The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:03pm

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent. Would you call for the removal of the illegal shrine to people found guilty of sectarian killings in my town? Or the stuff on the main road near me eulogising the hunger strike terrorists?
And are you saying Irish language signage is ok but union flags are not?

Irish language signage and the Union jack used to triumphalise or intimidate have no similarity.

Time for Unionism or elements of it to grow up and stop with the silly comparisons.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:06pm

downcow wrote: »

Are you really saying that it is fine for you to enjoy watching England or Cavan to lose because they are your neighbour but it different when I enjoy watching roi lose?

Your last para really shows the problem. You don’t accept I am British even though the gfa says you must.

Never said any such thing.
yoi can bet everything you own every single one of those people voted for brexit see you as Irish. They can rarely summon enough intelligence or knowledge to know Northern Ireland’s a separate entity. *they* would be pretty unhappy seeing their flag at such events with such horrific behaviour.

Just to add. 67% of the Conservative party recently polled said they’d be happy to be rid of Northern Ireland if it meant getting brexit it through.

That’s gotta sting eh?

RobMc59 · 15-07-2019 6:15pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Never said any such thing.
yoi can bet everything you own every single one of those people voted for brexit see you as Irish. They can rarely summon enough intelligence or knowledge to know Northern Ireland’s a separate entity. *they* would be pretty unhappy seeing their flag at such events with such horrific behaviour.

I think it`s you`d be in for a rude awakening in regards to what British people think of the unionists in NI-there are many people in Scotland and England who feel a close affinity with them-they are British,they stood shoulder to shoulder in times of trouble and they have every right to fly the Union flag.

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:20pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think it`s you`d be in for a rude awakening in regards to what British people think of the unionists in NI-there are many people in Scotland and England who feel a close affinity with them-they are British,they stood shoulder to shoulder in times of trouble and they have every right to fly the Union flag.

These the same Unionists that the Tories have tried to sell out 3 times so far over Brexit?

downcow · 15-07-2019 6:20pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Irish language signage and the Union jack used to triumphalise or intimidate have no similarity.

Time for Unionism or elements of it to grow up and stop with the silly comparisons.

Francie I am being honest and sincere and trying to understand you.

We live in a contested society in the north.
It’s my guess that most nationalists who put up Irish signage do so to represent their identity and culture. And I know that most unionist who put up union flags do so to represent their identity and culture.

I guess many nationalists feel like the union flags have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise.
I know that many unionists feel like the Irish signs have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise

That’s the comparison for me. Does that make any sense to others on here? Or are you with francie ie unionist = bad, Irish = good

_blaaz · 15-07-2019 6:21pm

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent.

Its known he literally shot an injured person crawling on the ground in the back

People supporting him,in knowlegde of this fact are supporting murderers and in no position to critise anyone for supporting republican (or loyalist?) Terrorists imo

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:26pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think it`s you`d be in for a rude awakening in regards to what British people think of the unionists in NI-there are many people in Scotland and England who feel a close affinity with them-they are British,they stood shoulder to shoulder in times of trouble and they have every right to fly the Union flag.

Times of trouble? When was that exactly?

downcow · 15-07-2019 6:26pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Its known he literally shot an injured person crawling on the ground in the back

People supporting him,in knowlegde of this fact are supporting murderers and in no position to critise anyone for supporting republican (or loyalist?) Terrorists imo

Many things are ‘known’ here I know my ira neighbours who killed my unionist neighbours but they haven’t been convicted in a court of law so I have to get on with things. And if they were arrested tomorrow I would have no problem with graffiti appearing on walls in support of their release which no doubt it would. Soldier f is currently innocent

armaghlad · 15-07-2019 6:27pm

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent. Would you call for the removal of the illegal shrine to people found guilty of sectarian killings in my town? Or the stuff on the main road near me eulogising the hunger strike terrorists?
And are you saying Irish language signage is ok but union flags are not?

Here’s where we differ. Soldier F is not innocent. He has already stated via inquiry that he killed four civilians and shot several others. Whether that constitutes murder is what he is soon to be tried of. So, yes, he’s technically innocent of murder, but he still quite blatantly emptied his magazine into several teenagers and a man waving a white handkerchief. I find it incredibly crass, antagonistic, insensitive and insulting for him to receive such widespread open support, especially in mixed town/village centres. If we are going to talk about illegal memorials, there are countless examples on both sides in housing executive estates on gable walls and council land. I’m not calling for removal of such memorials on either side. As for the union flag, to be clear, I don’t support it being flown from lampposts, not least in so-called shared space, such as my town centre, ditto tricolour. Unless there is some form of pre-agreed protocol.

_blaaz · 15-07-2019 6:28pm

downcow wrote: »

Many things are ‘known’ here I know my ira neighbours who killed my unionist neighbours but they haven’t been convicted in a court of law so I have to get on with things. And if they were arrested tomorrow I would have no problem with graffiti appearing on walls in support of their release which no doubt it would. Soldier f is currently innocent

Meh....just saying those who support soldier f are supporting murderers (how you think this is up for debate,is beyond me)

RobMc59 · 15-07-2019 6:30pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Times of trouble? When was that exactly?

WW2 for a start,Belfast was blitzed along with other major UK cities -NI soldiers served with honour in the defence of Britain.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:32pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

WW2 for a start,Belfast was blitzed along with other major UK cities -NI soldiers served with honour in the defence of Britain.

I must have imagined the memorial to the 60,000 irish troops that joined the British army for wwii. And the German bombs dropped In Dublin and Wexford.

Belfast always the victim alone though eh?

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 6:33pm

downcow wrote: »

Many things are ‘known’ here I know my ira neighbours who killed my unionist neighbours but they haven’t been convicted in a court of law so I have to get on with things. And if they were arrested tomorrow I would have no problem with graffiti appearing on walls in support of their release which no doubt it would. Soldier f is currently innocent

Yeah, this is where you have lost me also. There is no defending 'Soldier F'.

RobMc59 · 15-07-2019 6:36pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I must have imagined the memorial to the 60,000 irish troops that joined the British army for wwii. And the German bombs dropped In Dublin and Wexford.

Belfast always the victim alone though eh?

I've met Irish men who fought in the British army against Germany and would never disrespect their bravery and sacrifice.

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:37pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie I am being honest and sincere and trying to understand you.

We live in a contested society in the north.
It’s my guess that most nationalists who put up Irish signage do so to represent their identity and culture. And I know that most unionist who put up union flags do so to represent their identity and culture.

I guess many nationalists feel like the union flags have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise.
I know that many unionists feel like the Irish signs have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise

That’s the comparison for me. Does that make any sense to others on here? Or are you with francie ie unionist = bad, Irish = good

Nobody wants to put up Irish signage to threaten or intimidate Unionists. There is even a clause in the proposals that will allow unionists who feel threaten by a street or townland being called by it's Irish name to object and not have it put up.

Street Signage
Legislation should be put in place at local council level to ensure that bilingual
street signage should be available in Irish where there is a demand for it.

https://cnag.ie/images/Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_Thuaidh/15M%C3%812017_Pl%C3%A9ch%C3%A1ip%C3%A9is_ar_Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_Thuaidh.pdf

Unionists wish to display their flag where it isn't wanted and have indulged in much much violence attempting to get that right, as well as parading where they are not wanted.

There is no comparison here

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:44pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've met Irish men who fought in the British army against Germany and would never disrespect their bravery and sacrifice.

The war memorial in islandbridge is very grand. But the one in glasnevin is better. Lot more subtle. Plus Glasnevin is always worth a a visit

FullSizeRender-1.jpg?itok=HX3zBAbY

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:57pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The war memorial in islandbridge is very grand. But the one in glasnevin is better. Lot more subtle. Plus Glasnevin is always worth a a visit

Contrary to the perceived notions about DeValera and the new Irish state, the Islandbridge project was a very much thought out gesture to the sacrifices made.

DeValera's 1930's government made a very substantial fund available to build it in a time of little state money.

Sunny Disposition · 15-07-2019 7:01pm

Don’t get the banners up supporting Soldier F, in advance of a trial. If he’s guilty he’s at least as bad as an IRA man. How can the Unionists not see that? Hope there’s a silent majority of them who do see it?

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 7:04pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Contrary to the perceived notions about DeValera and the new Irish state, the Islandbridge project was a very much thought out gesture to the sacrifices made.

DeValera's 1930's government made a very substantial fund available to build it in a time of little state money.

Particularly weird when you look at arbour hill. All those patriots executed by the Brits and dumped in effectively a mass grave.
They’re good at respecting the dead normally. Just not their own in this case.

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:16pm

armaghlad wrote: »

Here’s where we differ. Soldier F is not innocent. He has already stated via inquiry that he killed four civilians and shot several others. Whether that constitutes murder is what he is soon to be tried of. So, yes, he’s technically innocent of murder, but he still quite blatantly emptied his magazine into several teenagers and a man waving a white handkerchief. I find it incredibly crass, antagonistic, insensitive and insulting for him to receive such widespread open support, especially in mixed town/village centres. If we are going to talk about illegal memorials, there are countless examples on both sides in housing executive estates on gable walls and council land. I’m not calling for removal of such memorials on either side. As for the union flag, to be clear, I don’t support it being flown from lampposts, not least in so-called shared space, such as my town centre, ditto tricolour. Unless there is some form of pre-agreed protocol.

So you completely avoided addressing equivalents. And I may differ but will have respect for you if you are consistent.
How Dow you feel about the incredibly crass, antagonistic, insensitive and insulting hunger strike banners. Are they any different than the soldier f ones.?
How do you feel about all the Irish language stuff going up on street corners etc?

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:23pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody wants to put up Irish signage to threaten or intimidate Unionists. There is even a clause in the proposals that will allow unionists who feel threaten by a street or townland being called by it's Irish name to object and not have it put up.

https://cnag.ie/images/Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_Thuaidh/15M%C3%812017_Pl%C3%A9ch%C3%A1ip%C3%A9is_ar_Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_Thuaidh.pdf

Unionists wish to display their flag where it isn't wanted and have indulged in much much violence attempting to get that right, as well as parading where they are not wanted.

There is no comparison here

The main Irish language group here said they would demand them on the shankill road whether people want them or not.

We regards to not putting them where people don’t want them. Maybe you’d tell my council cause they are getting them defaced weekly in unionist areas

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 7:27pm

downcow wrote: »

The main Irish language group here said they would demand them on the shankill road whether people want them or not.

Link downcow, link. Anecdote isn't enough. And that Irish group if they exist would have to SHOW there was a demand. I take the numbers on the Shankill would not back them up.

We regards to not putting them where people don’t want them. Maybe you’d tell my council cause they are getting them defaced weekly in unionist areas

They are all over Fermanagh and I haven't seen one defaced yet.

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:28pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Meh....just saying those who support soldier f are supporting murderers (how you think this is up for debate,is beyond me)

It’s not that people are defending the actions of soldier f. It is that they/we are defending his right to be treated like everyone else.
Unionists are looking at some of the most evil killers as MLAs etc with royal pardons yet one soldier is being followed because he cooperated with a £100m+ investigation. Where is the justice for the Protestant farmer murdered on the border by the ira or the catholic murder by the shankill butchers in Belfast.
And you know the vast majority of the banners you are talking about don’t mention soldier f as people don’t want to antagonise

Cryptopagan · 15-07-2019 7:29pm

downcow wrote: »

It’s not that people are defending the actions of soldier f. It is that they/we are defending his right to be treated like everyone else.
Unionists are looking at some of the most evil killers as MLAs etc with royal pardons yet one soldier is being followed because he cooperated with a £100m+ investigation. Where is the justice for the Protestant farmer murdered on the border by the ira or the catholic murder by the shankill butchers in Belfast.
And you know the vast majority of the banners you are talking about don’t mention soldier f as people don’t want to antagonise

Who got a royal pardon?

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:32pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Link downcow, link. Anecdote isn't enough. And that Irish group if they exist would have to SHOW there was a demand. I take the numbers on the Shankill would not back them up.
.

There you go now. There’s a link on bbc as well if you google it. And Doug Beattie is the most moderate in UUP so it’s not happening https://uup.org/news/5386/Conradh-na-Gaeilge-comments-on-BBC-indicate-exactly-what-is-meant-by-an-Irish-Language-Act-Beattie#.XSzGKiXTXYU

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:33pm

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Who got a royal pardon?

I think you know. I assume they cannot be named on here

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:35pm

downcow wrote: »

I think you know. I assume they cannot be named on here

It’s ok I see one of them had openly admitted it
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/24/former-old-bailey-bomber-gerry-kelly-admits-receiving-royal-pardon

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:37pm

And then there is the letters of comfort. Over 200 issued. Every single one to Republicans. So any wonder soldier f is getting some support

endainoz · 15-07-2019 7:39pm

downcow wrote:

And then there is the letters of comfort. Over 200 issued. Every single one to Republicans. So any wonder soldier f is getting some support

Was this not a condition of the GFA? Genuine question, also did no loyalist in prison ever get a pardon?

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 7:39pm

How can anyone be threatened by someone else’s language? It’s their heritage leave them to it. You aren’t being forced to learn it.
Trying to eradicate it really isn’t a good look and will lose you the moderate votes.
It’s 2019 ffs not the 1900s

The glorious 12th

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