Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Cookie_Monster · 15-07-2019 02:04AM

Nody wrote: »

Try New Zealand lamb. NZ et Al are pushing for the previous EU + UK total quantity to be moved to EU. As UK imported quite a bit those volumes will go into EU27 and I'd not be surprised if they may increase further with a updated FTA.

NZ lamb is a huge export and is cheaper in the UK then it is here in NZ as a result of the external demand.

First Up · 15-07-2019 07:50AM

Lackadaisical wrote:

It'd be a *bit* hard to do considering they haven't managed to maintain a government very successfully.

I said I wouldn't be surprised if they give it a go - not that they should or that they would succeed. Northern Ireland is complicating Brexit and Brexit is certainly complicating Northern Ireland.

We'll see where things go but this is about more than where customs checks happen. The EU will deal with stuff like that; the UK has to sort itself out and that's going to take a while.

volchitsa · 15-07-2019 09:08AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NZ lamb is a huge export and is cheaper in the UK then it is here in NZ as a result of the external demand.

I'm not sure I understand this post correctly : NZ lamb is cheaper in the UK than it is in NZ?

I can see ways that that could happen but external demand alone doesn't make a product more expensive in its own country? Do you mean they choose to export rather than to sell at home so that what's available in NZ becomes a luxury product? Or is all lamb a top-of-the-range product in NZ?

Peregrinus · 15-07-2019 09:39AM

NZ does export a lot of lamb, not least because they produce a great deal of it, and have a small population which couldn't possibly consume such a quantity. However relatively little of it goes to the UK, which is a big producer of lamb itself - France, Belgium, Germany, the USA and Japan each take more NZ lamb than the UK does. Belgium is in fact the largest consumer of NZ lamb, taking about twice what the UK takes.

The huge bulk of NZ lamb is exported, which makes New Zealand a price taker as regards lamb - NZ lamb is priced based on what the world markets will pay, and they'll pay quite well because NZ lamb is premium lamb. NZ consumers pay the same price or, quite simply, they get no lamb; producers will not accept a lower price from NZ buyers than they can get from foreign buyers.

Within NZ the price of lamb is quite volatile, but this is largely because the NZ dollar is a volatile currency. When the NZ dollar falls, the price of NZ lamb in New Zealand rises because, despite the fact that its produced in New Zealand, the main buyers are abroad, bidding in foreign currency, and the NZ purchasers have to match that bid.

lawred2 · 15-07-2019 09:40AM

Guiness is more expensive here than many export markets.. does that mean anything?

Peregrinus · 15-07-2019 10:05AM

NZ Lamb is more expensive in NZ than in many other countries for the same reason as Guiness is more expensive in Ireland: tax. As already noted, New Zealanders pay world market prices for their lamb. But, on top of that, they pay a Goods and Services Tax (equivalent to VAT) of 15%. Many countries have VAT, GST, sales taxes or similar, but most of them have an exemption for food. New Zealand's GST has no exemption for food.

reslfj · 15-07-2019 10:22AM

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand this post correctly : NZ lamb is cheaper in the UK than it is in NZ?

I can see ways that that could happen but external demand alone doesn't make a product more expensive in its own country? Do you mean they choose to export rather than to sell at home so that what's available in NZ becomes a luxury product? Or is all lamb a top-of-the-range product in NZ?

1. The producer will try to get the highest possible price for every lot/batch he sells.

2. Long term the price must be higher than production cost, but can be much higher.

3. This is one reason why our countries have rules for free competition - to keep sellers (somewhat) honest.

4. UK and NZ have different VAT systems, and I think different VAT rates for food.

5. Tariffs are very high (60%) for lamb/sheep, but NZ has a no/low tariff quota into the EU. The split of this quota is one item where the roll over of EU trade agreements currently is in trouble (EU product standards, seems to have been rolled over)

6 The end user/consumer price is about the worst place to compare prices realistically. What matters most to the country is the net import price = the loss of hard currency.

Lars

jm08 · 15-07-2019 10:36AM

New Zealand is exporting lamb into the Asian market which has really opened up to themselves and Australia. The problem that NZ has is that the lamb shipped to Europe is not a premium product because it is frozen and mostly imported to fill a gap at certain times of the year.

France was always the big market for British lamb (Northern Ireland exports a lot there through Irish ports), but the french are not eating as much lamb as they used to and have switched to importing a lot more from Spain.

Joe_ Public · 15-07-2019 06:49PM

https://twitter.com/JayBhattNL/status/1150749330523000833

For my sins i watched the whole of Politics Live on bbc this morning and this wasn't the worst thing this particular bright spark from the BP came out with, but it was by far the most stupid. I find such inanity comforting because it suggests to me that when a GE campaign comes and you have the BP coming out with their bile (Farage and Widdlecombe) and utter moronic half-wittery (everyone else) they will drive voters away with every broadcast.

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 07:06PM

Haha, was just about to share that one.
It's amazing - incredible - the level of ignorance and stupidity on display. And righteous anger to accompany it!

That woman is the 'Director' of 'Leavers Britain'.. Whatever that is. Embarrassing.

I'm starting to think that all Brexiteers are just bloody thick. Either that or they have a vested interest in Brexit. There can surely be no other explanations or mitigating factors?

How can you still fight for Brexit at this point? I mean really. At least when the vote was held, people weren't properly informed and had swallowed misinformation and lies. But now that these have basically all been disproved, how can there still be so much support?

Joe_ Public · 15-07-2019 07:13PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Haha, was just about to share that one.
It's amazing - incredible - the level of ignorance and stupidity on display. And righteous anger to accompany it!

That woman is the 'Director' of 'Leavers Britain'.. Whatever that is. Embarrassing.

I'm starting to think that all Brexiteers are just bloody thick. Either that or they have a vested interest in Brexit. There can surely be no other explanations or mitigating factors?

How can you still fight for Brexit at this point? I mean really. At least when the vote was held, people weren't properly informed and had swallowed misinformation and lies. But now that these have basically all been disproved, how can there still be so much support?

I believe the BBC actually created her, and are at least partly responsible for the monster that is the Brexit Party. Not entirely their fault as, for balance purposes, they had to accommodate the Leave faction and Lucy Harris, for whatever reason, seemed a permanent fixture on BBC panels last 12-18 months, coming out with some spectacular drivel that saw her all the way to the Euro Parliament.

Some other great contributions today: on the Trump racist comments, she stated that it wasn't "a black and white issue." (I'm not joking!). In that clip above, you can see the guy to Cable's left actually trying hard not to burst out laughing.

Also on politics live a couple of weeks back, there was a section where Jo Coburn was asking a Labour and Tory rep about their party policies and then turned to the BP MEP on the panel and everybody, including the BP person, automatically started sniggering and tittering. It's just all a huge absurd joke. You'll notice Coburn never goes in hard on the BP reps, either she feels sympathy for them or thinks it's a waste of time. You might as well put a big orange pumpkin in the chair as you'll get an equal amount of sense out of it.

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2019 07:30PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Haha, was just about to share that one.
It's amazing - incredible - the level of ignorance and stupidity on display. And righteous anger to accompany it!

That woman is the 'Director' of 'Leavers Britain'.. Whatever that is. Embarrassing.

I'm starting to think that all Brexiteers are just bloody thick. Either that or they have a vested interest in Brexit. There can surely be no other explanations or mitigating factors?

How can you still fight for Brexit at this point? I mean really. At least when the vote was held, people weren't properly informed and had swallowed misinformation and lies. But now that these have basically all been disproved, how can there still be so much support?

Pedant that I am, I went to their About page:

Ever had to hide the fact you’re a Leave voter from friends, family and work colleagues?
Left out at work and fallen out with loved ones because you voted for what you believe in?
Lost friends over Brexit? Want to make some new, better ones?

You’re in the right place!

Leavers of Britain (LofB) is an online AND offline community bringing like-minded people together across the UK.

Whether it’s a friendly drink after work, or coffee and cake at the weekend, Leavers of Britain supports people like you to network, make new friends and bring your community together as we leave the EU. Together we can heal social divisions across the country and make a positive difference in Brexit Britain.

Love this bit:

After the referendum, Leave voters were accused of being either thick, racist or too old to matter. .

ancapailldorcha · 15-07-2019 07:41PM

Mod: Please don't just paste tweets of Brexiters looking silly here please. This is a discussion forum, not a link repository.

Leroy42 · 15-07-2019 07:47PM

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 08:11PM

Alistair Campbell has an article in the Guardian today about being not just 'post truth', but also 'post shame'.

Farage, Johnson et all have been caught out on so many lies and deciets but just keep going, no shame no embarrassment. Whatever about Johnsons dead cat on the table comment. This stuff also relates to Trump.

It's this dumbing down of discourse which leads any idiot to think they are capable of being a leading politician. Theres an unbelievable gaggle in the EU parliament now. I would love to see a deep analysis on the Brexit Party candidates - a thorough expose if you will - where do they come from? What are their qualifications, their experience? But, there they are, voted in in huge numbers, not a bother. No manifesto needed, just shout 'Brexit! We wont Brexit!'.

Political discourse and the calibre of politicians themselves have really gone right down the toilet. At least in France the Gilet Jaunes were entertained as far as the protests were concerned, but when it actually came to sending them to the EU parliament? Haha, no.

First Up · 15-07-2019 08:21PM

J Mysterio wrote:

Alistair Campbell has an article in the Guardian today about being not just 'post truth', but also 'post shame'.

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 08:24PM

First Up wrote: »

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

I guess it's a fair point, but at least on Brexit, he is on point.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 08:25PM

First Up wrote: »

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

No harm in taking the advice of a former master poisoner when he’s trying to alert you to novice but powerful poisoner at work

lawred2 · 15-07-2019 08:27PM

First Up wrote: »

Campbell is in no position to lecture anyone about post truth and post shame but we don't need him to expose the likes of Farage.

I'm somewhat disappointed to see the Guardian helping Campbell's rehabilitation. He should be in jail.

If anyone else said what he said - would you still disagree? The above reads like playing the man and not the ball.

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 08:28PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

Bizarre. Do you have a link?

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2019 08:31PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

I guess it's a fair point, but at least on Brexit, he is on point.

My enemy's enemy is my friend.

Leroy42 · 15-07-2019 08:51PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

Gove and Johnson have noth stated that a time limit or a unilateral right to exit from the backstop does not improve it.

Thus only a removal will do.

No deal it is.

Bizarre. Do you have a link?

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1150835579925540864?s=09

Joe_ Public · 15-07-2019 09:27PM

If both Johnson and Hunt are insisting on the backstop being removed, does that make no deal a more likely outcome than a GE? How likely would either be to pass a vote of confidence on the basis they were intending to run the clock down to a halloween crash out?

I believe in the HoL today they were discussing the Northern Ireland bill and debating a crucial amendment that would ensure the Commons had to sit in September and October, thus ruling out the option of proroguing. Not sure what has happened but it did have cross party support. Also, heard Andrew Adonis on sky earlier insisting parliament would pass legislation in october not just to rule out no deal but to enable a referendum. I don't know the basis of his conviction on that, but i dont know that it can be ruled out either as we seem to be moving into unprecedented territory here.

15-07-2019 09:37PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Pedant that I am, I went to their About page:

....

Love this bit:

After the referendum, Leave voters were accused of being either thick, racist or too old to matter. .

A sentiment that reflects the opinion of about 50% of the UK population and about 98% of the posters in this thread.

Cookie_Monster · 15-07-2019 09:42PM

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand this post correctly : NZ lamb is cheaper in the UK than it is in NZ?

Yep, even with transport costs it is much cheaper, literally half the price and GST or not thats crazy. The quality is better too in general, all the best stuff gets exported from here

https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/sainsburys-new-zealand-lamb-chops--basics-800g
GBP5.70 per kg is NZD 11
https://shop.countdown.co.nz/shop/browse/meat/lamb/lamb-chops
NZD19 per kg, 16.5 before tax...

anyway, off topic at this stage, apologies.

ancapailldorcha · 15-07-2019 10:09PM

Posts deleted. No more insults please.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-07-2019 11:02PM

Hunt and Johnson are leading the UK up the garden path on the backstop

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 11:15PM

John Crace on latest Tory leadership debate. I'm sad I missed it and must find it soon.

Guardian wrote:

Brexit dominated the first 45 minutes and as expected neither man had any answers. But then a lack of realism has been the default position of both Boris and Hunt throughout and they weren’t about to change now. Brexit was something that would happen providing you believed in it enough. What had been missing was someone who would look the EU in the eyes and tell them we were mad and self-destructive enough to trash the entire country to get things done. Of course there would be casualties along the way, but true patriotic Brits should be prepared to lay down their lives so that everyone who survived could be made poorer.

On and on the nonsense went. Both men unilaterally ditched the Northern Ireland backstop and put their faith in alternative border technologies that did not yet exist. Boris even promised to take back control by increasing immigration. Not exactly what many Brexiters had voted for, but trust in politics is now so low that no one really cares what anyone says. Coherence is a state to which no one now even aspires. Lying is now truth.

Link

Professor Moriarty · 15-07-2019 11:19PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

John Crace on latest Tory leadership debate. I'm sad I missed it and must find it soon.

Link

Very succinct but captures their disingenuous stupidity beautifully.

Asitis2019 · 15-07-2019 11:51PM

Why is our own parliament not sitting for a full eight weeks. It is ridiculous that parliament resumes only a couple of weeks before the budget and six weeks before Brexit.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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