Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Roger_007

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Did they put an empty chair in the studio or what for Johnson? I refuse to call him B......

The moderator announced at the start that the empty lecturn was there "in case Boris turned up during the debate".

(He actually had a strait face when he said it).

Enzokk

Gove light on details on what deal he would get from the EU and why he would get a deal when May couldn't, at least on my stream which could be delayed.

weemcd

Gove is repeating himself over and over here since the break. They all are to an extent.

Dire stuff. Johnson's next PM regardless, it's a fairly pointless exercise.

Capt'n Midnight

murphaph wrote: »

Ireland is a nett importer of energy too. We are a long long way from self sufficient unfortunately.

We became a nett exporter of electricity in 2016.

And having our main baseload station offline during peak annual demand barely made the news. There's also two large plants up north closing down. We are self sufficient in generating capacity, unless you count fossil fuel imports.

If you are including fuel then IIRC apart from Scotland and Norway the rest of Western Europe imports energy. And a Hard Brexit will bring the pound closer to parity with the Euro which will increase UK energy costs.

BTW India is now sticking tariffs on US goods due to that trade way, not a great time to be looking for trade deals. And India has made no secret that they want visas, visas and more visas.

Enzokk

This is dire, Raab saying going for no-deal will mean the EU will give a deal. Don't tell us the plan Raab, otherwise we will know what your strategy is.

Adamcp898

More talk about renegotiating “the deal” using the hand grenade that is “no deal” as their point of leverage. Usual stuff.

Dominic Raab reckons he’s leaving regardless in October and if it comes to WTO rules then he’ll apply the magic fiscal stimulus that is “lowering taxes” to see the country through the bump in the road.

Spanish Eyes

weemcd wrote: »

Gove is repeating himself over and over here since the break. They all are to an extent.

Dire stuff. Johnson's next PM regardless, it's a fairly pointless exercise.

The only thing Johnson can do differently now is revoke. I think that might be his plan, couched in terms of a PAUSE for reflection and planning etc. and so on......

I doubt the EU even with the changing of the guard this year will mean anything has changed regarding WA and Backstop. Hopefully!

I would really like that to be the case, but life ain't that simple either is it!

Otherwise we are down another rabbit hole. Again.

Enzokk

Come on Stewart, it is not a 550 page document it is a 585 page document. If you don't know how many pages there are, a small detail, how would you know what is in there and why it should be backed?

As for Johnson, he will be taking a beating due to not turning up tonight, but it is early enough to recover in the eyes of the membership as I doubt MP's will stop their support for him.

weemcd

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The only thing Johnson can do differently now is revoke. I think that might be his plan, couched in terms of a PAUSE for reflection and planning etc. and so on......

I doubt the EU even with the changing of the guard this year will mean anything has changed regarding WA and Backstop. Hopefully!

I would really like that to be the case, but life ain't that simple either is it!

Otherwise we are down another rabbit hole. Again.

I'd love to see Revoke myself, if that happens I couldn't see Brexit ever occurring. Unfortunately I doubt Johnson would do that though, he'd probably face too much heat from within his party and further afield. They are truly lost, we've been back and forward over every aspect of leaving with or without a deal with zero progress in the last 2+ years.

Rjd2

Enzokk wrote: »

As for Johnson, he will be taking a beating due to not turning up tonight, but it is early enough to recover in the eyes of the membership as I doubt MP's will stop their support for him.

He won't sadly. The membership are for the most part old and pretty right wing. They wouldn't have much time for channel 4 in the first place.

Roger_007

If the Tory party want to have a genuine choice opposite Boris on their ballot paper, then the only candidate who can offer them that choice is Rory Stewart. All the rest are only slight variations of Boris. Stewart is the only one who has a different roadmap from Boris.
All this, of course, is assuming that the Tory party really do want a genuine choice.

Nody

jm08 wrote: »

JAvid has just stated that Ireland are the key to unlocking the problem. OFfer to pay for it and Ireland will drop the backstop.

He is correct, however the price is NI in some form (i.e. border in the sea for goods etc.) which is a price they can't pay due to DUP atm.

Spanish Eyes

weemcd wrote: »

I'd love to see Revoke myself, if that happens I couldn't see Brexit ever occurring. Unfortunately I doubt Johnson would do that though, he'd probably face too much heat from within his party and further afield. They are truly lost, we've been back and forward over every aspect of leaving with or without a deal with zero progress in the last 2+ years.

It is a disaster in the making if they go for no deal and they know this.

The awful thing is that neighbouring countries like ourselves and others will suffer badly. The UK is doing itself no favours here. But they don't seem to care. Did they ever?

But they may suffer the most in the long run, not wishing that upon them, but sometimes it crosses my mind!

Water John

You can see Gove ticking boxes to address in his head.

Enzokk

Ha, Tories complaining about social care for the elderly when they have been in charge for 9 years. The cheek of them.

Rjd2

Roger_007 wrote: »

If the Tory party want to have a genuine choice opposite Boris on their ballot paper, then the only candidate who can offer them that choice is Rory Stewart. All the rest are only slight variations of Boris. Stewart is the only one who has a different roadmap from Boris.
All this, of course, is assuming that the Tory party really do want a genuine choice.

Stewart knows Boris has this won however he also knows its likely Johnson will mess this up so we could have another leadership campaign in the next few years. The last few weeks has been great for enhancing his profile for that campaign.

Gerry T

Rory doing great, pity he couldn't get in, he is probably the only one to do a reasonable damage limitation job

gooch2k9

Enzokk wrote: »

Ha, Tories complaining about social care for the elderly when they have been in charge for 9 years. The cheek of them.

They're getting torn apart on twitter over all their priorities. Children entered primary school with the Tories in government and left unable to read and write properly with the Tories still in government.

Not a fan of Guru-Murthy for this gig.

Spanish Eyes

Gerry T wrote: »

Rory doing great, pity he couldn't get in, he is probably the only one to do a reasonable damage limitation job

But still, what would that be I wonder?

bilston

I'd love to see a head to head debate between Rory Stewart and Boris.

Not that it matters given the electorate that get to vote.

WoollyRedHat

No more petty insults please.

BlitzKrieg

man Gove trying to get that anti trump vote...

Also If this was leading into a public vote it is clear from the audience that Rory would win

listermint

The people voting for this have not been impacted by the last 9 years of Tory rule.

They don't really care for facts nor figures.


They are amped up on a make Britian great again delusion, for which there is only one cure.

Make reality hit home.

Water John

Would put Gove and Raab as the weakest on the night.

I like the soft nature of the programme. One doesn't need a dogfight to differentiate candidates.

Spanish Eyes

When the SHTF with Johnson eventually, as it probably will, I think RS is positioning himself for future leader/PM.

He is the only one so far that I have seen in the Tory Party that has any overt intelligence and pragmatism.

But that doesn't count at the moment. But keep an eye on him!

Spanish Eyes

A shout out to all those who updated the debate for those of us like me who could not access C4 live.

Thanks.

Gerry T

Spanish Eyes wrote:

But still, what would that be I wonder?

Probably a hard Brexit followed by a quick negotiation with the EU for a deal, pretty much TMays but rewrapped. 6 months out in the cold followed by a deal, Rory seems to have the intelligence to wrap it up with a bow and sell it internally

Spanish Eyes

I often wonder if Johnson is peppering it now.

He knows he is the anointed one and has to deliver. Talk about writing your own epitaph.

And he is supposed to be so clever and intelligent and so on. Meh.

I think he will revoke.

Does Parliament have to ratify that does anyone know?

Joe_ Public

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

When the SHTF with Johnson eventually, as it probably will, I think RS is positioning himself for future leader/PM.

He is the only one so far that I have seen in the Tory Party that has any overt intelligence and pragmatism.

But that doesn't count at the moment. But keep an eye on him!

What odds he'll be a Lib Dem before the end of the year?

weemcd

In my own view, this is how the debate went, there was little to no progress made on Brexit policy, so I'll go by their behaviours and how they came across:

1. Stewart - head and shoulders above the rest, only one who seemed to be able to speak outside of soundbites. Could be a future party leader. But not now.

2. Javid - behind Stewart but well ahead of the rest. Fairly affable, seemed relatable for a Tory.

****huge gap***

3. Hunt - fairly anonymous, didn't do much damage but didn't offer very much either.

Dead last - Gove & Rabb - these two numb skulls probably damaged their campaigns. Sound bite after sound bite, empty rhetoric, nothing new suggested. Also came across as very arrogant, self serving and willing to rest on their laurels. Terrible from both.