of "victory" over speakers of Ulster-Scots. If anything there is some sympathy on the part of Irish speakers to the case of Ulster Scots as we can see that they tend to get ignored except when they are being used as a stick against the demands of Irish speakers.

Turning that on its head, if it is only a semantic difference in your eyes, what is the problem with it?

To me, the issue is whether someone wants the trappings and symbolism of a victory over the unionist community (an Irish Languages Act) or just want the practical changes to support the Irish language which can be equally achieved through a differentiated Minority Languages Act.

You only have to look at this and similar threads to see which posters will be out in force celebrating an Irish Languages Act and while boards.ie does not reflect society as a whole, there will be plenty who will be looking to rub Unionist noses in it, but will never speak a word of Irish before or after the Act.

downcow · 17-07-2019 3:34pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You only have to look at this and similar threads to see which posters will be out in force celebrating an Irish Languages Act and while boards.ie does not reflect society as a whole, there will be plenty who will be looking to rub Unionist noses in it, but will never speak a word of Irish before or after the Act.

exactly

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 3:37pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That must be a first.

Nope, didn't depict it as a territorial battle, just mutual respect for cultures and traditions, appropriately differentiated. Not interested in anyone winning anything, just in middle ground compromises.

The appropriate respect is there (see Irish Government, Conradh Na Gaelige, SF, and others statements) and the cultural weight of each are accepted except in the Unionist community. There is zero respect for the Irish language in the DUP and in a lot of Unionist politics. There are many many famous examples of that.
But yet your main interest in this thread is in challenging those advocating for the Irish Language, not a single argument against our unionist poster...typical?...yep.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 3:42pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The appropriate respect is there (see Irish Government, Conradh Na Gaelige, SF, and others statements) and the cultural weight of each are accepted except in the Unionist community. There is zero respect for the Irish language in the DUP and in a lot of Unionist politics. There are many many famous examples of that.
But yet your main interest in this thread is in challenging those advocating for the Irish Language, not a single argument against our unionist poster...typical?...yep.

Wait a minute, I am proposing a Minority Languages Act, that will include provision for signs in Irish, for Irish schools, for some public services in Irish etc., yet somehow that means I am on the unionist side?

See some sense. You are way off the mark, buddy.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 3:42pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Turning that on its head, if it is only a semantic difference in your eyes, what is the problem with it?

Little enough, but I don't believe that the opperation you are suggesting is what is actually proposed by those who push a Minority Languages Act instead of allowing an Irish Language Act and then actually engageing with the other language communities to see what their needs actually are.

You really have to ask yourself why it is so important that anything but an Irish language act be allowed? Do you really think it is just a meaningless semantic arguement that they are making or is the purpose to frustrate the demands of Irish speakers by trying to trap the Irish language with a bunch of other languages in totally different positions, with a lowest common denominator approch.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 3:46pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

If that is what you are arguing for then there is nothing more than a semantic difference between that and having an Irish Language Act and a seperate Ulster Scots Act that caters for their needs. That you seem to think that this semantic difference is important is something you will really have to explain. The reason that Irish speakers oppose having a Minority Languages Act is that it is fairly obvious that the only reason to insist on a Minority Languages Act is to use Ulster Scots to undermine the demands of the Irish speaking community in a one size fits all approch.

The Irish language does not belong to one community, speakers of Irish come from every background (even supporters of the DUP). I don't know of any Irish speakers who are interested in gaining some sort of "victory" over speakers of Ulster-Scots. If anything there is some sympathy on the part of Irish speakers to the case of Ulster Scots as we can see that they tend to get ignored except when they are being used as a stick against the demands of Irish speakers.

There was n'er a woord about Ulster Scots until the GFA and the Ulster Scots Agency ( Boord O Ulster-Scótch - I kid you not!

) was only set up after it, with John Laird deputised to make Ulster Scots as important as Irish.
Fairly clear to me how it is being used for nefarious political purposes.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 3:47pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Little enough, but I don't believe that the opperation you are suggesting is what is actually proposed by those who push a Minority Languages Act instead of allowing an Irish Language Act and then actually engageing with the other language communities to see what their needs actually are.

You really have to ask yourself why it is so important that anything but an Irish language act be allowed? Do you really think it is just a meaningless semantic arguement that they are making or is the purpose to frustrate the demands of Irish speakers by trying to trap the Irish language with a bunch of other languages in totally different positions, with a lowest common denominator approch.

I can only be clear on the argument that I am making, which is for a Minority Languages Act with appropriately different provisions depending on the language.

The first part of the Act would contain general principles about respect for culture, tradition and languages. Then you would have separate parts for each language. Such a structure could allow for other languages to be added over time, or changes to the measures for each language.

There are people outside of the genuine Irish language community who are using the Irish Languages Act for their own political purposes and have no real interest in the language.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 3:48pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was n'er a woord about Ulster Scots until the GFA and the Ulster Scots Agency ( Boord O Ulster-Scótch - I kid you not! ) was only set up after it, with John Laird deputised to make Ulster Scots as important as Irish.
Fairly clear to me how it is being used for nefarious political purposes.

There you go again, blatantly trying to put down the other side.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 3:48pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Wait a minute, I am proposing a Minority Languages Act, that will include provision for signs in Irish, for Irish schools, for some public services in Irish etc., yet somehow that means I am on the unionist side?

See some sense. You are way off the mark, buddy.

No, you are a proposing an act that will play directly into belligerent stubborn Unionist hands. A fairly blatant crude attempt to draw away and dilute support for Irish.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 3:50pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There you go again, blatantly trying to put down the other side.

I am putting down an attempt to put down the Irish language. I am an Ulster man, I own, and love the dialects of my people as much as anyone.

There is a huge difference. And your inability to see it is only matched by your delusion that you think we don't know what you are doing.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 3:51pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There are people outside of the genuine Irish language community who are using the Irish Languages Act for their own political purposes and have no real interest in the language.

True, mainly unionist polititions.

There seems to be little enough reason to favour that approch over a stand alone Irish Language Act along with a more general Culture Act. If other language communities, such as Ulster Scots, want to make the case for legislative protections for their language then it is for them to make the case. As far as I am aware they are currently not interested in doing so. They should not be shoe-horned into an act for no other reason than to prevent the existance of a stand alone Irish Language Act.

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 3:59pm

blanch152 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was n'er a woord about Ulster Scots until the GFA and the Ulster Scots Agency ( Boord O Ulster-Scótch - I kid you not! ) was only set up after it, with John Laird deputised to make Ulster Scots as important as Irish.
Fairly clear to me how it is being used for nefarious political purposes.

There you go again, blatantly trying to put down the other side.

Just looking on bbc i player and in the Northern Ireland section there's 3 programmes about Ulster language and dialects which I'm certainly going to have a look at.

_blaaz · 17-07-2019 6:13pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Just looking on bbc i player and in the Northern Ireland section there's 3 programmes about Ulster language and dialects which I'm certainly going to have a look at.

Ulster scots has a sister near identical dialect in america,its remarkably inconsistant to say its a dialect there,and a language here?

Kinda like how donegal gaeltacht irish is different to kerry and an rinn one

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 6:29pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Ulster scots has a sister near identical dialect in america,its remarkably inconsistant to say its a dialect there,and a language here?

Kinda like how donegal gaeltacht irish is different to kerry and an rinn one

To be fair, the clasification of languages and dialects is a grey area and there is no satisfactory objective metric to make the destinction between one and another. Claims to languagehood or counter claims that a given mode of speach is merely a dialect is almost always a politicised question. Not sure where the quote came from but it is often said that "a language is a dialect with an army and navy behind it".

You often had cases of languages/dialects being suppressed around Europe becasue the government in question wanted to impose their perfered language on the nation as a whole. You had many languages dismissed as regional dialects of the dominant language.

The politicised nature of the issue can be seen in the dismissive attitude some posters have displayed regarding Ulster Scots, though it sholuld be noted that Unionists can often be just as dismissive. That's why I think it's a pity that Ulster Scots is misused in debates about the Irish language. It really has been used by Unionism as an atempt to create a counter point to Irish. It should really be left to develop in its own way in its own time with support for its own needs and not forced into competitions with the needs of the Irish lanugage.

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 6:34pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Ulster scots has a sister near identical dialect in america,its remarkably inconsistant to say its a dialect there,and a language here?

Kinda like how donegal gaeltacht irish is different to kerry and an rinn one

Slightly off on a tangent but these`s a community in Argentina which speaks Welsh,not sure how that happened!

Junkyard Tom · 17-07-2019 6:53pm

I predict, within a generation, the northeast will have the highest number of Irish speakers per capita largely due to Unionists' spitefulness when it comes to the historic native language.

Unionists really couldn't have made a bigger balls of normalisation of the North than they have in the last few years - no wonder non-unionists are looking to Dublin and Unification. Keep up the good work Unionism.

downcow · 17-07-2019 7:00pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

To be fair, the clasification of languages and dialects is a grey area and there is no satisfactory objective metric to make the destinction between one and another. Claims to languagehood or counter claims that a given mode of speach is merely a dialect is almost always a politicised question. Not sure where the quote came from but it is often said that "a language is a dialect with an army and navy behind it".

You often had cases of languages/dialects being suppressed around Europe becasue the government in question wanted to impose their perfered language on the nation as a whole. You had many languages dismissed as regional dialects of the dominant language.

The politicised nature of the issue can be seen in the dismissive attitude some posters have displayed regarding Ulster Scots, though it sholuld be noted that Unionists can often be just as dismissive. That's why I think it's a pity that Ulster Scots is misused in debates about the Irish language. It really has been used by Unionism as an atempt to create a counter point to Irish. It should really be left to develop in its own way in its own time with support for its own needs and not forced into competitions with the needs of the Irish lanugage.

.....by some unionists. Please don’t generalise.

downcow · 17-07-2019 7:02pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I predict, within a generation, the northeast will have the highest number of Irish speakers per capita largely due to Unionists' spitefulness when it comes to the historic native language.

Unionists really couldn't have made a bigger balls of normalisation of the North than they have in the last few years - no wonder non-unionists are looking to Dublin and Unification. Keep up the good work Unionism.

Tom first time I have agreed with you. I think you are exactly on it there. It’s the same reason marches and bonfires are increasing in size. Nationalists have made a balls of it

Junkyard Tom · 17-07-2019 7:20pm

downcow wrote: »

It’s the same reason marches and bonfires are increasing in size. Nationalists have made a balls of it

'False balance' downcow. I'd say most of the (pro)unionist responses in this thread could be filed under false balance so I guess it's to be expected.

downcow · 17-07-2019 9:19pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

'False balance' downcow. I'd say most of the (pro)unionist responses in this thread could be filed under false balance so I guess it's to be expected.

I was agreeing with you. The biggest boost the marching bands got in decades was sf setting up residents groups. It was a catalyst for pumping so much energy into the whole band scene.
And I have no doubt the constant attacks on 11th night in last few years has increased interest and attendance.

I do think that the resistance to the Irish language by unionists is probably doing it a favour long term. Culture stuff is strongest when people feel it’s under threat.

If sf formed groups in Cornwall to attack morris dancing I have little doubt morris dancing would mushroom in interest and numbers.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 10:05pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I predict, within a generation, the northeast will have the highest number of Irish speakers per capita largely due to Unionists' spitefulness when it comes to the historic native language.

Unionists really couldn't have made a bigger balls of normalisation of the North than they have in the last few years - no wonder non-unionists are looking to Dublin and Unification. Keep up the good work Unionism.

They have marched up cul-de-sac after cul-de-sac, alienating their own and destroying any last vestiges that they are reasonable people to deal with in the motherland too.

Three times May tried to throw them under the bus and still they can not seem to let go of the 'not an inch' ideology and siege mentality.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 10:16pm

downcow wrote: »

.....by some unionists. Please don’t generalise.

Sure, there are plenty of unionists on the ground who don't engage in this and I don't mean to suggest otherwise. I was speaking about the political leadership of the unionist community, not every unionist on an individual basis.

downcow · 17-07-2019 10:25pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have marched up cul-de-sac after cul-de-sac, alienating their own and destroying any last vestiges that they are reasonable people to deal with in the motherland too.

Three times May tried to throw them under the bus and still they can not seem to let go of the 'not an inch' ideology and siege mentality.

Wishful thinking again francie. It’s going to take a bigger bus

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 10:28pm

downcow wrote: »

Wishful thinking again francie. It’s going to take a bigger bus

Boris is good with buses.

Honestly, if you are a DUP Unionist you have to be petrified at the minute. If you are not, then there is the reason you keep finding yourself in cul-de-sacs right there.

janfebmar · 17-07-2019 10:38pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

... they are reasonable people to deal with in the motherland too.

And as for the other side, they could hardly be called reasonable people to deal with, being absentionists but still taking money out of Westminster. Still, better than the days of them putting bombs in pubs and shops and outside mcDonalds.

Odhinn · 17-07-2019 10:47pm

janfebmar wrote: »

And as for the other side, they could hardly be called reasonable people to deal with, being absentionists but still taking money out of Westminster. Still, better than the days of them putting bombs in pubs and shops and outside mcDonalds.

Earlier in the thread you claimed it would cost 7 billion for equal treatment of the irish language. Do you have a source for that claim?

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 10:52pm

janfebmar wrote: »

And as for the other side, they could hardly be called reasonable people to deal with, being absentionists but still taking money out of Westminster. Still, better than the days of them putting bombs in pubs and shops and outside mcDonalds.

The conflict/war is over 20 years now jan. Still some people under siege and denying rights to certain sections though. But not for much longer, because those they want to be a part of have decided enough is enough and they are going to be dragged into the modern age, like it or not.

janfebmar · 17-07-2019 11:08pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Earlier in the thread you claimed it would cost 7 billion for equal treatment of the irish language.

Equal treatment? :rolleyes: The cost of boards.ie giving equal treatment to your posts alone and translating them in to Irish would be at least how much? According to the Irish times, the high cost of external Irish translation - currently €43 per page, is almost twice the €22 average cost. Did you know the EU IS now hiring 62 Irish language translators for its institutions in Brussels and Luxembourg. The recruitment drive is part of a plan to recruit up to 180 Irish language speakers between now and the end of 2021. The seven billion figure for N. Ireland is a guesstimate based on the cost of new signage on roads, streets, public buildings, in hospitals, the extra cost of translating and printing bi-lingual versions of government documentation, forms etc.

If you were working for a company, a private company or a public quoted company like Ryanair - the quickest way to alienate and confuse its customers and bankrupt it would be to print all signage and documentation in Irish as well as English.

janfebmar · 17-07-2019 11:15pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The conflict/war is over 20 years now jan. Still some people under siege and denying rights to certain sections though.

You are right there Francie. The greatest right of all is the right to live. And the IRA (some version of the IRA) still denying that right to certain people every now and again. ...the last time being in Derry not too many months ago.

I think if you had the guts to say the paramilitaries were wrong, it would move thins on a bit.

The glorious 12th

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