Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Adamcp898 · 16-06-2019 07:05PM

More talk about renegotiating “the deal” using the hand grenade that is “no deal” as their point of leverage. Usual stuff.

Dominic Raab reckons he’s leaving regardless in October and if it comes to WTO rules then he’ll apply the magic fiscal stimulus that is “lowering taxes” to see the country through the bump in the road.

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 07:10PM

weemcd wrote: »

Gove is repeating himself over and over here since the break. They all are to an extent.

Dire stuff. Johnson's next PM regardless, it's a fairly pointless exercise.

The only thing Johnson can do differently now is revoke. I think that might be his plan, couched in terms of a PAUSE for reflection and planning etc. and so on......

I doubt the EU even with the changing of the guard this year will mean anything has changed regarding WA and Backstop. Hopefully!

I would really like that to be the case, but life ain't that simple either is it!

Otherwise we are down another rabbit hole. Again.

Enzokk · 16-06-2019 07:13PM

Come on Stewart, it is not a 550 page document it is a 585 page document. If you don't know how many pages there are, a small detail, how would you know what is in there and why it should be backed?

As for Johnson, he will be taking a beating due to not turning up tonight, but it is early enough to recover in the eyes of the membership as I doubt MP's will stop their support for him.

weemcd · 16-06-2019 07:16PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The only thing Johnson can do differently now is revoke. I think that might be his plan, couched in terms of a PAUSE for reflection and planning etc. and so on......

I doubt the EU even with the changing of the guard this year will mean anything has changed regarding WA and Backstop. Hopefully!

I would really like that to be the case, but life ain't that simple either is it!

Otherwise we are down another rabbit hole. Again.

I'd love to see Revoke myself, if that happens I couldn't see Brexit ever occurring. Unfortunately I doubt Johnson would do that though, he'd probably face too much heat from within his party and further afield. They are truly lost, we've been back and forward over every aspect of leaving with or without a deal with zero progress in the last 2+ years.

Rjd2 · 16-06-2019 07:18PM

Enzokk wrote: »

As for Johnson, he will be taking a beating due to not turning up tonight, but it is early enough to recover in the eyes of the membership as I doubt MP's will stop their support for him.

He won't sadly. The membership are for the most part old and pretty right wing. They wouldn't have much time for channel 4 in the first place.

Roger_007 · 16-06-2019 07:19PM

If the Tory party want to have a genuine choice opposite Boris on their ballot paper, then the only candidate who can offer them that choice is Rory Stewart. All the rest are only slight variations of Boris. Stewart is the only one who has a different roadmap from Boris.
All this, of course, is assuming that the Tory party really do want a genuine choice.

Nody · 16-06-2019 07:21PM

jm08 wrote: »

JAvid has just stated that Ireland are the key to unlocking the problem. OFfer to pay for it and Ireland will drop the backstop.

He is correct, however the price is NI in some form (i.e. border in the sea for goods etc.) which is a price they can't pay due to DUP atm.

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 07:23PM

weemcd wrote: »

I'd love to see Revoke myself, if that happens I couldn't see Brexit ever occurring. Unfortunately I doubt Johnson would do that though, he'd probably face too much heat from within his party and further afield. They are truly lost, we've been back and forward over every aspect of leaving with or without a deal with zero progress in the last 2+ years.

It is a disaster in the making if they go for no deal and they know this.

The awful thing is that neighbouring countries like ourselves and others will suffer badly. The UK is doing itself no favours here. But they don't seem to care. Did they ever?

But they may suffer the most in the long run, not wishing that upon them, but sometimes it crosses my mind!

Water John · 16-06-2019 07:27PM

You can see Gove ticking boxes to address in his head.

Enzokk · 16-06-2019 07:30PM

Ha, Tories complaining about social care for the elderly when they have been in charge for 9 years. The cheek of them.

Rjd2 · 16-06-2019 07:31PM

Roger_007 wrote: »

If the Tory party want to have a genuine choice opposite Boris on their ballot paper, then the only candidate who can offer them that choice is Rory Stewart. All the rest are only slight variations of Boris. Stewart is the only one who has a different roadmap from Boris.
All this, of course, is assuming that the Tory party really do want a genuine choice.

Stewart knows Boris has this won however he also knows its likely Johnson will mess this up so we could have another leadership campaign in the next few years. The last few weeks has been great for enhancing his profile for that campaign.

Gerry T · 16-06-2019 07:34PM

Rory doing great, pity he couldn't get in, he is probably the only one to do a reasonable damage limitation job

gooch2k9 · 16-06-2019 07:34PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Ha, Tories complaining about social care for the elderly when they have been in charge for 9 years. The cheek of them.

They're getting torn apart on twitter over all their priorities. Children entered primary school with the Tories in government and left unable to read and write properly with the Tories still in government.

Not a fan of Guru-Murthy for this gig.

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 07:40PM

Gerry T wrote: »

Rory doing great, pity he couldn't get in, he is probably the only one to do a reasonable damage limitation job

But still, what would that be I wonder?

bilston · 16-06-2019 07:44PM

I'd love to see a head to head debate between Rory Stewart and Boris.

Not that it matters given the electorate that get to vote.

WoollyRedHat · 16-06-2019 07:46PM

No more petty insults please.

BlitzKrieg · 16-06-2019 07:48PM

man Gove trying to get that anti trump vote...

Also If this was leading into a public vote it is clear from the audience that Rory would win

listermint · 16-06-2019 07:48PM

The people voting for this have not been impacted by the last 9 years of Tory rule.

They don't really care for facts nor figures.

They are amped up on a make Britian great again delusion, for which there is only one cure.

Make reality hit home.

Water John · 16-06-2019 07:50PM

Would put Gove and Raab as the weakest on the night.

I like the soft nature of the programme. One doesn't need a dogfight to differentiate candidates.

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 07:54PM

When the SHTF with Johnson eventually, as it probably will, I think RS is positioning himself for future leader/PM.

He is the only one so far that I have seen in the Tory Party that has any overt intelligence and pragmatism.

But that doesn't count at the moment. But keep an eye on him!

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 07:55PM

A shout out to all those who updated the debate for those of us like me who could not access C4 live.

Thanks.

Gerry T · 16-06-2019 08:00PM

Spanish Eyes wrote:

But still, what would that be I wonder?

Probably a hard Brexit followed by a quick negotiation with the EU for a deal, pretty much TMays but rewrapped. 6 months out in the cold followed by a deal, Rory seems to have the intelligence to wrap it up with a bow and sell it internally

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 08:00PM

I often wonder if Johnson is peppering it now.

He knows he is the anointed one and has to deliver. Talk about writing your own epitaph.

And he is supposed to be so clever and intelligent and so on. Meh.

I think he will revoke.

Does Parliament have to ratify that does anyone know?

Joe_ Public · 16-06-2019 08:01PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

When the SHTF with Johnson eventually, as it probably will, I think RS is positioning himself for future leader/PM.

He is the only one so far that I have seen in the Tory Party that has any overt intelligence and pragmatism.

But that doesn't count at the moment. But keep an eye on him!

What odds he'll be a Lib Dem before the end of the year?

weemcd · 16-06-2019 08:05PM

In my own view, this is how the debate went, there was little to no progress made on Brexit policy, so I'll go by their behaviours and how they came across:

1. Stewart - head and shoulders above the rest, only one who seemed to be able to speak outside of soundbites. Could be a future party leader. But not now.

2. Javid - behind Stewart but well ahead of the rest. Fairly affable, seemed relatable for a Tory.

****huge gap***

3. Hunt - fairly anonymous, didn't do much damage but didn't offer very much either.

Dead last - Gove & Rabb - these two numb skulls probably damaged their campaigns. Sound bite after sound bite, empty rhetoric, nothing new suggested. Also came across as very arrogant, self serving and willing to rest on their laurels. Terrible from both.

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 08:08PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

What odds he'll be a Lib Dem before the end of the year?

This is indeed the time for LDems to maximise their vote. And they are doing it AFAIS.

But as for Stewart, I think he will see how the wind is blowing, and decide from there.

He comes across as someone who knows the score, and he knows that many others do not realise the impact of No Deal either.

A few weeks ago I had never heard of him. Now he may be the saviour.

A week sure is a long time in politics!

Joe_ Public · 16-06-2019 08:12PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

This is indeed the time for LDems to maximise their vote. And they are doing it AFAIS.

But as for Stewart, I think he will see how the wind is blowing, and decide from there.

He comes across as someone who knows the score, and he knows that many others do not realise the impact of No Deal either.

A few weeks ago I had never heard of him. Now he may be the saviour.

A week sure is a long time in politics!

Absolutely. I was being a bit glib with the Lib Dem thing, but to be honest, stranger things have happened and i know he sees himself as a dyed in the wool conservative, but i dont see why he wouldnt be entirely at home in the LD.

Only caught last 20 minutes of debate but presenter seemed to suggest that Rory had backtracked on his not joining a Boris cabinet? Was out all day so that would be a dreadful u-turn on what he said on tv this morning, hope i picked that bit up wrong.

gooch2k9 · 16-06-2019 08:14PM

weemcd wrote: »

In my own view, this is how the debate went, there was little to no progress made on Brexit policy, so I'll go by their behaviours and how they came across:

1. Stewart - head and shoulders above the rest, only one who seemed to be able to speak outside of soundbites. Could be a future party leader. But not now.

2. Javid - behind Stewart but well ahead of the rest. Fairly affable, seemed relatable for a Tory.

****huge gap***

3. Hunt - fairly anonymous, didn't do much damage but didn't offer very much either.

Dead last - Gove & Rabb - these two numb skulls probably damaged their campaigns. Sound bite after sound bite, empty rhetoric, nothing new suggested. Also came across as very arrogant, self serving and willing to rest on their laurels. Terrible from both.

I agree Stewart was the only one able to talk off the cuff. All the rest were well rehearsed, Gove and Raab more obviously than the other two. Gove went a bit over the top defending Javid but it was a nonsense question. Hopefullly the BBC debate is better moderated.

I see little difference between Javid, Gove and Hunt. Raab will go nowhere as he is pushing a similar line to Boris. As other posters have said the only show in town in Stewart against Johnson.

Spanish Eyes · 16-06-2019 08:22PM

And Johnson will partake in the BBC debate on Tuesday, when he knows/thinks RS is out of the race.

What a muppet. I have every admiration for those who participated tonight good or bad.

Johnson is toxic to my mind. I cannot wait to see him in a debate.

Joe_ Public · 16-06-2019 08:26PM

It tells you so much about those backing johnson for the leadership that they dont even trust him to cope with these debates and with the wider media in general not to put his massive clown feet in it and trip his campaign up. So why on earth should they then trust him as party leader and of leader of the country at one of the most sensitive times in its modern history? Of course the answer is fairly obvious, all about self-preservation of the party and thats how party politics goes i guess.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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