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Ireland Under 20 2019 6 Nations and World Championships

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    #1982
    baas baa
    Registered Users Posts: 589 ✭✭✭baas baa


    Buer wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if there was a better passer we have ever had at U20 level. Stringer is the only one in his league, for me. At U20 level, McGrath was a terrible passer. Marmion was average at best. Conor Murray couldn't even get his game ahead of Matt Healy!

    Shanahan was actually not too bad but that may be because he was replacing Luke McGrath who played passing roulette. Place your bets and see where the ball ends up.

    Marmion had a very floaty pass which seemed to hang in the air for an age, still don't think he's entirely eradicated it from his game.


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    #1983
    realhorrorshow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Nick McCarthy has quite a good pass IMO although I can’t specifically remember him at u20 level.


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    #1984
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Stephen Kerins had a very impressive World Cup in 16, iirc his passing was excellent and probably the best part of his game. Hasn’t broken through for Connacht yet but should get chances at the start of this season with Marmion away at World Cup.


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    #1985
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Didnt see game as working but while disappointing to finish 8th after the 6 nations still very good year

    A grand slam, just 3 losses from 10 games in the year
    2020 pools are:
    France, Wales, NZ, Trophy Winner
    Australia, England, Ireland, Fiji
    Argentina, South Africa, Italy, Georgia


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    #1986
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,142 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Awfully tough group. But, teams change every year.
    France have really come on these last 2 years. You would think the senior team will benefit.
    It's a shame we finished so low after a cracking 6nations. But, that's were our depth is really lacking.


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    #1987
    kingofthekong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kingofthekong


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Awfully tough group. But, teams change every year.
    France have really come on these last 2 years. You would think the senior team will benefit.
    It's a shame we finished so low after a cracking 6nations. But, that's were our depth is really lacking.

    I dont think our depth was lacking, I think the opposite we were still able to compete with an injury raveged squad

    No other country had even a fraction of the injuries we suffered

    Also other countries can call up talented player who are still in School , we cant do that so as soon as a few injuries take place the standard can drop off fast

    England and France regularly bring in extremely talented 18 year olds etc we cant do that unfortunatley


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    #1988
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,178 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    So Clarkson, Deeny, Ahern, Paddy Kelly, McCann, McKee, Milne and Moloney all to come back next season. That's a fairly solid crop. Potentially the bulk of a starting pack.

    If this season taught us anything it's that there may be the need for a focus on defensive work or the presence of someone with good defensive acumen on the coaching staff. 155 points conceded in 5 games in the JWC and, in the Grand Slam campaign, we still conceded 92 points which is much better but it's also against sides like Scotland (who were relegated entirely from the JWC) and on poor pitches during winter.

    I don't think there should be wholesale emphasis on defence as this level should be as much about cultivating confidence and encouraging players to be comfortable at a higher level. But there's items such as our back three defence which was consistently terrible from us.


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    #1989
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,142 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Defense was very poor last year too! It's strange cos I thought they'd have focused on that aspect of our game.


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    #1990
    Heymans
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Heymans


    kingofthekong wrote: »
    I dont think our depth was lacking, I think the opposite we were still able to compete with an injury raveged squad

    No other country had even a fraction of the injuries we suffered

    Also other countries can call up talented player who are still in School , we cant do that so as soon as a few injuries take place the standard can drop off fast

    England and France regularly bring in extremely talented 18 year olds etc we cant do that unfortunatley

    You'd have to ask questions as to why there were so many injuries.

    On looking at the team against Australia and New Zealand we really looked out on our feet.

    Perhaps over training is the reason?


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    #1991
    kingofthekong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kingofthekong


    Heymans wrote: »
    You'd have to ask questions as to why there were so many injuries.

    On looking at the team against Australia and New Zealand we really looked out on our feet.

    Perhaps over training is the reason?

    I wouldve said the six nations is hugely physical and really deplets the six nations teams players and often means the souther hemisphere teams are fresher by the time the JWC comes around

    ^ But having said that Ireland were the only team to really suffer that badly

    Maybe overtraining, lack of physical maturity compared to other teams, not as good s&C or diet.

    Could also just be bad luck but Ireland seem to get hit with a ton of injuries every year


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    #1992
    ArmchairQB
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭ArmchairQB


    kingofthekong wrote: »
    I wouldve said the six nations is hugely physical and really deplets the six nations teams players and often means the souther hemisphere teams are fresher by the time the JWC comes around

    ^ But having said that Ireland were the only team to really suffer that badly

    Maybe over training, lack of physical maturity compared to other teams, not as good s&C or diet.

    Could also just be bad luck but Ireland seem to get hit with a ton of injuries every year


    Pushing many to play senior to quickly and manufacturing size to quickly may be a reason for so many injuries. The difference in the size of some of these lads from leaving school to 6 nations & RWC can be staggering. Very few lads coming out of school are ready for 1a or indeed 1b AIL at a decent level. Manufacturing big men in the gym & with suppliments takes a toll on the body


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    #1993
    kingofthekong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kingofthekong


    ArmchairQB wrote: »
    Pushing many to play senior to quickly and manufacturing size to quickly may be a reason for so many injuries. The difference in the size of some of these lads from leaving school to 6 nations & RWC can be staggering. Very few lads coming out of school are ready for 1a or indeed 1b AIL at a decent level. Manufacturing big men in the gym & with suppliments takes a toll on the body

    Many other countries would be doing similar gym programs, perhaps more gym then our lads


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    #1994
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    It's just the nature of how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries, everything about the system points to that happening. The Irish system also picks up injuries much quicker and is a lot more cautious than other countries so a lot of them aren't as big a deal as you'd think just seeing them on paper.

    Also at development level injuries aren't actually the end of the world and sometimes can actually benefit the player just look at James Ryan or to borrow an example from this year's crop Ryan Baird, you could say injuries helped their development.


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    #1995
    mogwai81
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mogwai81


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    It's just the nature of how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries, everything about the system points to that happening. The Irish system also picks up injuries much quicker and is a lot more cautious than other countries so a lot of them aren't as big a deal as you'd think just seeing them on paper.

    Also at development level injuries aren't actually the end of the world and sometimes can actually benefit the player just look at James Ryan or to borrow an example from this year's crop Ryan Baird, you could say injuries helped their development.

    Why do you think it is „the nature of the how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries“? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, just interested in your reasons.
    My main issue with the Irish system is that while it does brilliantly to avoid the players being fatigued by usually not playing 4,5 or 6 games in a row. That system undermines us come World Cup time because the players rarely have to play continuously, compared to the Southern Hemisphere or some European teams.


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    #1996
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    mogwai81 wrote: »
    Why do you think it is „the nature of the how the Irish system works that we get lots of injuries“? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, just interested in your reasons.
    My main issue with the Irish system is that while it does brilliantly to avoid the players being fatigued by usually not playing 4,5 or 6 games in a row. That system undermines us come World Cup time because the players rarely have to play continuously, compared to the Southern Hemisphere or some European teams.

    There's loads of reasons I'll probably miss a few.
    - for majority of squad it's their first season playing mens rugby, be it a couple of games or a whole season that takes its toll on the body.
    - its only the players first/second season in a near professional setup near full-time, compared to some other countries who are in them from 16 at least.
    - most players still juggle playing rugby with work and/or education so they're not full-time like other countries.
    - the 6 nations is very taxing on the body. High intensity games, close together against players that have been in pro set ups for years.
    - the world cup is at the end of a long season that has basically been going for a whole year by the time it comes around.
    - the current Irish coaching philosophy is very much add skill first size second just now you need a certain amount of size to start with but it's not the primary focus at 20s for most, which I completely agree with but it can cause some issues for those first few years out of school.


    I've probably missed a few and articulated some badly but that's the general gist. I reckon if you looked at injury rate of first vs second year 20s that'd be interesting and probably back up a few of my points.


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    #1997
    mogwai81
    Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭mogwai81


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    There's loads of reasons I'll probably miss a few.
    - for majority of squad it's their first season playing mens rugby, be it a couple of games or a whole season that takes its toll on the body.
    - its only the players first/second season in a near professional setup near full-time, compared to some other countries who are in them from 16 at least.
    - most players still juggle playing rugby with work and/or education so they're not full-time like other countries.
    - the 6 nations is very taxing on the body. High intensity games, close together against players that have been in pro set ups for years.
    - the world cup is at the end of a long season that has basically been going for a whole year by the time it comes around.
    - the current Irish coaching philosophy is very much add skill first size second just now you need a certain amount of size to start with but it's not the primary focus at 20s for most, which I completely agree with but it can cause some issues for those first few years out of school.


    I've probably missed a few and articulated some badly but that's the general gist. I reckon if you looked at injury rate of first vs second year 20s that'd be interesting and probably back up a few of my points.

    All your points seem logical. My issue regarding the Irish team above is related to the senior team and not the U20‘s, more suited to the Irish Team thread.


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    #1998
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    DonVito wrote: »
    Niall Saunders was very impressive back in '16. But obviously health issues have set him back a lot.

    Pat Patterson was super at school, didn't feature at 20's and is now rising at Leinster. His cousin, can't remember name was also super that year at schools, not sure what happened to him. But he was brilliant.


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    #1999
    Lucas44
    Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭Lucas44


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    Pat Patterson was super at school, didn't feature at 20's and is now rising at Leinster. His cousin, can't remember name was also super that year at schools, not sure what happened to him. But he was brilliant.

    James Kenny was his name plays for lansodwne 20s and seconds, he wasn’t brilliant at school, he stood out on a very good gonzaga team in 2/3 games, got completely outclassed by Patterson in the Blackrock game, subsequently went on to be capped for Irish 19s due to stewart playing 20s and Patterson getting injured In the final


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    #2000
    Chico Flores
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Chico Flores


    Lucas44 wrote: »
    James Kenny was his name plays for lansodwne 20s and seconds, he wasn’t brilliant at school, he stood out on a very good gonzaga team in 2/3 games, got completely outclassed by Patterson in the Blackrock game, subsequently went on to be capped for Irish 19s due to stewart playing 20s and Patterson getting injured In the final

    It probably still is his name!! :cool:


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    #2001
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,959 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Lucas44 wrote: »
    James Kenny was his name plays for lansodwne 20s and seconds, he wasn’t brilliant at school, he stood out on a very good gonzaga team in 2/3 games, got completely outclassed by Patterson in the Blackrock game, subsequently went on to be capped for Irish 19s due to stewart playing 20s and Patterson getting injured In the final

    That's mad. I reffed their seconds, didn't notice. They'd a super 10 they all called Doc because he's a Doctor. Pretty funny.


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    #2002
    Chico Flores
    Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Chico Flores


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    That's mad. I reffed their seconds, didn't notice. They'd a super 10 they all called Doc because he's a Doctor. Pretty funny.

    He plays for their 20s or their 1s.

    Benched for the entire 2nd half of AIL and started some games.


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