Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Inquitus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is actually downright scary. The UK after 3 years of chaotic steering looks like it is now going to be rudderless.

Laughable, but then that's all Bojo is at the end of the day!

sandbelter

declanflynn wrote: »

I'm a beef farmer and first time poster here, I cant wait for the UK to go, the sooner the better I say, was worried but now I don't care, maybe we can send more beef to Europe to replace British lamb there is no getting tru to the Brexit supporters but I'm gonna try here��

I think your future is in Asia....China should become the world biggest beef importer in 2020, it's per capita consumption levels are only 16% that of "the west" and growing consistently and strongly. Then there's Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Viet Nam and Singapore...but China's the prize. As a result of domestic scandals including the sale of 30 year old Zombie meat imports are preferred. The other thing that sell very well in China is imported baby formula.



Australia and New Zealand went through this in 1973, for all their talk about a free trade agreement with the UK they followed the money into Asia and thrived. They've been very clear that won't redirect Asian exports into Britain, they make too much money in Asia.

PopePalpatine

spacecoyote wrote: »

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1149760225098063872

Boris being caught with his pants down on the details of Gatt 24.

I'd think if you're making your argument around it, you should have actually read more than just the one paragraph that suits the point you're trying to make

I doubt that the will of 0.2% of the people will waver much if they were ever exposed to this.

Inquitus

sandbelter wrote: »

They've been very clear that won't redirect Asian exports into Britain, they make too much money in Asia.

Aye and it's on their doorstep relatively.

Robert McGrath

J Mysterio wrote: »

'Out by Christmas' - haha, can't beat that.

Worrying echoes of the First World War, alright

Nody

declanflynn wrote: »

I'm a beef farmer and first time poster here, I cant wait for the UK to go, the sooner the better I say, was worried but now I don't care, maybe we can send more beef to Europe to replace British lamb there is no getting tru to the Brexit supporters but I'm gonna try here😉

Try New Zealand lamb. NZ et Al are pushing for the previous EU + UK total quantity to be moved to EU. As UK imported quite a bit those volumes will go into EU27 and I'd not be surprised if they may increase further with a updated FTA.

Capt'n Midnight

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's amazing how many Brexiteers are hoping for appeasement from the EU given how the well British appeasement worked out for Europe in the past :rolleyes:

You mean like Chamberlain in 1938?

PropJoe10

spacecoyote wrote: »

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1149760225098063872

Boris being caught with his pants down on the details of Gatt 24.

I'd think if you're making your argument around it, you should have actually read more than just the one paragraph that suits the point you're trying to make

Shocking, but not surprising. In a strange way I'm quite looking forward to seeing Boris as PM and I'd say Theresa May is too, because her title of "worst UK PM in history" isn't going to last long once BoJo gets going.

Spanish Eyes

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Shocking, but not surprising. In a strange way I'm quite looking forward to seeing Boris as PM and I'd say Theresa May is too, because her title of "worst UK PM in history" isn't going to last long once BoJo gets going.

And she might even grow a pair of steel and appoint a new Ambassador to US before she steps down, (remain leaning of course), then Johnson will either have to sack him and reappoint a Brexit leaning Ambassador, or deal with Trump all over again for not doing what Trump decrees.

That would be fun.

J Mysterio

spacecoyote wrote: »

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1149760225098063872

Boris being caught with his pants down on the details of Gatt 24.

I'd think if you're making your argument around it, you should have actually read more than just the one paragraph that suits the point you're trying to make

Painful viewing. At least May was briefed when she constructed her nonsense. Scary stuff.

Spanish Eyes

J Mysterio wrote: »

Painful viewing. At least May was briefed when she constructed her nonsense. Scary stuff.

Doesn't matter. He is not being chosen by the general population, and it seems he is a shoo in with the Tory membership. That is scary and speaks so much for Democracy too. But I suppose he can be ousted in time.

I think at last, a light has been shone on this so called demigod. He has bluffed and blustered his way through life with Eton as his passport.

Anyway, he will be eaten up by the EU negotiators really, at this stage I'd say they are just bewildered at what is going on.

He will get his comeuppance for bluffing, and I think he knows this now, but will still bluff and bluster anyway.

It is very difficult to keep an open mind on the acuity of the British who would welcome his PMship. They are not all Tory members who can vote for his leadership either.

InTheShadows

J Mysterio wrote: »

Painful viewing. At least May was briefed when she constructed her nonsense. Scary stuff.

Genuine question, what's scary about it?

Headshot

I see it's civil war in the Labour party. Corbyn allies attacking Tom Watson. More anti-Semitism arising.

It's amazing how one man and is cohorts are destroying a party from with in. The labour party is very broken, it really reflects politics as a whole in the UK though.

Any other opposition party would be so far head in the polls due to the Tories destroying their own country but it's not happening, it really says alot.

When the next General Elections happen, it will be the end of Corbyn as he wont get near the PM position.

Unfortunately for Labour, the lasting affects of Corbynism will be long and will take years to recover from

Kermit.de.frog

Labour need a Blair if they are ever to be taken seriously. They have to occupy the sensible side of the middle ground to be in gov't.

Not possible with Corbyn.

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Labour need a Blair if they are ever to be taken seriously.

Ha ha! And people are deriding Boris as Trumps poodle!


At least Trump hasn't killed hundreds of thousands of innocents yet in an unprovoked war of aggression, unlike Dubya and his lapdog Blair.

Spanish Eyes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Labour need a Blair if they are ever to be taken seriously. They have to occupy the sensible side of the middle ground to be in gov't.

Not possible with Corbyn.

I do realise that Blair is persona non grata now, but he did something for Labour, got them elected for years! But we know all about the invasion of Iraq now and so on. So he was rightly kicked out.

The middle ground is usually where it works IMO.

Labour is dead with all the Momentum and Anti Semitism issues, they are stuffed and will not see power anytime soon. Voters would hold their noses and vote Tory to keep him out, and I include moderate Labour voters in that.

Tories are worse, they are going to elect an idiot for PM.

I think gains may go to Greens and LibDems. They are the only kind of middle ground left really for astute voters right at the minute.

But that requires a GE. We shall see. I don't see Brexit Party doing anything to frighten anyone now. The voters will gravitate back to the recognised parties. See gains for LDs though.

Joe_ Public

spacecoyote wrote: »

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1149760225098063872

Boris being caught with his pants down on the details of Gatt 24.

I'd think if you're making your argument around it, you should have actually read more than just the one paragraph that suits the point you're trying to make

It would be hilarious if the consequences weren't so grim. What they are basically saying is, on 1 Nov, they'll get together with the EU and they'll scribble a primitive agreement together (a "one-pager") saying they're intending to work towards a FTA and then, ta da, present that to the WTO as evidence to get the tariff free G24 allowance.

That is what the EU has been dealing with for the past 3 years, a bunch of fools going into rooms with serious negotiators who have actually read the small print and know the detail. They're being laughed out of it all over Europe and now Trump is joining in too. A total basket case, could nearly be terminal at this stage!

mickoneill31

InTheShadows wrote: »

Genuine question, what's scary about it?

For me it's how he tries to bully Neil by pretending he's an expert "get the detail right" and then in the next sentence it's apparent he didn't really know the detail. If 5c isn't done then 5b doesn't matter. But he'd rely solely on 5b.

As well as that he's talking about leaving on no deal and then continuing with the existing agreements. I'm no trade expert but I'd imagine the EU might have some questions about the withdrawal agreement. He should know this. Either he doesn't and he's an idiot or he does and he will say anything to get the job. Which is the less scary scenario?

And finally, this is the quality of the most likely PM of the UK. If this is the best the UK can come up with then the UK is shagged and we're in for a rough time.

Spanish Eyes

The next incumbent for PM is either stupid or grandiose or a bluffer.

Have the UK ever had to deal with International Agreements where they may have to compromise up to now?

I doubt it. And they will get a baptism of fire I think. Unless the EU caves in and agrees to everything the UK wants.

Joe_ Public

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I do realise that Blair is persona non grata now, but he did something for Labour, got them elected for years! But we know all about the invasion of Iraq now and so on. So he was rightly kicked out.

The middle ground is usually where it works IMO.

Labour is dead with all the Momentum and Anti Semitism issues, they are stuffed and will not see power anytime soon. Voters would hold their noses and vote Tory to keep him out, and I include moderate Labour voters in that.

Tories are worse, they are going to elect an idiot for PM.

I think gains may go to Greens and LibDems. They are the only kind of middle ground left really for astute voters right at the minute.

But that requires a GE. We shall see. I don't see Brexit Party doing anything to frighten anyone now. The voters will gravitate back to the recognised parties. See gains for LDs though.

I agree with a lot of this, particularly about the BP, have said it for a while now, i dont think they will do as well as a lot of commentators are suggesting at the moment. Wait for an election campaign and the likes of Widdlecombe going around spouting her inane, offensive drivel and that will drive the moderates away. Farage has very noticeably steered clear of any policy direction so far and he knows from all his UKIP experience that his true policies hold little electoral appeal with the wider electorate. That, i believe, is a problem for him.

Blair did make Labour electable, much more than he ever believed himself, but i'd ask at what cost to the movement's soul? And i'm not just talking about Iraq. Labour without that leftist input - without the militant part, that is - isnt all that far removed from a conservative set-up from what i can see. Not even certain what it is that drew Blair to Labour in the first instance, though i'd imagine a certain amount of simple opportunism or expediency was involved. Personally, i think Brown would have left a better legacy.

O'Neill

Sorry don’t agree, whatever problem labour are currently having, going back to what they were ie status quo should not be on the agenda.

By and large Corbyn’s ideas are very popular imo. His manifesto is just basic social democracy.

Aidric

mickoneill31 wrote: »

For me it's how he tries to bully Neil by pretending he's an expert "get the detail right" and then in the next sentence it's apparent he didn't really know the detail. If 5c isn't done then 5b doesn't matter. But he'd rely solely on 5b.

As well as that he's talking about leaving on no deal and then continuing with the existing agreements. I'm no trade expert but I'd imagine the EU might have some questions about the withdrawal agreement. He should know this. Either he doesn't and he's an idiot or he does and he will say anything to get the job. Which is the less scary scenario?

And finally, this is the quality of the most likely PM of the UK. If this is the best the UK can come up with then the UK is shagged and we're in for a rough time.

Neil picked him apart easily with the facts. When presented with the facts Johnson tried to bait Neil by calling him choleric on more than one occasion. To his credit Neil ignored his baiting and stuck to the facts.

Johnson is a chancer with no grasp of detail.

Stop moaning ffs

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Labour need a Blair if they are ever to be taken seriously. They have to occupy the sensible side of the middle ground to be in gov't.

Not possible with Corbyn.

Easily the only sensible thing you’ve ever posted. Well done.

Spanish Eyes

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I agree with a lot of this, particularly about the BP, have said it for a while now, i dont think they will do as well as a lot of commentators are suggesting at the moment. Wait for an election campaign and the likes of Widdlecombe going around spouting her inane, offensive drivel and that will drive the moderates away. Farage has very noticeably steered clear of any policy direction so far and he knows from all his UKIP experience that his true policies hold little electoral appeal with the wider electorate. That, i believe, is a problem for him.

Blair did make Labour electable, much more than he ever believed himself, but i'd ask at what cost to the movement's soul? And i'm not just talking about Iraq. Labour without that leftist input - without the militant part, that is - isnt all that far removed from a conservative set-up from what i can see. Not even certain what it is that drew Blair to Labour in the first instance, though i'd imagine a certain amount of simple opportunism or expediency was involved. Personally, i think Brown would have left a better legacy.

Labour's biggest loss was the untimely death of John Smith. In my opinion obviously.

But we are where we are now.

Joe_ Public

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Labour's biggest loss was the untimely death of John Smith. In my opinion obviously.

But we are where we are now.

+1

First Up

Spanish Eyes wrote:

Labour's biggest loss was the untimely death of John Smith. In my opinion obviously.

They might have recovered from that - and even from Blair's disastrous decisions on Iraq - if they had chosen the right Miliband.

Spanish Eyes

Labour under Corbyn and Momentum and anti Semitisim and all the rest of it is fkd

But if they want to self destruct who am I to object. They should know this already.

The middle ground will find traction for many Imo. Pity they don't know who that is.

FartyBlartFast

First Up wrote: »

Spanish Eyes wrote:

Labour's biggest loss was the untimely death of John Smith. In my opinion obviously.

They might have recovered from that - and even from Blair's disastrous decisions on Iraq - if they had chosen the right Miliband.

That one always confused me, right down to the surface level fickle stuff that these parties need to consider when choosing leaders. One looks a bit like McNulty from The Wire, but instead they went with the unk own cousin from Wallace and Gromit.

Like I said, fickle. But the media presentation of Ed vs David Cameron said all it needed to on this front, and it turned PMQs into a regular session of David Cameron picking on the smaller kid with the high pitched, nasally voice. That in itself did a huge amount of damage to them, in my opinion, and that's before we even go into policy etc.

Joe_ Public

The GWH for Labour might be Starmer, i think. I hate the idea that he might be a classic Blairite - i hate that that is still a term over a decade after his departure - but he's steered a good line on brexit, insisting behind the scenes that the party stays shackled to its CU position and i suspect he could be a good bridge between left and right of the party and not just someone who'll steer a rigid centre path for electoral purposes.

InTheShadows

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Labour need a Blair if they are ever to be taken seriously. They have to occupy the sensible side of the middle ground to be in gov't.

Not possible with Corbyn.

So now war criminals are "sensible". Jesus wept.